Well, it looks like the "Unbreakable Encryption" thread has derailed into a discussion of why the Matrix system as a whole sucks, and what should replace it. I decided not to participate in that derailment, and instead open a thread for people who want to post their own alternate systems here.

I don't mind having an abstract system to handle hacking. In fact, I think one of the problems with the current system is that it's not abstract enough. Even though it's simpler in 4th Edition, it's still in that "Uncanny Valley" where it's abstract, but still detailed enough that it bugs people when it deviates from reality. The main cause of that, in my mind, is the big emphasis put on programs.

In addition to being a fiddly subsystem, programs (including OSs) are being balanced as if they were a piece of physical equipment. Each has a very specific function and a rating. The more programs you have, and the higher their ratings, the better you can be at hacking. The main limiting factor on the number and rating of your programs is money. If you can somehow get your programs for free, there wouldn't be anything stopping you from having all programs at the highest rating you can fit in your commlink. However, it turns out software is indeed different than physical equipment. For one, it's much easier to obtain for free! If Shadowrun bears any resemblance at all to our world, it could even be done legally for most programs that aren't actually restricted by law. Those could be gotten fairly easily by the big bad hackers shadowrunners are supposed to be.

To "counter" this, they introduced program update rules on Unwired, where only legally purchased proprietary software gets regular updates. If you want to keep up with your cracked copies or (gasp!) free software, you have to dedicate every waking moment of your PC's time to patching it. I don't remember the specifics, but I think there was also a strong implication that the character would have to either do all of this on his own, since for some reason there weren't any networks of people dedicated to maintaining free software or cracking proprietary programs, unlike in real life.

My proposed solution would be a system where programs don't matter at all for the rules. Oh, sure, they're still there in the setting, but you don't need to keep track of how much they cost or how up-to-date they are. Why should you? Your character is a big bad shadowrunnin' hacker with loads of points invested in mental attributes and computer skills, let him worry about all of that. Just assume he's either using free software and/or cracked programs he obtained for free, and they're all so good at their functions the only limiting factors are the speed of his hardware and his own personal skill. So that's all you need to track. The only relevant gear-derived numbers are now Response and Signal. Signal is mostly there to determine your radio range.

Hacking is a contest of the hacker's Logic + Skill + Response against the Logic + Skill + Response of the target system's administrator. If the hacker suceeds, he's in, if he fails, he suffers consequences dependent on what sort of security measures are installed in the system. For example, you could apply the net sucesses of the target as successes towards a trace on the hacker, or damage boxes to his persona or to his brain. The target's system security programs probably aren't cracked, but they're assumed to also be as good as the system itself can handle, and are limited by the same factors as the hacker's attack programs. Multiple retries are allowed for the hacker, with the usual penalties. Taking extra time to probe the system beforehand gives the hacker bonus dice in proportion to the time he took. Hot Sim adds its usual bonus. Multiply all hardware costs by a factor that makes you comfortable, to compensate for the fact hackers don't need to pay for software anymore.

Technomancers use Resonance + Skill instead, and can use Threading to get additional bonuses here, in place of the hacker's fixed Response bonus. They always get the Hot Sim bonus.

This would make too much sense as decking and spellcasting have always had similar rules in the past

I think Eclipse Phase's hacking system should just be ported to dice pools. Which would go with your programs don't matter to some extent.

i like the no programs idea, but have an idea for an interesting modification:

all hackers get programs equal to their linked skills for free. now, this excludes a few programs with no linked skill (stealth being the most important), but goes a long way to simplifying the bookkeeping. and if they want an optimized high rating program then its still possible, just harder to get. and this helps open up the options for hackers, to afford more cool stuff (be it way better programs, or just more cyber and guns).

with the gear in unwired, hacking has moved back to being more hardware-focused again. you get upgrades for +initiative, +IP, dedicated systems for running browse, and optimization to get that extra die on your most important program.

What i think we need are kit/shop/facility grades for computers. the commlink is the kit, simple and mobile. The shop is big, expensive, and hard to move, the kind of stuff you could run a shadownet on from a basement or run an A or B corp. the facility size is a corporate AA or AAA mainframe that costs tens of millions existing mainly as a high-end target. If I were to describe the zurich-orbital system as a response 8 system running reality filters to operate at system 9, with rating 18 (optimization 9) black IC, then thats something to bloody well FEAR.

