I've been playing SR4 for a couple of months, and I only just now learned that you can't target physical targets with M spells from the astral. All this time, my group's mage has been running around Stunbolting unsuspecting people while astrally projected.
I guess that's what you get when you let the mage explain the magic rules to you without bothering to read them carefully for yourself.
Full Version: Fun Rules Mistakes
Hehe, I recognize *that*! In SR3, I briefly had the opinion that I could cast through cover because Astral Perception told me where they were. 
Mine was even more embarrassing. As a new GM to SR4 running the Corporate Punishment module (hacked up to SR4 rules), I had the corp mage astrally projecting and Manifesting and casting Physical spells at mundanes. Not only was it abusive (and how!) to my poor players, it was wildly against the rules. Manifesting gives a projecting mage no benefits at all, it just allows people on the physical plane to see and hear the astral projector. WHOOPS!!! Boy, was my face red! I am just glad my players keep coming back!
QUOTE (Dreadlord @ Apr 11 2010, 11:03 AM) 
Mine was even more embarrassing. As a new GM to SR4 running the Corporate Punishment module (hacked up to SR4 rules), I had the corp mage astrally projecting and Manifesting and casting Physical spells at mundanes. Not only was it abusive (and how!) to my poor players, it was wildly against the rules. Manifesting gives a projecting mage no benefits at all, it just allows people on the physical plane to see and hear the astral projector. WHOOPS!!! Boy, was my face red! I am just glad my players keep coming back!
I'm a long-time gamer/GMer, and getting ready to run SR. My initial read thru on the rules had me questioning those points (spellcasting mana spells at physical while astral) and manifesting to cast at physical. Without providing direct quotes, the SR4 really goes too far into describing how things work that sound like mechanics but really aren't, and a TABLE would clear things up nicely.
Another good one and thankfully described in the FAQ is astral combat. Short of looking at that FAQ, one has to make extrememly deductuitive (<---new word) leaps to figure where to go from Astral Combat + Willpower, C/2 Damage or Weapon Foci for Damage, etc.
I tend to laugh when people talk about having a program 12 and thinking they can just load it on there com link and use it at rating 12. Com links max out at 6 except for very cutting edge stuff. Response 12 com links are possible but very hard to get your hands on and keep. I have made my mistakes when I started. I butchered the combat system my first time out.
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 11 2010, 01:23 PM)
I tend to laugh when people talk about having a program 12 and thinking they can just load it on there com link and use it at rating 12. Com links max out at 6 except for very cutting edge stuff. Response 12 com links are possible but very hard to get your hands on and keep. I have made my mistakes when I started. I butchered the combat system my first time out.
Ahhh... But you can run a Rating 12 Piece of Software on a Rating 6 COmlink, as long as you have the Optimization Option at rating 6...
The problem is actually finding the Rating 12 program to add that Optimization to so that you can use it...
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 11 2010, 03:29 PM)
Ahhh... But you can run a Rating 12 Piece of Software on a Rating 6 COmlink, as long as you have the Optimization Option at rating 6...
The problem is actually finding the Rating 12 program to add that Optimization to so that you can use it...
Keep the Faith
The problem is actually finding the Rating 12 program to add that Optimization to so that you can use it...
Keep the Faith
And then staying alive as the army of hired hackers and other runners sent by the corp to recover said program comb the planet looking for you.
.(grin)
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 11 2010, 08:23 PM)
I tend to laugh when people talk about having a program 12 and thinking they can just load it on there com link and use it at rating 12. Com links max out at 6 except for very cutting edge stuff. Response 12 com links are possible but very hard to get your hands on and keep. I have made my mistakes when I started. I butchered the combat system my first time out.
This is the second time you have said this. Repeated use does not make it any truer.
QUOTE (Page 115 @ Unwired)
Optimization (Rating)
Program Types: Common, Hacking, Autosoft, Simsense
Under normal circumstances, a node’s System rating limits the rating on any software run on that node (see System, p. 213, SR4). A program with the Optimization option is more effective at running on a system with limited resources. Add the Optimization rating to the rating of the System (to a maximum of twice the System’s rating) to determine the maximum rating at which the program can operate.
Program Types: Common, Hacking, Autosoft, Simsense
Under normal circumstances, a node’s System rating limits the rating on any software run on that node (see System, p. 213, SR4). A program with the Optimization option is more effective at running on a system with limited resources. Add the Optimization rating to the rating of the System (to a maximum of twice the System’s rating) to determine the maximum rating at which the program can operate.
