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Karoline
Just because I didn't want an innocent request for average pay of a runner to turn into yet another 'debate' about how difficult it is to steal a car (which is what it always seems to come down to)

So, I'll start us off:
I do have to agree about the situation modifiers adjusting the amount you can fence something for. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to buy a stolen vehicle from you for less than they would buy a non-stolen vehicle. And it is equally obvious that if prices currently suck because the market is flooded with vehicles, that you aren't going to get 30% of the 'blue book' value since the fencer won't be able to ever move it.

On the other hand, I don't think that 300ish vehicles a year is that hard to pull off (I mean really, stealing a car takes all of like 30 seconds, then getting it to whereever you are going to store it till you can sell it). Similarly I think the argument that a crime syndicate or KE are going to crack down on you is utter bull because you're risking way more than that doing a run. If the runners are too incompetent to steal some vehicles without getting caught, they're too incompetent to pull off a run.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 11:34 AM) *
I do have to agree about the situation modifiers adjusting the amount you can fence something for. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to buy a stolen vehicle from you for less than they would buy a non-stolen vehicle. And it is equally obvious that if prices currently suck because the market is flooded with vehicles, that you aren't going to get 30% of the 'blue book' value since the fencer won't be able to ever move it.


I disagree. The very act of fencing means the product being sold is stolen and would be acknowledged as such. Look up the word, every definition supports that. If street cost modifiers were meant to apply they wouldn't title it as fencing goods but rather selling goods. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the 70% reduction is already embedding the 20% reduction from the good being stolen. Otherwise you're essentially applying the stolen modifier twice.
Kagetenshi
Also, the parts market is probably impossible to flood with stolen goods, putting a generous lower bound on how far the price can drop.

~J
Karoline
So you're saying that it is impossible to sell non-stolen goods then, yes? Because SR doesn't have any rules for 'selling' goods, and you're rather adamant about only doing what is explicitly spelled out in the rules.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 09:34 AM) *
Just because I didn't want an innocent request for average pay of a runner to turn into yet another 'debate' about how difficult it is to steal a car (which is what it always seems to come down to)

So, I'll start us off:
I do have to agree about the situation modifiers adjusting the amount you can fence something for. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to buy a stolen vehicle from you for less than they would buy a non-stolen vehicle. And it is equally obvious that if prices currently suck because the market is flooded with vehicles, that you aren't going to get 30% of the 'blue book' value since the fencer won't be able to ever move it.

On the other hand, I don't think that 300ish vehicles a year is that hard to pull off (I mean really, stealing a car takes all of like 30 seconds, then getting it to whereever you are going to store it till you can sell it). Similarly I think the argument that a crime syndicate or KE are going to crack down on you is utter bull because you're risking way more than that doing a run. If the runners are too incompetent to steal some vehicles without getting caught, they're too incompetent to pull off a run.


There is a vast difference between stealing a "Few" vehicles, once in a while, and stealing 300+ cars a year, year in and year out... Do the latter and people will begin to take notice and they will catch you eventually...

Keep the Faith
Method
It's not just about the dollar values. The entire debate is moot without some discussion about risk/benefit analysis. The simple fact is that a corp facility with even a single armed guard or drone is almost certain to entail more risk than stealing a car (or fleecing commlinks or hacking home nodes to steal drones etc etc). Even if stealing cars pays marginally less than a run the greatly decreased risk might make it more appealing.

And I would point out that noone is arguing that GTSR *should* pay more than running. The while point is you have to pay your runners enough to make it worth their efforts. The fact is that any character with the skills required to be a runner could easily make money doing any number of other activites that entail less risk.
Karoline
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 12 2010, 11:52 AM) *
There is a vast difference between stealing a "Few" vehicles, once in a while, and stealing 300+ cars a year, year in and year out... Do the latter and people will begin to take notice and they will catch you eventually...

Keep the Faith


There is also a vast difference between stealing a car a day and breaking into a high security corporate enclave to steal their multi-billion nuyen.gif project. Do the latter and people will take serious notice instantly and expend huge efforts to catch you immediately. It isn't that carjacking doesn't contain risks, it is that those risks are absolutely laughable compared to running.

It's like comparing the risk of being an office worker and maybe getting a paper cut to being a human target on a rifle range for snipers.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 11:46 AM) *
So you're saying that it is impossible to sell non-stolen goods then, yes? Because SR doesn't have any rules for 'selling' goods, and you're rather adamant about only doing what is explicitly spelled out in the rules.