On the one hand, I like the idea of buying programs from shady people in dark back-alleys. On the other hand that's '80s charm, not really plausible anymore.

In Neuromancer, one of the nifty lesser plot items was the chinese military virus. It's an interesting example of how a special program can stand out, while abstraction is applied towards the other programs.

I'm considering making programs an "item", not necessarily always rated, that enables certain Matrix operations. The power of an operation depends mostly on the hacker however; high ratings tend to enable more features.

Programs would have an Availability; but unlike most other gear, if your Logic + Data Search >= Availability, you can download the program for free without any fuss or even dice rolls. Most normal hacking programs would fall in this category.

What about capping a program's dice pool bonus at the user's Logic?

That solves a problem with the Rules As Written, which is that logic isn't involved in the equation. What this thread is scrapping the Rules As Written and starting over.

I actually want to stay away from Gibson here, because he didn't know a computer from his left foot when he wrote Neuromancer . I also really want to stay away from having to keep track of program ratings and such, because that's completely unnecessary once you make programs unessential to the hacking rules. That said, I like the idea that sometimes you need a specific McGuffin (tailor-made icebreaker, cryptographic keys, whatever) to be able to hack a certain system, but I wouldn't want to generalize that into an integral part of the rules, because then we're right back to square 1 as far as I'm concerned.

They have something like that on Unwired. It's called a "Nexus", and it's basically a large server that allows lots of users to log in and work at once. They have several models, and most stay within the 1-6 range on ratings, but there's no reason why you couldn't have higher ratings on really sensitive networks.

Jumping into what could end up being interesting, for any RPG...
...I think several things need to be used for the baseline.

How powerful are computers [Neuromancer has AIs providing firewalls and security, and other AIs providing bypass programs] ??
What's the state of networks, firewalls, encryption, cost/ease of access after 50 years of tech advances, privacy, 2 global network meltdowns, corporate control of the net ??
The level of detail/rules.

My own Decking rules use a 4 point, vague method :-
Find a network/device to access
Bypass security
Manipulate software/hardware
Leave

System access is rolled by system and Decker.
Whoever generates more successes reduces the opponent by the difference, and that reduces their ability for sensing/attacking/manipulation/etc
Separate rolls for each action in the system, modified by the degree of success

I didn't actually change anything about the setting for my proposed system - just trimmed it down to a single opposed roll and eliminated programs from the equation. This was inspired by the rules in GURPS Action, which are what I actually use when playing. I didn't really feel the need to challenge or rewrite the standard setting's premises, just slim down the rules to the point where any perceived "unrealistic" mechanics ceased to matter.

Logic + Computers + System roll vs. appropriate roll depending on the opposition. Then continue on with the real game.

(In other words, we rarely if ever do anything advanced with the Matrix. It's one of our least favorite aspects of the game, so we dismiss it for the most part. And there's just one skill dedicated to it, as mentioned above. If something comes up that requires access to it, that's how we handle it. Otherwise it's just a roleplaying tool for us.)

I like this and would add the option to search for bonus that degrade over time. That way you can give players a super sexy rating 7 stealth program but it quickly degrades to less than what they can find trivially. What this means is that bad-ass runners always have good gear, and still have to make a heavy investment to get high rating equipment.

Simple solution? Have the hacker tell the GM what he wants to do. GM sets difficulty of job as with any complex task. Defending system starts running its own defensive task(s), trowing problems at the hacker as it accomplishes its tasks. Inordinantly good / bad rolls on either side lead to unexpected benefits / problems for that side.

The specifics of the systems you are hacking (and the tools you are using) aren't really that important, when it comes down to it. What maters is, can you get done what you wanted to get done, and how much pain do you run into along the way? If you can determine that fairly simply, why bother with the rest? In such a system, bonuses would likely come more from having good intel and skills, than from spending a lot of cash on hardware.

I've been rolling this over in my head, haven't written anything down so forgive me if this doesn't seem that coherent.

First of all, dice pools would consist of Attribute+Skill+Program Rating. However, a commlink (or device) can only run one program with a rating equal to it's System, two programs with a rating equal to System -2, and so on, with the exception of running as many rating one programs as you want.