As noted before, where the hell are you getting Rating 12 software in the first place? That's the kind of stuff that G.O.D. has in their cutting-edge R&D department.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
We realized near the end of a combat that we should have checked for each shot whether it was powerful enough to do physical instead of stun damage (due to armor.)
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 12 2010, 02:53 AM)
As noted before, where the hell are you getting Rating 12 software in the first place? That's the kind of stuff that G.O.D. has in their cutting-edge R&D department.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
The post I quoted discussed not being able to run Rating 12 Softs at Rating 12. I do not see how difficulty acquiring said Softs factors into the discussion.
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 11 2010, 05:53 PM)
As noted before, where the hell are you getting Rating 12 software in the first place? That's the kind of stuff that G.O.D. has in their cutting-edge R&D department.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
Dice averages being what they are, a starting character min/max'd could write a rating 12, optimized 6 program in around 3 months if you're working alone.
And that's apparently using notepad and a publicly available compiler (no special software).
Throw in a programming suite of software, and a development environment, and it takes 6 weeks working alone.
IMHO optimization should take HUGE amounts of time to code (at least doubling the programming time if not taking longer), and more importantly, shouldn't be usable between different models of comlinks/nodes. After all, the idea of optimization is that you're using the hardware & software you know will be there to cut corners and do things more efficiently. Optimizations that work on one system won't work on another, and may even crash the program. As it stands now, optimization is horrendously broken. It adds I believe 12 more net successes to add optimization 6. That was, according to calculations I did a while back, 3 more weeks to make a nearly beyond-cutting-edge, state of the art program that runs on a rating 6 commlink.
IMO, curtailing the ability for your PCs to code Deus-quality software is one of the primary reasons to implement the -1 die-per-interval rule on extended tests.
I like how spirits are useless. Go read the section about Physical and Mana abilities, and how you can only use Mana abilities on the Astral, then go look at Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation. You'll get it.
I also like how bows/crossbows are useless, since the "Shoot Weapon" action is for firearms only.
I also like how bows/crossbows are useless, since the "Shoot Weapon" action is for firearms only.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 11 2010, 12:29 PM)
The problem is actually finding the Rating 12 program to add that Optimization to so that you can use it...
In addition to writing it himself, which was mentioned earlier, a maximized starting face character should be able to get the rating 26R piece of software in about 3 weeks. Make sure to see the "Verifying Software" section on p109 in Unwired, though. If I was selling a rating 12 hacking program that I wrote, then I'd for darn certain be putting a rating 12 virus of some sort in it (and likely some other optimization as well like limiting it from attacking any node registered to me -- p114, Unwired).
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 11 2010, 09:53 PM)
As noted before, where the hell are you getting Rating 12 software in the first place? That's the kind of stuff that G.O.D. has in their cutting-edge R&D department.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
Besides, you'd still need to find not only Rating 12 software, but Rating 12 software with 6 levels of optimization.
It's actually not that difficult for a decent programmer to write, provided he's got a lot of free time with nothing better to do. A good programmer, with a R5 programming suite can buy hits and do it in 6 tests, followed by 2 more to add the optimization and that's including the dicepool decay for extended tests. If he's got access to a programming nexus, he does the whole thing in 4 months. Since he wrote it himself, it never degrades, and he's free to pass it around to enough people that almost no one knows who actually wrote it.
Edit:
It only requires a dicepool of 15 to buy hits to a threshold of 24 with the decay. 5 dice for the programming suite means you only need a Software skill of 4, a Logic of 4, and 2 more dice from somewhere, like an encephalon, gene therapy, neural amplifiers, or adept powers.
I used to make a ton of mistakes when I first started playing, and I still do to be honest. The most embarrassing one was in 3rd edition (which was when I first tried my hands at a magician) and I didn't realize that you're supposed to divide the Force in half when calculating Drain. I would nearly kill myself on a regular basis because of it, and I would get really frustrated as a result. Of course, since the numbers were high rather than low, no one I was playing with at the time pointed out that mistake. I've always found it odd how people only go out of their way to jump in if you make a mistake that favors your character, but if you're crippling yourself unwittingly they hardly even notice.
I know I've made some even worse mistakes, but I can't really remember them. Hooray for blocked memories!
