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Triggvi
QUOTE (Creel @ Apr 22 2010, 07:09 PM) *
I don't like shotguns because I don't like too much extra noise. silenced smg with caseless is quiet and has a significantly higher ammo capacity. Less reloading in combat, easier to avoid large-scale engagements. If I geek a mook with a 12-gauge somebody's going to come looking; 3 rounds from a silenced hk227, and the loudest noise is him hitting the floor. If shit well and truly hits the fan, the less frequent reloading can be quite handy. Concealability is nice too.


A shotgun with a drum of 24 or more rounds and I don't have to reload often. You know that you can't use sound supressor with gas vent right? Nor can you use a silencer on a SMG.

The noise concern is a fair statement. At the point I am using a shotgun. Noise is the least of my worries. Dropping people and removing doors is.
Udoshi
I'd like to point out that Shotgun Choke/Spread is a rather overlooked rule. As we all know, a hit on the attack is generally worth three on the defense. With choke and burst fire, you can increase your net hits by reducing the defenders pool.

Narrow is the standard Flechette code. (+2dv/+5ap)
Medium spread hits up to two targets who are within one meter ofeach other. +0dv/+7ap, but -2 to the defense roll
Wide hits three targets within one meter, for -2DV/+9ap, but a -4 to the defense pool.
Multi-hitting uses the same attack roll vs all concerned targets. It also stacks with burst fire.

Let's take an AA-12(which has a gasvent2), put an external smartlink and an auto-adjusting weight modification on it, for 6 total points of RC while in FA mode, and see what a long, wide narrow burst on wide choke does.

The AA-12 is 7P/ap-1 base, so with that setting it would do 5P(+nethits) at AP+8, but also gives the defender -9 dice to defend. What that means, is the average runner is not even going to get a chance to roll. If the target is wearing any armor at all, they will almost always be taking stun damage instead.

Let's say the target is someone with a chameleon suit(6ballistic), with reaction 4, dodge4(ranged +2), and, say, an orc with a body of 5. He goes on full defense, and gets a single dice to try to dodge(4+4+2-9) - no hits, so he'll be getting 19(6+5+cool.gif dice to soak the damage.

Our shooter, on the other hand, has a fairly high agility due to some Muscle Toner 2 - say agi 7, a smartlink, and longarms 4(shotguns+2), and a Tacnet 1. 16 dice to shoot with the aa-12.

Buying hits: The shotgunner gets 4 hits on the attack. The ork gets no hits on dodge, and four hits to soak, and takes 5 stun.
Testrolling dice on my end: 3 and 5 the first set(3stun). 5 and 7 the second(3 stun). Which isn't too great at all, but it'd hit anyone nearby the primary target too. Its like a cheap grenade.
In the above example, changing to a narrow burst and buying hits, the ork gets 1 on the dodge roll, 4 on the soak, dealing 10 stun (5base+3hits+5burst). Which isn't bad at all.
Rerolling the above, two attacks for comparison, yielded 6/5 on the attack, 1/2 on the dodge, and 7/7 on the soak. So, 8 and 6 stun damage respectively.

That's an extreme example, though. For general work, medium-choke and short(or long+short) will serve you pretty well. Its also worth noting that due to the multihit rules, if you have some clumped enemies, Edge can let you drop a fairly large brick of damage onto all of them.

So yeah. Shotguns aren't great. But they're not too bad if you know the rules for them.
Creel
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 22 2010, 01:25 PM) *
A shotgun with a drum of 24 or more rounds and I don't have to reload often. You know that you can't use sound supressor with gas vent right? Nor can you use a silencer on a SMG.

The noise concern is a fair statement. At the point I am using a shotgun. Noise is the least of my worries. Dropping people and removing doors is.


True, I failed to distinguish between sound suppressor and silencer.

HK227x has integral SS, there's no reason it can't take a barrel-mounted accessory.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Creel @ Apr 22 2010, 07:40 PM) *
True, I failed to distinguish between sound suppressor and silencer.

HK227x has integral SS, there's no reason it can't take a barrel-mounted accessory.


Raw states that if you use a sound suppressor and gas vent, you get no benefit from the suppressor. There are places a shotgun is a better choice than a SMG. There are places that a SMG is a better choice.