For example, a commlink with a System of 6 can run one program at rating 6, two programs at rating 4, three programs at rating 2 and any number of rating one programs.

At this point your thinking: what the hell? And it is probably a crazy idea, but my thoughts on this is that this makes hackers choose what method they are going to use to break into a device. You want to be stealthy, then Stealth is going to be your highest program. If you want to just crush anything you come across, then Attack is going to take the top slot. Defending a device is going to be the same. You want to get in and out as fast as you can, then Exploit.

Okay, now stick with me. Agents are like the Pilot program of your vehicle, they "use" the device in your absence, however, they must take a "slot" in your commlink. For example, a commlink with a rating 5 can have an Agent which is rating 5 or 3 or 1. Just as you and the Pilot program cannot be driving your car at the same time, you and your agent cannot be using the commlink at the same time. Agents add their rating X2 to the dice pool (+ program rating of course).

Now here is where I get really funky. IC is part of the firewall of a device. Its rating is limited by the device's Firewall rating and it may run its own programs using the same formula as above. For example a rating 6 IC can run one program at rating 6, two at rating 4, and so on. IC does not count as a program so do not take any "slots" in the device it is operating. However, it cannot venture out of the node of that device.

So there is the beginning of my (mostly disjointed) thoughts. Is it even worth presenting to my players?

i dreamed up a framework back when SR4 first launched, mostly as a reaction to the complaints about software pricing and such.

basically it went something like this:

you get a point pool of response squared, that you can allocate towards various "programs", with a limitation set by system.

tests are stat+skill, limited in hits by relevant "programs".

Just makes the program limits rule more harsh. And no one would do anything but put stealth in the top spot. Without Stealth of win, you lose.

eg:
System detected your hack (before bypassing firewall). Result: "Door is jammed." (That is, you will not get access)
System detects your hack as you move around in the node. Result: Painful, potentially lethal, cybercombat subgame.
System detects you doing something you shouldn't be. Result: You've been traced.* Now they have a lock on your meat body and Lone Star is on route.

*You didn't bother putting Spoof in your top 2 did you?

Depending on Stealth to get the job done is a little iffy unless you are Probing the Target or you are a Technomancer with Stealth of 10+.

I mean what is a Stealth of 6 if you are Hacking on the Fly? Let's say the device you are hacking into has a Firewall of 4, and you are trying for a security access. The device is rolling 8 dice to find you (since it's probably running an Analyze at 4 as well), and you need 7 successes to get in. The device will find you in two rolls three if you are lucky.

Which means that you need to get 7 successes on the first try at Exploit, if you want to be sure. Which means you need a dice pool of 21! And this is a rather easy device. What if the firewall is 5 and you need an admin account?

Besides, how does the door get jammed even if the system detects an intrusion? Couldn't you continue with your hack and open that door anyways? Once you're in you are a Matrix Perception away from opening that door.

The biggest problem with the Matrix, in general, is the 'separate dungeon' issue. This is all well and good if your players are a team of hackers (actually was incredibly fun in the old SR2 rules), but the biggest issue, and non-congruity, is that only the hacker is in his dungeon... noone else is.

This core failure is the design flaw. The complication, or lack thereof, of the rules is secondary. So, starting from this core premise, instead of treating him as a separate combatant, he needs to become the 'thief' of the group, the specialized guy that you need RIGHT THERE but isn't going to be abusing orcs. Yes, I'm already sorry for the reference to 'the other game', but it's part of the issue.

So, keeping the wireless component of the matrix is useful but you have to wallpaper every room to destroy connections or they open up the front door and travel by mind through the rest.

To this, if I were to rebuild the system, I'd start (sadly) with throwing programs out the window, like mentioned above. You're a professional data thief, you've got whatever software it is you're going to need. Instead, build out a separate set of Matrix Skills completely (Matrix Stealth, Login Exploitation, DataSearch (hey, wait, we've got that one!!), CodeCombat), and some of the software would go directly to hardware to keep the hackers in league with the sammies that they're cash driven (biofeedback filter, armor, etc). Square or Cube the prices to keep it in league with the Sammies. Now attach skills to attribute so they don't 'break' the game with a dump stat that makes no sense.

