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Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 23 2010, 05:36 PM) *
The same splays with the AK numbers the lateist AK is what the ak-108 but SR is stuck on the 97. And thats excluding the million and one AK derivatives.


I find this above comment very entertaining... SR is not "Stuck" on the 97... I am pretty sure that the SR developers do not rush out each year to bring the consumers another Weapons book just because newer weapons have hit the market... if you want that kind of fluff and crunch, us gamers are quite capable fo bringing that kind of information to the game...

If you feel that you want additional weapons, just stat them... as has been said previously in other threads... most weapons are just derivative... stat them within reason and just move along...

Keep the Faith
Triggvi
double post
Triggvi
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Apr 24 2010, 07:56 AM) *
You haven't actually read the destroying barriers rules, have you? upsidedown.gif


Maybe you need to read the barriers section. I did and my point still stands. Also read shock lock rounds.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 22 2010, 07:13 PM) *
Quite frankly... you're better off taking a SA hunting rifle... modifying it to fire FA, as you can still get a lot of recoil comp on it.


Best one for doing this is the Rifle mode of the AUG... 20 round mag lets you pull off suppressive fire, it comes with a GV1 (hey, I'll take it where I can get it), and you can add a foregrip or bipod, shock pad, and personalized grip to get that up to RC4-5. Screwing a suppressor on over the barrel (and gas vent) makes it a nice little stealthy weapon, and you've got a battle rifle that can cut loose with bursts if you need it.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 25 2010, 04:02 AM) *
Best one for doing this is the Rifle mode of the AUG... 20 round mag lets you pull off suppressive fire, it comes with a GV1 (hey, I'll take it where I can get it), and you can add a foregrip or bipod, shock pad, and personalized grip to get that up to RC4-5. Screwing a suppressor on over the barrel (and gas vent) makes it a nice little stealthy weapon, and you've got a battle rifle that can cut loose with bursts if you need it.


moding the rifle up takes almost all of the mod slots. 4 slot to to go from SA to BF
Yerameyahu
But still plenty of room for what he described: Foregrip (Under), Suppressor (Barrel), Shock Pad, Personalized Grip (1 mod). He's got 1 mod point left, and a top mount free. smile.gif

(No, I'd rather have those mod slots for other things too, but if you really need greater-than-AR range and more-than-sniper RoF… AND less-than-LMG illegality… it's a valid option. biggrin.gif )
Triggvi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 04:53 AM) *
But still plenty of room for what he described: Foregrip (Under), Suppressor (Barrel), Shock Pad, Personalized Grip (1 mod). He's got 1 mod point left, and a top mount free. smile.gif

(No, I'd rather have those mod slots for other things too, but if you really need greater-than-AR range and more-than-sniper RoF… AND less-than-LMG illegality… it's a valid option. biggrin.gif )

changing a the weapon to FA is 5 slots. There is only one SA sport rifle. by Raw rifles are not allowed gas-vents. The aug has 1 pt gas vent stock.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 25 2010, 06:31 AM) *
changing a the weapon to FA is 5 slots. There is only one SA sport rifle. Turning a SS rifle into BF requires 8 slots

What? To make a SS weapon a FA weapon is actually just 3 slots. You don't have to take everything in between.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 25 2010, 06:37 AM) *
What? To make a SS weapon a FA weapon is actually just 3 slots. You don't have to take everything in between.



The big difference being that if you do not, then you have a weapon that has fire rates of: SS, FA... which is perfectly okay, if not a little odd...
Though that change would actually cost 4 for the Large Modification for Firing Selection Change (SS to FA)...

Or you could go SS to SA for 1 Slot, and then SA to FA for 4 more which would cost 5 slots (That dang Large Modification again) and have fire selection of SS, SA, FA... Six slots would get you all of them: SS, SA, BF, FA...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Exactly as I said; and what's this silliness about GV? He said the weapon comes stock with GV1. Anything stock overrides any other rules, *obviously*.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 05:09 PM) *
Exactly as I said; and what's this silliness about GV? He said the weapon comes stock with GV1. Anything stock overrides any other rules, *obviously*.