SMG are not very good for opening locked doors. A shotgun is very good at opening locked doors with shock lock rounds. There are advantages to both. Swat teams use both
Yerameyahu
Actually, I'm wondering about the multi-hit rules specifically. I could have sworn that autofire, even with flechette, was specifically *not* like a grenade.
Creel
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 22 2010, 01:51 PM) *
Raw states that if you use a sound suppressor and gas vent, you get no benefit from the suppressor. There are places a shotgun is a better choice than a SMG. There are places that a SMG is a better choice.

SMG are not very good for opening locked doors. A shotgun is very good at opening locked doors with shock lock rounds. There are advantages to both. Swat teams use both


I can understand why RAW would say that, but I'd like to know where. I generally put the seeming contradiction down to a few more decades of engineering.

I agree that there's a time and a place for shotguns, I just prefer to avoid those times and places.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Creel @ Apr 22 2010, 07:58 PM) *
I can understand why RAW would say that, but I'd like to know where. I generally put the seeming contradiction down to a few more decades of engineering.

I agree that there's a time and a place for shotguns, I just prefer to avoid those times and places.

Arsenal pg 152 under gas vents. I have found rules in weird places too.
Nal0n
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 22 2010, 07:24 PM) *
There is no reason it can not be internal. Take a look at the Kriss for excemple.


The KRISS has a totally new developed Operating Action Mechanism that diverts the recoil to another direction then back/up to reduce barrel climb ... and it has it by design, and it's got nothing to do with the barrel/under barrel.

The FN P93 has no such technology by design, but it has to be fitted afterwards to where it seemingly would not fit (a weight moving along the barrel).
I'm not arguing you cound not use an underbarrel weight (just make the right part of the under barrel construction heavier) but in a SMG in bullpup design I do net see enough room under the barrel to fit an auto-adjusting weight.
Creel
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 22 2010, 02:08 PM) *
Arsenal pg 152 under gas vents. I have found rules in weird places too.



Groovy, thanks.

that's not actually all that much of a hinderance. You can have both, and it's a simple (free with smartlink) action to go from sneaky to balls-out.
Yerameyahu
You can turn suppressors and GV on and off, smartlinked or otherwise?
Triggvi
QUOTE (Creel @ Apr 22 2010, 08:23 PM) *
Groovy, thanks.

that's not actually all that much of a hinderance. You can have both, and it's a simple (free with smartlink) action to go from sneaky to balls-out.

The weird part of all this is that a full auto shotgun is easier to use that a full auto SMG. More room for recoil comps and a heavier wpn.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2010, 08:27 PM) *
You can turn suppressors and GV on and off, smartlinked or otherwise?

You can turn the Gas Vent off and on. You can't turn a suppressor on and off. suppressors don't work that way.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2010, 11:57 AM) *
Actually, I'm wondering about the multi-hit rules specifically. I could have sworn that autofire, even with flechette, was specifically *not* like a grenade.


Its in the combat section, right next to the burst fire rules(4a 154). Mechanically, it is not like a grenade. Effectively - in that it blows several close-by people up at once - it is. The multi-hit wording is very similar to that of Miniguns, and the GE Vigilant light autocannon - if other people are within a few meters, they can get hit too.

For multihitting, the attacker makes one attack roll, and uses the results against all viable targets. Unlike grenades, medium spread hits up to two targets, and wide hits up to three. Whereas a grenade would hit everyone within range. Similar, but different.
Creel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2010, 02:27 PM) *
You can turn suppressors and GV on and off, smartlinked or otherwise?


News to me too, chummer.

QUOTE
Arsenal pg. 152
Characters can have a fi rearm equipped with a sound
suppressor or thermal suppressor (p. 153) and a gas-vent system
at the same time; however, the gas-vent system must be turned
off in order to receive the benefi ts from the suppressor. Turning
a gas-vent system on and off requires a Simple Action, or a Free
Action in the case of smartguns.
Yerameyahu
Wow. That's a big change, I didn't notice it in Arsenal at all!

Also, thanks Udoshi. I see what was meant now. I thought it was argued that the *burst fire* did it, not the spread.
DVSman
Wow, the smartgun gasvent thing is news to me. Learn something new every day.
Yerameyahu
Does that mean one has to be a modification/stock and the other has to be an accessory, though? Or 1 stock and one mod works too, I guess.
Falconer
Shrike covered most of the errors but made others..

Auto-Shotguns and heavy weapons suffer DOUBLE recoil penalties (p152 under heavy weapons). So uncompensated recoil is doubly troubling and there's less points available.


Shrike modifies an ares alpha by removing a mod then using the space... per modification rules. Removing a stock feature does not grant extra replacement point.