Now alter the intent and effect of attempting to hack the system. You don't hack the 'nexus', you hack unique locations. IE: Hack the maglock, or use a sequencer. Hack the automated turrets or blow them apart. Log into the computer with the data and find your treasure. Hack into the floor and override the pressure detection system or use ziplines. Assume the primary control point has 6^6 Data Bombs on the ports and Black Ice with Analyze 12(optimization 6) sitting in each system waiting for your happy ass. These are AAA corporations with budgets the size of second world countries. They can program up one of these and distribute a copy to EVERY damned computer on their network if they wanted, treat it rationally. But, it takes up processor space that locks and subsystems don't have and you don't want lagged down by it.

End result: Change the hacker into a team player rather then a tagalong with his own dungeon. It's the only way to bring the Matrix into the game regularly and intelligently.

Side note: I love hackers, and I adore the old SR2 rules which apparently are unloved, and I know why. I enjoy the complexity and the utterly different world it brings. It's also utterly useless in a game of 8 players where a GM has to design two entire adventures at once, continuously. The only way to 'fix' hacking is remove the dungeon that noone else interacts with.

This. Thisthisthisthis.

that can be done today, with spoof, AR and a security node that the hacker is idling in.

doing searches on the node will tell what hardware is hooked to it, that the hacker can disable while the team is passing by.

even if everything is wired, a initial stealth job on a camera or similar to install a splice and a radio is all it takes. Heck, unwired have a microdrone specifically for the task.

This is part of the failure point. Separate dungeon to run through, fight through, and explore separately. It needs to be same time, real time, same space. A complete rewrite of the rules and the methodology.

huh? so he will need to physically sweep the room for traps before hacking them?

if thats the case, just toss the comlink and go with electronics skill...

or maybe you should check out cpv3, where the hacker is the summoner of nanodust monsters...

Nanodust monsters... twitch. Besides, that's the rigger.

Anyway, I wasn't thinking quite *that* extreme to sweep the room, but I guess taken to the logical endpoint it could reach that level without further description. I'm thinking more along the lines of a mage in a room, just an electronic one. IE: The wireless parts (or at least wireless connectivity) would still be useful, you just wouldn't be hacking into the primary tangle of the system, just the independent external nodes. Which, yes, you could do with enough electronics skill, but that would take more time. The asset the hacker/techno/whateverish brings to the team is alternative options, speed, and a lack of evidence of tampering.

For some examples: Re-wiring a turret to shutdown is obvious tampering. Hacking it to add the runners to its don't detect/don't shoot list is much less invasive. Breaking a lock off and swapping wires takes time whereas a hacker hopping in and switching it to open doesn't leave fingerprints.

Our new, improved, team-friendly hacker would be more magish in abilities. "Auto-Turret! Duck! Hey, Hacker?" "One sec, logging in... okay, I've added our comms to its friendly list, we're good to move." Move another room/hallway in... "Camera!" "One sec... login... crap, failed." "Okay, mage, invis us?" "Trying again... okay, I've aimed it at the ceiling and looped an image to the feed for the guards, we're good."

It's kinda the same way that mages will look around and deal with watchers or spirits in the astral, especially inside wards. They're probably not doing it from afar (though they'll probably have ran an astral recon from their ward/lodge) as they're already there providing support. They can detect them for the others, and choose how to deal with them. The key here is that it's not in a different dungeon. If there's a way to do the whole 'central node' breakin and enemies and the like without doing a different dungeon that's unique from everyone else, I'm for it, but I don't see how to get there. It's practically a requirement for that method of play.

I think I'll make a slightly different analogy here.

The mage is closest to the Medic in Team Fortress 2: He buffs, heals, and augments the rest of the party, but could be configured to be a "Battle Medic." *

The hacker is the Spy: He disables turrets and causes confusion in the enemy ranks.** But can only do so at close range.^

*Which are terrible in TF2, because that's not their primary function.
**No, an SR hacker shouldn't be expected to backstab for instakills.
^There's a mod that gives all classes some neat abilities, the one for the spy that's relevant here is the long-range sapper, allowing a spy to disable devices in an area from medium range, for a short period of time. SR hackers are like this.