I just made the point that by raw you can't put a gas vent mod on a rifle. There are exceptions of course like the aug. which I stated.
Shrike30
The nice thing about the Battle Rifle configuration (Aug Rifle + FA + whatever you want) is that you can use it with Longarms. Stunts like this with any other hunting or sniper rifle are less impressive, mostly because you don't have enough magazine capacity to make it worthwhile. If you're going to stick with BF, you can get interesting results with a couple of them (the Desert Strike with an extended mag, at 8P/-3 and an 18 round magazine, is one of these nasty combinations) but the thing that really sells the Aug Battle Rifle to me is the ability to do suppressive fire.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 26 2010, 05:51 AM) *
The nice thing about the Battle Rifle configuration (Aug Rifle + FA + whatever you want) is that you can use it with Longarms. Stunts like this with any other hunting or sniper rifle are less impressive, mostly because you don't have enough magazine capacity to make it worthwhile. If you're going to stick with BF, you can get interesting results with a couple of them (the Desert Strike with an extended mag, at 8P/-3 and an 18 round magazine, is one of these nasty combinations) but the thing that really sells the Aug Battle Rifle to me is the ability to do suppressive fire.


as much as it sounds cool. I would have problems with modifying as modular battle system like that. Once you modify it like that, it would not be a modular battle system anymore. (No RAW on this just common sense)

I thought about adding BF to my Ares Desert Strike my sniper has, but that would mean giving up alot of goodies with my sniper rife.

adding BF to an SA is a major mod and take up 4 slots
Kronk2
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 24 2010, 10:36 AM) *
I find this above comment very entertaining... SR is not "Stuck" on the 97... I am pretty sure that the SR developers do not rush out each year to bring the consumers another Weapons book just because newer weapons have hit the market... if you want that kind of fluff and crunch, us gamers are quite capable fo bringing that kind of information to the game...

If you feel that you want additional weapons, just stat them... as has been said previously in other threads... most weapons are just derivative... stat them within reason and just move along...

Keep the Faith

Although, A subscription based Street Samurai catalog would be cool.
Triggvi
Here is what I would use in close. Enfield AS-7 *(Remove Laser Sight) Total RC 3
Add External Smartgun, Sound Suppressor, Foredrip and Sling (RC +2)

Mods Slots Notes
Extra _ 1 2 Clips
Drum Clips extend clip 2 2 Drum clips with 24 rounds each
Personalized grip 1 RC+1
Improved Range Finder_ 1 -1 range penalties(short and medium ranges -0)

It gives you 48 rounds and you can load different rounds into each drum clip. If I really need suppression fire I exchange the improved range finder for a FA selector (I rounds of suppression fire and I have 8 rounds left).

It gives a lot more firepower than the Aug rifle modified. IF I need the range, I will use my sniper rifle. In close I need lots of ammo and specialized rounds.

Yerameyahu
Assuming you can even have multiple drum 'clips' (another question for your GM), you're still getting 2 (doubled to 4) recoil on two Short Bursts. Maybe you have gyro-arms and 6+ Strength, I dunno.

I do know that this is not really *better* than a modded SMG or AR, which can easily have, 5 RC (for free Long Burst/2xShort Bursts), Suppressor (possibly integral, so -6 instead of -4), and Dual Extended clips (say, 2x50(c ), etc.) If anything, they're all but identical, except no recoil penalties on these, no drum penalties to concealment, better range, Long Burst/FA if necessary, etc.

The whole point of the AUG 'battle rifle' example is that you don't have to carry that sniper rifle, along with your drum-fed shotgun; and the range of a do-everything AR is already quite long in the first place.
Banaticus
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Apr 26 2010, 12:40 PM) *
Although, A subscription based Street Samurai catalog would be cool.