Quite frankly... you're better off taking a SA hunting rifle... modifying it to fire FA, as you can still get a lot of recoil comp on it.

Falconer
Shrike covered most of the errors but made others..

Auto-Shotguns and heavy weapons suffer DOUBLE recoil penalties (p152 under heavy weapons). So uncompensated recoil is doubly troubling and there's less points available.


Shrike modifies an ares alpha by removing a mod then using the space... per modification rules. Removing a stock feature does not grant extra replacement point.


Others have pointed out HVAR is only available to SMG and AR's... so MG's don't qualify by strict RAW. (sucks I know.. I'd want belted weapons on things designed to fire at ludicrous speed myself, especially for use in drones/vehicles).


Quite frankly... you're better off taking a SA hunting rifle... modifying it to fire FA, as you can still get a lot of recoil comp on it.

Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 22 2010, 08:13 PM) *
Others have pointed out HVAR is only available to SMG and AR's... so MG's don't qualify by strict RAW. (sucks I know.. I'd want belted weapons on things designed to fire at ludicrous speed myself, especially for use in drones/vehicles).


Not -quite- true. The HVAR sidebar says that "only submachine guns and assault rifles can be constructed as high-velocity weapons." Constructed. Ah-ha.
Whereas the high velocity modification, may be applied to "(Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only)".

Raw, yeah, it works. RAI, heck no.
Yerameyahu
I dunno, you think RAI is that *real* MGs can't be HV? *shrug*
Nemo
That would invalidad the Vindicator Minigun
D2F
QUOTE (Nal0n @ Apr 22 2010, 08:08 PM) *
The KRISS has a totally new developed Operating Action Mechanism that diverts the recoil to another direction then back/up to reduce barrel climb ... and it has it by design, and it's got nothing to do with the barrel/under barrel.

It's the same technology, just a different location. And if you use the modification option, then it is by design as well. Also, the available ascessory slots have no impact on the avilability of modifications, to my knowledge.
Creel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2010, 08:02 PM) *
Does that mean one has to be a modification/stock and the other has to be an accessory, though? Or 1 stock and one mod works too, I guess.


Yeah, they just can't both be accessories, as they're both barrel mounts.
Mx
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 22 2010, 08:25 PM) *
Let's say the target is someone with a chameleon suit(6ballistic), with reaction 4, dodge4(ranged +2), and, say, an orc with a body of 5. He goes on full defense, and gets a single dice to try to dodge(4+4+2-9) - no hits, so he'll be getting 19(6+5+cool.gif dice to soak the damage.

Our shooter, on the other hand, has a fairly high agility due to some Muscle Toner 2 - say agi 7, a smartlink, and longarms 4(shotguns+2), and a Tacnet 1. 16 dice to shoot with the aa-12.

Actually he only gets 17 dice to defend, fletsette round go against impact armor, but chameleon suit is a pretty light armor to have for someone with body 5 when you could easily have 10/10 armor or more if using ware, my Sasha(body 5 dryad) for example has 12/12 armor so she would get 25 dice to soak that damage so she takes on avarage 1 point of stun damage and if the attacker gets one more or she one less hit her plateted factories drops thaat 2 damage to 1 too.

So a narrow burst might be a better idea then wide smile.gif
Triggvi
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 23 2010, 02:04 PM) *
Actually he only gets 17 dice to defend, fletsette round go against impact armor, but chameleon suit is a pretty light armor to have for someone with body 5 when you could easily have 10/10 armor or more if using ware, my Sasha(body 5 dryad) for example has 12/12 armor so she would get 25 dice to soak that damage so she takes on avarage 1 point of stun damage and if the attacker gets one more or she one less hit her plateted factories drops thaat 2 damage to 1 too.

So a narrow burst might be a better idea then wide smile.gif

I think the guy means the AA-16. The AA-12 is a current military autoshotgun
Mx
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 23 2010, 05:17 PM) *
I think the guy means the AA-16. The AA-12 is a current military autoshotgun

How does that have anythink to do with my post or did you quote wronk post?
Dumori
And some how reducing the gauge to 16 from 12 makes it a better gun... The true AA-16 would be hyper-velocity reducing the caliber to increase rate of fire.
Creel
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 23 2010, 01:52 PM) *
And some how reducing the gauge to 16 from 12 makes it a better gun... The true AA-16 would be hyper-velocity reducing the caliber to increase rate of fire.


n/m misread post
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 23 2010, 02:52 PM) *
And some how reducing the gauge to 16 from 12 makes it a better gun... The true AA-16 would be hyper-velocity reducing the caliber to increase rate of fire.