I know I've made some even worse mistakes, but I can't really remember them. Hooray for blocked memories!
I asked Dixie this in another thread, but no answer: why do you say that a homebrew Program never degrades? I could have sworn that everything except legit corp programs degrade, because they're not getting updates.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 12 2010, 11:34 AM)
I asked Dixie this in another thread, but no answer: why do you say that a homebrew Program never degrades? I could have sworn that everything except legit corp programs degrade, because they're not getting updates.
The errata for Unwired specifies that programs written by the hacker never degrade, implying that software degradation is entirely a corporate profit protection measure.
Wow. Okay. Well, that's totally insane, so there's a new house rule for my group. 
It also doesn't match the reasoning behind open-source degrading. Thanks though!
It also doesn't match the reasoning behind open-source degrading. Thanks though!
Actually, a lot of people misunderstand the errata and mistakenly assume it cuts out all of the original text. Here it is in its entirety:
The emphasis is mine. If you don't want to read it, it basically states that even programs you yourself code will degrade over time and it's up to the GM and the group (via the sidebar) to decide whether or not that's the case.
QUOTE (Unwired + Errata)
Pirated Software
Pirated software—i.e. programs whose copy-protection and activation/validation anti-piracy mechanisms have been bypassed through cracking—are usually distributed by warez sites (see Piracy, p. 94). While pirated programs have the advantage of not being linked to a registered SIN, they are not automatically updated and patched in the same manner as legal software. Without registration and the confirmation that the copy is legitimate and licensed, the software is not authorized to connect to the manufacturer’s update sites.
In game terms, illegal and pirated software—and also programs that a character has coded himself (p. 118)—degrade over time, reflecting that the program is slowly becoming outdated. Hacking and malware programs degrade at the rate of 1 rating point per month; all other programs degrade 1 rating point per 2 months.
Degradation of pirated software owes as much to systemic software and firmware upgrades demanding compatibility updates as to the megacorporations making regular updates an anti-piracy feature. In 2070, obsolescence and latent program degradation is hardcoded into software and is triggered when compromised software is flagged. Patching and upgrades are transformed into a security feature.
Software programmed by the hacker and Open Source programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion. For more on cracked software degradation, see the Warez Degradation sidebar below.
Warez Degradation (Sidebar)
By default Unwired assumes that all forms of cracked software, from agents to autosofts, degrade as described under Pirated Software. Groups, however, are free to adjust what programs are affected by degradation to suit their games and play styles. To reduce book keeping gamemasters may wish to limit degradation to cracked Hacking and Common Use programs, Firewalls, and autonomous constructs (ie. Pilots, IC and agents.) While the remaining types of cracked software would still suffer degradation and enforced obsolescence, the rates at which they degrade would be slower and their effects less obvious.
Pirated software—i.e. programs whose copy-protection and activation/validation anti-piracy mechanisms have been bypassed through cracking—are usually distributed by warez sites (see Piracy, p. 94). While pirated programs have the advantage of not being linked to a registered SIN, they are not automatically updated and patched in the same manner as legal software. Without registration and the confirmation that the copy is legitimate and licensed, the software is not authorized to connect to the manufacturer’s update sites.
In game terms, illegal and pirated software—and also programs that a character has coded himself (p. 118)—degrade over time, reflecting that the program is slowly becoming outdated. Hacking and malware programs degrade at the rate of 1 rating point per month; all other programs degrade 1 rating point per 2 months.
Degradation of pirated software owes as much to systemic software and firmware upgrades demanding compatibility updates as to the megacorporations making regular updates an anti-piracy feature. In 2070, obsolescence and latent program degradation is hardcoded into software and is triggered when compromised software is flagged. Patching and upgrades are transformed into a security feature.
Software programmed by the hacker and Open Source programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion. For more on cracked software degradation, see the Warez Degradation sidebar below.
Warez Degradation (Sidebar)
By default Unwired assumes that all forms of cracked software, from agents to autosofts, degrade as described under Pirated Software. Groups, however, are free to adjust what programs are affected by degradation to suit their games and play styles. To reduce book keeping gamemasters may wish to limit degradation to cracked Hacking and Common Use programs, Firewalls, and autonomous constructs (ie. Pilots, IC and agents.) While the remaining types of cracked software would still suffer degradation and enforced obsolescence, the rates at which they degrade would be slower and their effects less obvious.