Negative. The rules for fencing can be used to sell non-stolen goods, but since it's titled fencing and doesn't say to use street market modifiers then the logical assumption is that all goods are treated as stolen and used for the purpose of fencing. The asking price originates from the players, not the GM. This is the reason why street cost modifiers don't apply. The players are and should be free to place whatever asking price they damn well please. In reality the 30% figure about the max price a player could -hope- to get for a sold good considering that the good is likely to be sold in the black market and the black marketeer will want profit from the transaction. The GM is perfectly within his right to refuse the good to be sold if current market trends would dictate that the street cost is below what the players are asking or the person buying would be unable to extract much profit from the transaction.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ May 12 2010, 09:40 AM) *
I disagree. The very act of fencing means the product being sold is stolen and would be acknowledged as such. Look up the word, every definition supports that. If street cost modifiers were meant to apply they wouldn't title it as fencing goods but rather selling goods. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the 70% reduction is already embedding the 20% reduction from the good being stolen. Otherwise you're essentially applying the stolen modifier twice.



I'll Bite...

I have just discovered a vintage "whatever" that my family has had for however many years... unfortunately, it is a restricted/forbidden item now, and I cannot just go out and sell it because I do not have a livense for it, nor can i get a license for it...

I have 2 choices... sit on it and hope that at some point I can offload it for its value... or take it to teh night market in Hong Kong and fence it... in this case, it is not a stolen item, so would not be subject to that "Stolen Item" fee as I can prove that it is an heirloom piece that belongs to my family... so negotiations start, and Since it is

1. Not Stolen
2. Not Counterfeit
3. Not been used in a Crime
4. No Price war exists (it is a rare vintage piece remember)
5. and No Flooded Market (Rare)
I would suffer no penalties for those categories...

However, It is:
1. Used (it is old after all)
2. and the Market is Dry

Which nets no modifiers... Now, all things being equal, my starting negotiation value is 30%... I want 50%, so I will lose dice and tehn negotiate... hopefully I am a skilled negotiator...

That is why I believe that the Modifiers should apply...

A Vehicle Example may follow the same lines... and at at some point you may swing the other way...
You may have a high end Vehicle, where the Market is dry with monopolized channels, and there is a Police Crackdown on this particular vehicle, even though it is stolen, used, and was used in a Crime under investigation... total Net adjustment would be (-50% + 90%), so +40% to the base asking price before negotiations ever even started...

It just makes sense...

Keep the Faith
LurkerOutThere
Two problems with this whole thing:

The fencing rules are overly generous to improve playability the sale price on stolen goods should be a few percentage points of the whole not double digit.

AND:

People always feel the need to low ball your their runners and keep them poor. These are people doing high risk jobs for money, they should be well compensated accordingly.

That's my take on the "great debate" pay your runners more, it's a game played to have fun, no reason to low ball, if they start to get too far ahead start to attrition their gear when they screw up.
Blade
A thing to take into account with the runs is the protection Mr. J offers.

Stealing a billion nuyens prototype will draw heat, but as soon as it's in the hands of Mr. Johnson, it's all over: the victim has no reason to spend money to look for you.
When you steal cars, the cops will still look for you after the cars have been sold.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 12 2010, 08:42 AM) *
Also, the parts market is probably impossible to flood with stolen goods, putting a generous lower bound on how far the price can drop.

~J


Where I live, there is a flood of stolen Catalytic Converters. The local PDs have gotten to the point of warning people when said flood is lowering.

$300(fenced) for 15 minutes of work? Not to shabby
$50 (fenced) for 15 minutes of work? screw that

BlueMax
MJBurrage
Shadowrun—like any game—does not have rules for everything. It has rules focused running more than street crime.

IMHO this means that whenever one looks at aspects of the world outside of Shadowrunning, one has to except that there are gaps in the rules.

If stealing cars, and getting away with it, was as easy as many claim than car theft would be a major part of the game world. Since it's not, and the actual stealing is well covered by the rules, it stands to reason that the getting away with it is one of those things that falls under GM purview.

I.E. if the players are stealing enough to live on, then they are cutting into someones turf. If the players want that to become the focus of the game, than more power to them.

As to the value of a stolen car, the game says you get 30% of the value for fenced goods. Further a used item is only worth 80% of a new one. so just based on that, a stolen car is worth 10–20% of list price depending on how you stack the multipliers.

Furthermore, if my players want to play a game focused on theft over running then I would use my book granted GM fiat to rule that Fencing Gear does stack with the Street Costs since this gives values much more in line with what is know about real world prices for stolen goods.

Since there would already be a gang/syndicate working the player's target goods the market is now flooded on top of the items being stolen and used. So 30% of 50% = 15% of list price. Furthermore, if they keep it up, a price war develops and the net drops to 30% of 40% = 12%.

This drop in return is why the players are now at war with whomever controlled such thefts before the players started.

Again, if the players and GM have fun with this than great.

Otherwise go back to running and realize that car theft (or whatever) only seemed easier (for the same net profit) because the game does not cover the reasonable consequences of most non-running ways of making a living.