Yeah, I've brought that up a couple times before.

The SR writer that came up with the AA-16 clearly had no idea what the "12" in AA-12 stands for.




-karma
Wuerfelwerfer
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 22 2010, 07:25 PM) *
Let's take an AA-12(which has a gasvent2), put an external smartlink and an auto-adjusting weight modification on it, for 6 total points of RC while in FA mode, and see what a long, wide narrow burst on wide choke does.


Which book is that auto-adjusting weight modification from? I only know the counterweight from Arsenal.
Yerameyahu
Arsenal, p153.

Well, that's why I told you where it was. smile.gif
Nal0n
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 23 2010, 10:31 PM) *
Arsenal, p153.


Yes, but it does not have its own entry it's under the same entry as the underbarrel weight itself ... bit hard to find that way...
Harbin
Someone make an AA-2 mockup so we can all cry. biggrin.gif
Dumori
AA-2? Whats the point?
Yerameyahu
It's a joke, a 2 gauge shotgun would have a 1.325 inch diameter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun
Stahlseele
These sound like a REAL Troll-Sized Shot-Gun.
Kronk2
so what would you rule those grenade rounds as, regular grenade launcher rounds or something with a bit less punch/ dispersion.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Apr 23 2010, 11:42 PM) *
so what would you rule those grenade rounds as, regular grenade launcher rounds or something with a bit less punch/ dispersion.


The AA-12 which is the current Auto shotgun, already has grenade rounds that can be fired from it. Firing a grenades round from a auto shotgun is a reality already.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 23 2010, 02:06 PM) *
Yeah, I've brought that up a couple times before.

The SR writer that came up with the AA-16 clearly had no idea what the "12" in AA-12 stands for.

-karma


Why is it that everyone who reads a Model (like the AA-16) assumes that it is the 'gauge" of the shotgun? That must mean that the Remington 870 us a monster of a gun... come on guys, really? Maybe the developer just liked the sound of the model he gave it... AA-16 sounds imtimidating, at least to him...

Sorry... This just peeves me a bit...

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Harbin @ Apr 23 2010, 03:06 PM) *
Someone make an AA-2 mockup so we can all cry. biggrin.gif


Actually, a 2-Bore already exists, though it is a custom gun, and is not in the realm of cheap... If you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it...

The slug weighs in at 3500 grains, and teh round is just over an inch in Diameter and 4 inches long... it is a hell of a round...
Just as a point of interest, the rifle weighs in at about 26 pounds...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Um… but it's obviously based on the AA-12, which *is* 12-gauge? Seems kind of obvious. No, there's no reason to think the AA-16 is 16-gauge, but that's why it's a little joke.
Dumori
The same splays with the AK numbers the lateist AK is what the ak-108 but SR is stuck on the 97. And thats excluding the million and one AK derivatives.
Kronk2
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 23 2010, 06:50 PM) *
The AA-12 which is the current Auto shotgun, already has grenade rounds that can be fired from it. Firing a grenades round from a auto shotgun is a reality already.

I watched the reference vid, I was asking what the stat line for that in game would be.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 22 2010, 11:51 AM) *
SMG are not very good for opening locked doors. A shotgun is very good at opening locked doors with shock lock rounds. There are advantages to both. Swat teams use both


You haven't actually read the destroying barriers rules, have you? upsidedown.gif
Wuerfelwerfer
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 23 2010, 09:31 PM) *
Arsenal, p153.

Well, that's why I told you where it was. smile.gif


Thanks. I guess I'm going blind in old age.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Apr 24 2010, 05:32 AM) *
I watched the reference vid, I was asking what the stat line for that in game would be.


If you could actually use mini-grenades with it. It would be the most lethal gun in the game bar none. Burst or 3 to 6 grenades going down range. Destroying people in mass.
Triggvi
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Apr 24 2010, 05:32 AM) *
I watched the reference vid, I was asking what the stat line for that in game would be.


If you could actually use mini-grenades with it. It would be the most lethal gun in the game bar none. Burst or 3 to 6 grenades going down range. Destroying people in mass.
Yerameyahu
In my game, we've used 'micro-grenades', because mini-grenades are still too big. I forget the stats off the top of my head.
Dumori
Part of me says frag 12 ammo would be like ex-ex on wide choke
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