I think I saw that some new Street Sam book is about to come out. I don't know anything else about it, though.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 26 2010, 08:17 PM) *
Assuming you can even have multiple drum 'clips' (another question for your GM), you're still getting 2 (doubled to 4) recoil on two Short Bursts. Maybe you have gyro-arms and 6+ Strength, I dunno.

I do know that this is not really *better* than a modded SMG or AR, which can easily have, 5 RC (for free Long Burst/2xShort Bursts), Suppressor (possibly integral, so -6 instead of -4), and Dual Extended clips (say, 2x50(c ), etc.) If anything, they're all but identical, except no recoil penalties on these, no drum penalties to concealment, better range, Long Burst/FA if necessary, etc.


The whole point of the AUG 'battle rifle' example is that you don't have to carry that sniper rifle, along with your drum-fed shotgun; and the range of a do-everything AR is already quite long in the first place.

since when does a SMG have better range. I am not taking Recoil penalties at all. I am not used shot rounds in the gun(Shells, shock lock, gel or SticknShock). Can an SMG reach out to 150 meters?
IF I am using my little friend I am not concealing anything. I have more ammo and a bigger punch and better suppression. I don't need long bursts.

You can't use a sound suppressor with gas vent(you have to turn off the gas vent. Also a sound suppressor does get a -6 ever. Internal silencer gets -6 not sound suppressor

You also missed the point of the post. SHOTGUNS. If I wanted to use an AR I would. Read more carefully.
Yerameyahu
No, the AR has better range. I said, SMG or AR; they mod in essentially the same way, and use the same skill.

Stop with the condescending 'read more carefully'. First, you said that the shotgun was better (page 1). Then, you just now said that the shotgun had 'a lot more firepower'. The fact is that it doesn't. You don't have more ammo, you get maybe +1DV, you don't have better suppression, and you do want the option of Long Bursts. And, what's wrong with having to turn off the gas vents? You can even get the magic 5 RC without gas vents on some SMGs and ARs. And an internal suppressor does give -6.

I can't understand why you think you don't have recoil penalties, unless you're firing 3 whole slugs in your entire Phase. Hardly a lot of firepower.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 26 2010, 08:38 PM) *
No, the AR has better range. I said, SMG or AR; they mod in essentially the same way, and use the same skill.

Stop with the condescending 'read more carefully'. First, you said that the shotgun was better (page 1). Then, you just now said that the shotgun had 'a lot more firepower'. The fact is that it doesn't. You don't have more ammo, you get maybe +1DV, you don't have better suppression, and you do want the option of Long Bursts. And, what's wrong with having to turn off the gas vents? You can even get the magic 5 RC without gas vents on some SMGs and ARs. … And an internal suppressor does give -6.

I can't understand why you think you don't have recoil penalties, unless you're firing 3 whole slugs in your entire Phase. Hardly a lot of firepower.


I am using my longarms skill. The same one I use my sniper rifle with. That is that reason for this thread. If I want to use an AR or an SMG, I would use one. The recoil is full compensated. Did you read what the context was? NO, obviously not. The context is it is better as a mutli-use platform. The shotgun can use rounds the SMG or the AR can't. (shock lock rounds as an example).

No a internal suppressor doesn't. A internal silencer does. A silencer is limited to SA. Not you can't get magical gas vent 5. There are weapons with special RC build it, but if it says gas vent you are stuck. You may only have 1(syetem) of gas vent even if the gun has gas vent stock.

Yerameyahu
It's right there on Arsenal, p.153. Suppressors and Silencers are only different in which fits your gun.

If you're talking about only using Longarms, then there's no reason to compare anything. You're stuck with the shotgun, or the battle rifle example. However, you *have* been comparing the shotgun to automatics, and it's a comparison that shotguns simply don't win.

Your Enfield has 3 RC. You can fire a grand total of 4 bullets per Phase before you start getting *double* recoil penalties (another drawback of the shotgun). The shotgun is far, far worse as a multipurpose platform.