I like using programs in the same way as an autopicker, except that, in both the case of programs and the autopicker, if you're not using it to substitute for a skill that you don't have, you don't get the full bonus, you just get a teamwork bonus. But, I make matrix biz a logic + skill deal with the programs as a bonus. I also make hacking on the fly much easier.

This is also why "remote hacking" is so ideal in RAW. Hacking on the fly is never* a good option.

*Unless you're hacking a trivial system to begin with.

Or unless you cannot hack remotely...
Sometimes "Hacking on the Fly" is your only option...

Keep the Faith

While (possibly) true, it is by and large such a terrible option that players will do almost anything to avoid it. Normal hacking is roughly 3:2 odds that the hacker succeeds in infiltrating a target that has software equally good as his own. Hacking on the fly against the same target gives you 1:3 odds that this occurs.

I don't know, In 2 years, My hacker has only done the low and slow probes a handful of times... the vast majority of my hacks are on the fly hacks...
anything else our team has done is generally a standard Data/Information gathering roll, and as such, there is no real hacking going on at that point...

This is one of the reasons that I have fairly good combat, stealth, and face skills (I try to get all my skills up to at least 3 before advancing them any further, though I do have 2 skills at 4 and 2 at 5)... we are often required to penetrate facilities that do not have everything on the grid, open and available for all to see... thus the requirement for the On the Fly hacking...

Of course, the karma totals in our group range from 225 to 310, so we are definitely not starting charactres any longer...

Keep the Faith

I don't really see the big issue with RAW.

Yes, the hacker is entering a seperate dungeon, but it is a mini-dungeon with one, two or sometimes three rooms. The most important factor is the master, keep the systems abstract and low in nodes. A "hack" should take at max 15 minutes, including cyber combat. Another point is to stress the risk involved (through example), so that hacking becomes a very valuable skill, but also one that you dont cast around with all the time (wasting everyones time).

turret example, spoof (yea i know, the swiss army knife) a command to alter the targeting data. As for the camera, SR4A at least mentions continuous edit (with a option to use control device in its place if one have direct access to the device).

also, there are some nice drones in unwired that makes life easier. One to make a tap on wired connections (like say next to a camera), one to extend network range, and one thats basically a nexus on wheels.

and i just checked something, even a slaved camera allows for hacking, if its accessed directly. Can someone say signal tap drone? Get the beetle up there, patch intothe cable, and then go about cracking that camera open. As its slaved, it probably relies on the firewall of the master node for security, so even with a +2 getting in should be quick work.

here is a spur of the moment thought. Give the sensors a difficulty rating (thats what their direct firewall will be), then designate what sensors, if not all, are slaved, and then the master node rating. Hack the master node, and one have ultimate control. Hack the individual sensors, with either spoof or drones and edit, and one have more indirect control.

Basically, a hacker in AR mode is pretty much a mage in astral perception mode. Either may come up against foes (IC or spirits) that the rest of the team cant touch. All in all, i dont see the "lone dungeon" issue, unless the player of the hacker insist on going VR at the drop of a credstick. But then thats pretty much the same as the mage going astral projection. If its about the VR sculpting, basically describe the inside of the node as the virtual equivalent of the physcial building, done for ease of use for the wageslaves walking the "halls" (if you know the location of the physical office, you also know the location of the VR office, and so where the data is). Heck, with AR/VR mix, it may make sense, as the physical workers and any telecommuters can interact using AR graphics on one side, and VR on the other. And that also works for the hacker now that i think about it. In much the same way that a astral mage can manifest, a Hacker can have his icon walk side by side with the physical team using AR graphics. This while his physical body is in the van, or the other side of the planet, and the connection is maintained by drones and taps into the buildings network.

From this post and your previous ones, I'm getting the impression that detection = failure in your games, am I correct in assuming this?

Out of curiosity, why?

It's not direct failure, it's that the firewall is now +4 to anything you do, the spyder's alerted, and the IC's pissed. You can't 'hang out' in the node to do cover work, you're now on a timeline. Worst case scenario, if the spyder gets completely smacked up and kicked out, he's going to issue a remote shutdown command.