The emphasis is mine. If you don't want to read it, it basically states that even programs you yourself code will degrade over time and it's up to the GM and the group (via the sidebar) to decide whether or not that's the case.
True. The GM can arbitrarily decide to reduce its' rating, but the normal rules for software degradation do not apply.
Actually, the first underlined quote states otherwise even post-errata. Which is exactly what I was talking about regarding people misunderstanding the errata. What the errata says is that self-coded programs never degrade because of the pre-programmed sabotaging corporations put into their software... not because of SOTA issues. The latter is dependent upon the GM but (albeit poorly written) the default rule stands unless they say otherwise.
What if you take time to patch your own software to keep it SOTA? Then it won't degrade. The question then becomes, how much time does it take to code and apply a patch?
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 12 2010, 11:53 AM)
Actually, the first underlined quote states otherwise even post-errata. Which is exactly what I was talking about regarding people misunderstanding the errata. What the errata says is that self-coded programs never degrade because of the pre-programmed sabotaging corporations put into their software... not because of SOTA issues. The latter is dependent upon the GM but (albeit poorly written) the default rule stands unless they say otherwise.
It's contradictory enough that I can see the intent being either interpretation. Given the balance problems that arise when players can write R12 hacking programs (worst of all being Stealth), your interpretation is better for the health of a campaign.
Oh, and patching software is an extended test with a threshold of the difference between the base rating and the degraded rating and an interval of 1 week. Compared to how long programming takes, it's a drop in the bucket, especially if you've got nexus access and are willing to use the Rushing the Job option to halve the interval.
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Apr 12 2010, 11:56 AM)
What if you take time to patch your own software to keep it SOTA? Then it won't degrade. The question then becomes, how much time does it take to code and apply a patch?
Extended test, Rating/1 week to patch a program, IIRC. Same as for patching cracked software.
So every month, you'd have to spend at least 1 week (or 3-4 days if you rush it) to patch one piece of software you'd written.
And don't forget that you'd have several programs to keep up to date. There goes your free nights. In addition, IIRC, different kinds of programs take longer… some much longer.
I *knew* no degradation made no sense. Thanks, Dr. F.
In addition, IIRC, different kinds of programs take longer… some much longer.I *knew* no degradation made no sense. Thanks, Dr. F.
QUOTE (DWC @ Apr 12 2010, 10:06 AM)
It's contradictory enough that I can see the intent being either interpretation. Given the balance problems that arise when players can write R12 hacking programs (worst of all being Stealth), your interpretation is better for the health of a campaign.
It's contradictory enough that once one of my players reads up on it, I *will* be having this rules argument.
For the record, in the other thread a few weeks back on this, I argued essentially what was laid out above, which is that the program will still degrade, just not from built in obsolescence.
Even if a Dev comes in and says that we're wrong, that custom written software never degrades, they can jump off a pier. It needs to degrade.
The simple fact is that the errata is talking solely about degradation due to sabotaged programming by the megacorportions. Even using basic logic and common sense, all programs -- even ones you code yourself -- should still degrade due to the constant SOTA wars. The rules, even post errata, still confirm that self-coded programs degrade that way. For some strange reason, the errata just reinforces the idea that this rule (like all of the optional ones relating to SOTA style effects throughout the history of the game) is dependent upon the GM's discretion. Why they foolishly bring it up at random is anyone's guess.
Call it contradictory if you like, but it's clear in intent and the previous paragraph makes it ironclad.
The problem is that the game doesn't take the tenacity of pirates and hackers seriously. They'd set up their own sites and recode software so that they could post the corporate updates and give free access to those updates to everyone who cared to get it. If they're handing out Nuke and Blackout programs, why would they just stop there? Whatever argument you give for that applies equally to the core program itself, so it's totally moot.
Call it contradictory if you like, but it's clear in intent and the previous paragraph makes it ironclad.
The problem is that the game doesn't take the tenacity of pirates and hackers seriously. They'd set up their own sites and recode software so that they could post the corporate updates and give free access to those updates to everyone who cared to get it. If they're handing out Nuke and Blackout programs, why would they just stop there? Whatever argument you give for that applies equally to the core program itself, so it's totally moot.
That's the way it works now, in real life, after all - I'm having trouble believing that the future would be any different. Software degradation is purely a game balance concern (you don't let the sammie manufacture his own 'ware for free) and doesn't really pass the fridge test.
Yet another reason I don't use Unwired.