Besides flechette and Shock-Lock (which hardly count as 'firepower'), what else can the shotgun use that automatics can't?
Dumori
AR with underbarrle shotgun modded to FA/BF (to taste) is my gun of choice atm. Has the range and firepower of a well RC'd AR plus the ability and versatility of a Shotgun.
Yerameyahu
Good point: lack of the vaunted 'Shock-Lock' power solved. smile.gif
Shrike30
Another way to get Shock-Lock rounds into a nice portable package is a Remington Roomsweeper. You lose out on some damage, but for lighter targets it's a lot more portable.

QUOTE (Triggvi)
You can even get the magic 5 RC without gas vents on some SMGs and ARs

QUOTE (Yerameyahu)
Not you can't get magical gas vent 5.

He's talking about 5 points of RC, not a gas vent 5.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu)
And an internal suppressor does give -6.

QUOTE (Triggvi)
You can't use a sound suppressor with gas vent(you have to turn off the gas vent. Also a sound suppressor does get a -6 ever. Internal silencer gets -6 not sound suppressor


There's a semantic issue here regarding sound suppressor+gas vent and the word "use." Your weapon can have both a gas vent and a sound suppressor installed at the same time. You simply can't claim the bonus from both simultaneously (the gas vent must be "turned off"). I'm pretty sure you're both saying the same thing, slightly differently.

QUOTE (Arsenal pg 153)
Silencer/Sound Suppressor: This modification works in the same way as the weapon accessories of the relevant names (pp. 311–312, SR4), but due to its internal nature it provides an improved dice pool modifier of –6 to Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use, rather than –4.


Both the internal silencer and the internal sound suppressor get a -6, per Arsenal. Please show me anything that says otherwise.
AKWeaponsSpecialist
I'm aware this is a bit off topic, but could someone direct me to the origin of the "Battle Rifle"? I can't seem to find it via search
Yerameyahu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle
"In contrast, assault rifles fire smaller intermediate-size cartridges such as the 5.56x45mm NATO round used in the M16, Chinese 5.8x42mm used in the QBZ-95 or the Russian moderate-velocity 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm cartridges of the AK-47, AKM, and AK-74 series of rifles. However, some overlapping of rifle design and cartridge application occurs; for example a few relatively compact selective-fire rifles in 7.62x51mm NATO caliber have been produced."

AFAIK, it usually shoots a little stronger bullets (7.62x51 or 54mm) than an 'assault rifle', and the effective ranges can be a little higher (800m), and maybe it's less likely to have FA. But the line is a little blurry. Basically, a military version of the Sport Rifle.

SR doesn't really have a 'battle rifle' category, although my group spent some time with Wikipedia and <world.guns.ru> to add them in. Figure range between AR and Sniper, maybe 7P/-2, and probably SA and SA/BF? The problem is which skill to use, but I'd say Longarms just because Automatics already has so many things. biggrin.gif
Shrike30
We used sport rifle damage and range. 20 round mag and a fire selector is the primary thing that stands out about most battle rifles.
Yerameyahu
I agree. They're basically the military version of the sport rifle category.
Warlordtheft
Actually they are more like the outgrowth of the M1 Garand/Swedish Ludgnheim (SP?) and other semi automatic rifles to be fully automatic.

The problems in RL:
Recoil
Limited ammo
Bulky/heavy--not good for close quarters combat.


The advantages in RL:
Longer range
Better stopping power

Modeling them in SR---I would take a sport rifle, add BF and/or FA, and expand the ammo capacity.


Yerameyahu
Hehe, I meant in the context of Shadowrun, not historically. smile.gif I wonder if double recoil would be fair, along with the +DV and +range.
Shrike30
Double recoil might be a bit much, though I agree that it'd map reality pretty well. If you allow gas vents to be installed, then double recoil would be cool. As-is, the low amount of recoil comp you can squeeze onto one of these usually keeps the silly huge bursts down to a minimum without having to double whatever you couldn't keep up with. Of course, sticking with short bursts, you can usually keep up with at least the first few rounds worth...

... yeah, go ahead and double the recoil. Nothing like watching someone talk himself into something while he types.
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