This as a GM I wouldn't allow because you have to edit its data files, not just send it 'shoot at this guy'. Spoofs, to my understanding, need to be very simplistic and without a requirement of knowing the specifics of that machine.



Agreed, these drones are actually counterproductive to my personal re-imagining of how the matrix would be rebuilt, but would still make sense and I guess a necessary evil. Those beetles though are slow(ish), so I guess there's a tradeoff there. That and running a few miles of cable outside the building might be noticeable. Beware the street sweepers.



With a +2 to all skills, 5 IP passes compared to three, and other benefits, what hacker *doesn't* if the system can actually threaten him? Yeah, if the local grid's a milk and cookie run sure, your 2-3 meat passes will be good enough, but a serious system requires you to completely immerse.



This made more sense in the multi-node scenario of the older system, and was similar to some of our designs (a node for the security per room, the hacker moved along with the team, etc...) While not a bad idea, it seems like it's a workaround to the current system, not actually correcting the core failure.

That and as the game makes you take more tests (cybercombat vs. the IC, control of the network vs. spider) with each action initiating a chain reaction of more tests the odds that you "fail more" go up drastically to the point where you're presented with this scenario:

Option 1) Die/pass out due to dumpshock and the rest of the team dies because security is on high alert and you're not doing anything about it.
Option 2) Log out and the rest of the team dies because security is on high alert and you're not doing anything about it.

the way i read spoof is that its basically the command program, with the ability to switch "license plates". So if the admin can order the device to do something, so can the hacker using spoof. What a command can or can not do, thats open to the GM. But as a turret in SR most likely is a stationary drone (see smart firing platform, SR4 weapon accessories). And i would say that a turret can be ordered to ignore potential targets by the rigger, without the need to edit files or jump in. Its described as a dog brain, so if the trainer says "sit", the drone should do so.



micro-tapper goes 2/10, so it can run about as fast as a human can walk. And if there is anyone in the room, a small, slow moving object may actually draw less attention then something that goes zip (speaking from personal experience trying to keep track of rodents or insects). And it do not need to use cable, it can also do wireless. Heck, the repeater drone can do rating 3 laser (get it up above a door and its unlikely that anything beyond rain should get in the way) or rating 4 directional antenna.


And what threats are the physical side then facing? If the digital side is fort knox, while on the physical side the team can walk in, grab the node and walk out again with little risk, the IT department head really have a case of paranoia...


is there actually a core failure, or just a failure in seeing what actually can be done with the current rules? And why do there need to be a node for each room? its just a sculpt. Heck, there could be a node for each room, but a single login, or even have the room nodes slaved to a central node, so that it acts like one big node. It do not need to be complicated unless one try to make it complicated...

Its still a failure of the rules, ah la Quicksandbox.

if one are general enough, all rpg rules fall within that trope...

heck, there are more then one story about players showing up just to roll dice, hoping the GM provide all the details...

So option 3) The Hacker wins it, and takes control of the node is no longer possible. The poor Combat Hacker is a relic of the past.

If I were to redesign the Matrix rules, one question I'll ask, besides how to integrate the Hacker into the team is: how do you create suspense? Sneaking into a complex, hacking stealthily via probing, this to me (as a GM) is building suspense. It's all fine and dandy if everything works out according to plan, but that can sometimes be like sex without the orgasm. When sneaking finally fails, and your stealth is penetrated, this is the explosion at the end of the buildup.

It doesn't happen every game, but if I can provide my players with that nerdy adrenaline rush of almost pretend dying, I consider myself successful.

I guess, part of that, to me, is knowing how the turret says 'don't shoot this guy', comm id, photorecognition, uniform, etc. you have to know what to feed it which means breaking in and having access to the methods.



I'll try and be as succint as possible, as I'm at work and a wall of text will take too long.

There are three main problems with the core concepts being what they are:
1) The whining player saying 'But you're just being a dick' when I make the game that way when his hacker wants to break into the AAA Corp's private R&D, because the rules and fluff describe doing the equivalent and having a RAW vs. playability fight.
2) The player becomes a data-miner and electronics overwatch with some 'treasure steal' abilities, not an inclusion in the run with the rest of the people. We call the first half of that contacts, usually, and the second half is boring unless you develop a significant secondary dungeon, leading to...
3) To properly challenge a well developed hacker in the existing environment, you have to develop a significant second dungeon as a GM for them, and only them, to interact with on the occassional instance OR you have the 'pizza time!' issue. Redirecting the core purpose and usage of a hacker would lighten this requirement to reasonable levels.