Yet another reason I don't use Unwired.
I feel like 'purely game balance' is a pretty important factor.
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 13 2010, 10:39 AM)
That's the way it works now, in real life, after all - I'm having trouble believing that the future would be any different. Software degradation is purely a game balance concern (you don't let the sammie manufacture his own 'ware for free) and doesn't really pass the fridge test.
I was always a little bothered by Unwired's software rules. I realize they're for game balance, but there's something wonky about rules that add big incentives for your big bad criminal hacker to buy original software and pay for the updates like a good little citizen
. They kinda painted themselves into a corner by treating software like it was any other piece of physical equipment and making it integral to hacking. I feel that a set of rules that abstracted the software away would have been better. "Hey, you're a big bad hacker. Your OS and all your programs are either open source or expertly cracked warez, and they're the best you could fit into your hardware. So the rules only care about how fast your hardware is, and how good you are at using those programs!"
Also, to keep on topic, I remember a GM who confused wards with physical barriers, and thus completely hosed his group on that second Denver Missions adventure where they go up against a rival shadowrunner team that has a rather weak shaman. "All magicians can put up barriers, so the shaman has littered the entire place with them!"
Yeah, but that would make for a nice, smooth, easy-to-use Matrix system. If it's not grossly overcomplicated and ridiculously confusing, it can't be Shadowrun's Matrix system. Been that way since day one, and I think the developer's heads would explode if they even considered moving away from that, dang blast it! <curmudgeony jig as he shakes his fist in the air>
Yeah its only Shadowrun if magic is as easy as pointing a gun and pulling the trigger.
And the Matrix hacker goes into a world where everything can happen, and both sides (Gm and Player) funble their way along the world.
And the Matrix hacker goes into a world where everything can happen, and both sides (Gm and Player) funble their way along the world.
Speaking of Rule Mistakes, not exactly a rule but I misheard one of my players using control voice (IE: Sound like someone else). I swore he said "Commanding" Voice. Now, up a stairway attempting to lure some gangers out of position to where he wanted to go, he yells 'FUCK!' at the top of his lungs.
Needless to say the result was not the one he expected.
Needless to say the result was not the one he expected.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 12 2010, 02:53 PM)
And don't forget that you'd have several programs to keep up to date. There goes your free nights. In addition, IIRC, different kinds of programs take longer… some much longer.
In addition, IIRC, different kinds of programs take longer… some much longer.Free nights? Talk about your whole life. You can't do runs or do shopping (for the Serious Stuff) when you're patching.
Basically, by RAW (before the "self-made programs never degrade" thing) you could only have 4 self-coded up-to-date programs, ever. And god help you if you try and actually code a new program. Even if it takes a mere 4 weeks, that's 4 weeks you didn't spend patching another piece of software.
At least its better than it used to be. IIRC, SR3's programming build/repair table had hacking programs at 3 month intervals or something absurd like that (system/response was 6 months!)
QUOTE (Wandering One @ Apr 14 2010, 08:24 AM)
Speaking of Rule Mistakes, not exactly a rule but I misheard one of my players using control voice (IE: Sound like someone else). I swore he said "Commanding" Voice. Now, up a stairway attempting to lure some gangers out of position to where he wanted to go, he yells 'FUCK!' at the top of his lungs.
Needless to say the result was not the one he expected.
Needless to say the result was not the one he expected.
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 11 2010, 10:54 AM)
I've been playing SR4 for a couple of months, and I only just now learned that you can't target physical targets with M spells from the astral. All this time, my group's mage has been running around Stunbolting unsuspecting people while astrally projected.
Don't feel so bad... I made that exact same mistake in one of the novels. Oy.
TD
QUOTE (TomDowd @ Apr 13 2010, 11:57 PM)
Don't feel so bad... I made that exact same mistake in one of the novels. Oy.
TD
TD
Which one, if you don't mind my asking?QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 14 2010, 05:19 AM)
Which one, if you don't mind my asking?I think he's referring to Burning Bright, when Kyle is on his astral trip.
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 13 2010, 08:39 AM)
That's the way it works now, in real life, after all - I'm having trouble believing that the future would be any different. Software degradation is purely a game balance concern (you don't let the sammie manufacture his own 'ware for free) and doesn't really pass the fridge test.
Yet another reason I don't use Unwired.
Yet another reason I don't use Unwired.