Matrix Perception did away with the dungeon crawl, although I wish that Reality Filter had something to do with it. Once you know where it is, you can just go there. This is why I think they did the whole 20 questions thing for Matrix Perception. If the hacker needs to open the door, edit the camera, and edit his data trail, he'll need to know which nodes do that. If he only rolled two successes for Matrix Perception, and asks for the node for the door and camera, he'll have to spend another Complex Action to try to find the node to edit his data trail.

Option 3 was used up already, that's what got us to the lose-lose scenario.

That is, the situation is thus:

Hacker with 1 Matrix Condition box left facing off versus an IC (or opposing spider) who has more boxes remaining than the hacker can do in a single attack.

You know I have been thinking about this issue for the longest time. Why doesn't attributes factor into hacking? Well I was thinking about this while working with photoshop. It was at that point I realized it. The programs let you do what ever the function is and the skill is you level of being able to manipulate it on the fly. To make minor adjustments and the likes. I logic part only comes with the learning process and the skill is the manipulation. I showed my room mate how to edit out objects from a picture. He barely knows how to use P'shop. But he easily absorbed my lesson (Logic) and now he can do it with most photos (Skill) using P'shop (Program).

The system does illustrate how push button our society is now. And think about it in 2050 and then 2070. Yes, it will make you feel like a script kiddie. That is essentially what hackers in SR have become. It is the skill that really separates them now. On the flip side. I have been trying to think of a way to use Attrib+Skill and use the program as a die adder. Or maybe half the program rating or something.

But the main point is how the system works.
Some people mentioned that it is like running a game withing the game. Well now there is the option to get the hacker to go with the rest of the party. Unwired show all sorts of ways to keep a signal internal and they have good reasons to get the hacker to run with the team. It really is a matter of the role that you hacker is going to play. My players and every single one that I have had since 1st edition knew that if there was a decker involved then there would be some time that needed to be taken to get the hacking stuff out of the way. And the accepted that. They know that a hacker was an important part of the team. As it stands now, Any one can be a hacker just get some programs and some skills.

Well I said my thang...
Peace

Well, this topic has fallen quiet again, shame really..

I've been mulling about writing a new hacking system, but it's pretty hard to make something good. So I wonder, are there a couple of other people who would be interested in cooperating on a new write-up?

I would certainly be interested in helping brainstorm. But I think the biggest issue will be the one of encryption and finding a balance between ease of player character access as well as plausibility of protection for the world at large.

A key issue, even if it's magical fluff. Why are banks un-hackable when AAA corp deep research projects are? Why work for money when you can e-print it.

Exactly.

Quick edit:
http://xkcd.com/538/

The thing about the Matrix is that it effects everyone, but there is typically only one Hacker. The classic question: how do you bring the Hacker into the action with the rest of the team is a hard one.

Lets look at what the Matrix is suppose to be in Shadowrun. As I understand it, it is the medium in which most of the population uses for entertainment and business. Unlike magic and the Astral, which is available to a few, the Matrix is available to everyone. Someone who is Astral Projecting cannot effect the material except in a very limited way, someone in the Matrix can effect the real world in many ways.

If the Matrix is as prolific as television and telephones are today, why is there only one Hacker in the group? Instead of asking how to put the Hacker with the rest of the runners, isn't it more valid to ask, how to put the group with the Hacker.

A group of Shadowrunners can put their resources and talents together to defeat a larger group of corpsec. The corporation likewise should have great resources to protect itself from Matrix attacks, but the Hacker must go it alone.

I propose that the Matrix should be just as important in the rules and in the way Shadowrunners operate as it is within the background of the 6th world. In other words, everyone within the team should have some role to play in the Matrix.

Mechanically you have to make it advantageous for the non-hackers to have meaninful help they can give the hacker specialist without needing to pay karma for skills or a large hunk of cash for programs.

You also have to make it less VR (go unconscious and tool around) so that people can participate in both "realms" at the same time.

I refer you to the first post in the thread .