Honestly i've always hand waved it to the way that legally the corporations can send hit men or military aircraft after software pirates, openly in most cases.
That's kinda going in the wrong direction, IMHO, but it's your game .
.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 14 2010, 02:27 PM)
Honestly i've always hand waved it to the way that legally the corporations can send hit men or military aircraft after software pirates, openly in most cases.
Or how you can buy a copy of BlackHammer, but if you use it on someone, there's a record of the use that the authorities can use to contact the devleoper and get your identity.
"Ah, yes, we have a use of BlackHammer--an illegal-to-own software--developed by your corporation, registered by the key 23892-91824-7999-10942. Can you give us his address?"
"Certainly Investigator." *hands info*
"Thank you kindly."
(Think about that for a minute)
Well, a gun is legal to own, but using it one someone can be very illegal. And then the Investigator looks up the gun's registration…
"Ah, yes, we have a use of BlackHammer--an illegal-to-own software--developed by your corporation, registered by the key 23892-91824-7999-10942. Can you give us his address?"
"Certainly Investigator."
...........
"Hello?"
"Oh you meant will we? No, not without a corporate court order, thank you for calling Renraku legal support line, your credstick has been billed for this call."
That's at least how I figured it goes.
"Certainly Investigator."
...........
"Hello?"
"Oh you meant will we? No, not without a corporate court order, thank you for calling Renraku legal support line, your credstick has been billed for this call."
That's at least how I figured it goes.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 14 2010, 03:10 PM)
"Hello?"
"Oh you meant will we? No, not without a corporate court order, thank you for calling Renraku legal support line, your credstick has been billed for this call."
That's at least how I figured it goes.
"Oh you meant will we? No, not without a corporate court order, thank you for calling Renraku legal support line, your credstick has been billed for this call."
That's at least how I figured it goes.
What I meant was, people like to go on and on about how purchased software (as opposed to pirated/self coded) leaves fingerprints that are traceable back to your SIN because it was legally purchased.
But who in their right minds would think that the developing corp would actually give out that information?
However, if they did, you have to question why the authorities don't crack down on the producers of the software in the first place (hence my usage of Black Hammer: its illegal to own, Renraku could get fined into bankruptcy if anyone knew that it was in use, however, those corps that do use it use it to protect things that are so highly secret it's a crime to get near enough to know that black IC is involved....assuming you survive the cybercombat).
The thing is black hammer is illegal for most people to own just like assault rifles and such. Also corp make there own laws so defenidn there node in there land there are free to use what ever.
Ah, I see your point. Well, 'illegal' assault rifles are just as legal to manufacture, so I think my point stands.
As for Registration not mattering because corps are secretive, I think that's a thin excuse. You're absolutely right that it's not as easy as one phone call from anyone, but I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit software used naughtily. Even without gun registration records, you've got ballistics, after all. Just having that serial number in your example could help a lot.
As for Registration not mattering because corps are secretive, I think that's a thin excuse. You're absolutely right that it's not as easy as one phone call from anyone, but I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit software used naughtily. Even without gun registration records, you've got ballistics, after all. Just having that serial number in your example could help a lot.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 14 2010, 03:37 PM)
I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit softwareused naughtily.
My point is, "legitimately illegal software" makes no sense. Black IC is not legal for anyone to own or manufacture.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 14 2010, 08:37 PM)
Ah, I see your point. Well, 'illegal' assault rifles are just as legal to manufacture, so I think my point stands.
As for Registration not mattering because corps are secretive, I think that's a thin excuse. You're absolutely right that it's not as easy as one phone call from anyone, but I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit software used naughtily. Even without gun registration records, you've got ballistics, after all. Just having that serial number in your example could help a lot.
As for Registration not mattering because corps are secretive, I think that's a thin excuse. You're absolutely right that it's not as easy as one phone call from anyone, but I think logic and RAW provide the GM with enough plausible leeway to track Legit software used naughtily. Even without gun registration records, you've got ballistics, after all. Just having that serial number in your example could help a lot.
And that's not to mention the fact that the corps have a vested interest in at least appearing to be be responsible about spreading around their more dangerous programs. Extraterritoriality provides for manufacturing and selling whatever they please within the bounds of their own territorial authority, but laws be damned: if public opinion is that your corporation is readily putting weapons in the hands of maniacal script kiddies and helping them get away with frying John Q. Wageslave's brain, well, that's probably going to hurt your bottom line.
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