In the end saying "why not steal cars" is no different than "why not get a job". Runners are runers, the game does not have—or need—rules for the complications of other professions.
MJBurrage
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 12 2010, 12:10 PM) *
The fencing rules are overly generous to improve playability the sale price on stolen goods should be a few percentage points of the whole not double digit.

Really, this is the core of the issue. Its a game about running so the fencing rules are very simple, and give a good return to improve playability for runners.

If it becomes a game about robbing, then it needs much more detailed tables on the values of stolen goods, and realistically much lower returns as well.
svenftw
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 07:34 AM) *
Similarly I think the argument that a crime syndicate or KE are going to crack down on you is utter bull because you're risking way more than that doing a run.


Sure, but what you're forgetting is that Shadowruns are very rarely the same crime twice. You're looking at different settings, goals, motivations, modus operandi, etc. There's just no way to dragnet that activity without declaring marshal law.

A rash of car thefts, however - especially when perpetrated by the same group over and over - is much easier to crack down on. I'd let my group get to 10 before Knight Errant took notice, and by 20 they would have to defeat some manner of countermeasure on virtually every theft. Eventually they'd have to face off with an undercover officer and either escape or enter into violence and at that point their threat level would elevate dramatically.

There are consequences for running the shadows as well, of course. But it's a poor (and doomed) running team that only does one type of job over and over again. And obviously if your group genuinely wants to play Grand Theft Auto: Emerald City then more power to them, I'm just saying that the answer isn't as easy as "stealing cars = ATM machine."
StealthSigma
QUOTE (BlueMax @ May 12 2010, 12:19 PM) *
Where I live, there is a flood of stolen Catalytic Converters. The local PDs have gotten to the point of warning people when said flood is lowering.

$300(fenced) for 15 minutes of work? Not to shabby
$50 (fenced) for 15 minutes of work? screw that

BlueMax


That's essentially what it comes down to. The only way stealing cars is going to be more profitable is when you're going after luxury/sports cars. Stealing cars may -supplement- income from runs, but it won't be good enough to choose instead of runs unless/until you get to the stage where you're jacking luxury/sports cars at a ludicrous rate. The car's book value probably needs to be over 35,000 nuyen.gif to make stealing the car more profitable than accepting a run and you would need to steal multiple 35,000+ cars in order to accrue more income via stealing than the run.

That is the crux of why I don't feel it's necessary to apply the street price modifiers on top of the 70% reduction for fencing. Economically it's already inferior and if you put too many modifiers on it you're essentially going to hit a situation where if you drop a vehicle in the lap of your runners to sell, it might just be more fun/valuable for them to blow the thing up than to go through the effort of finding someone to sell it to.
Karoline
QUOTE (Blade @ May 12 2010, 11:11 AM) *
Stealing a billion nuyens prototype will draw heat, but as soon as it's in the hands of Mr. Johnson, it's all over: the victim has no reason to spend money to look for you.
When you steal cars, the cops will still look for you after the cars have been sold.


Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.
hermit
QUOTE
People always feel the need to low ball your their runners and keep them poor. These are people doing high risk jobs for money, they should be well compensated accordingly.

That's because apparently pretty much nobody ever read more than the first three chapters of Neuromancer before heading off and deciding to know what a true shadowrunner is like. They take down-and-out junkie and former netrunner Case as the stereotypical runner and assume the ship money he makes and the shit life he leads is true cyberpunk. Had they read on, they'd have notivced that all operations in the Neuromancer trilogy that qualify as a Run are extremly high profile (board a space station, blow up a space station, hack a government AI, extract a star scientist from a high security facility defended with tactical nukes, put fear inducing drugs ito an arcology's water supply and inform the cops you put in psychosis inducing drugs, so they gun down the people fleeing the arcology as a cover up for a datasteal ...). The extraction - pretty much the closest thing to a shadowrun Gibson ever wrote - involves a team of 20 people, including a mobile shadow clinic, a fighter jet, everyone carrying laser rifles and the facility being defended by a Blimp mounting tactical nukes (which are used, too), aside from a small army, several spysats and other fun suff. That is not low budget run at all. The character doing this is paid something in the two digit millions for one run! (Case is paid more abstractly, though he also receives a settled for life payment.) Just to put the whole "but paying more than 5K isn't true Cyberpunk at all" into perspective.

Back to more practical matters.

20K to 40K per job is acceptable for beginner to med-level characters, or 2,5K a day minimum pay for longer engagements. Higher level characters should work for at least 20K for easy jobs, and common payment should be around 65K to 100K.

Of course, that brings a plethora of problems with SR4's ultra-cheap gear. Until War!'s out, one might need to houserule matrix and other equipment up to level 12 (exponentially increasing cost). I'd also recommend SINs of levels up to 12 again, becauser they'd actually be viable that way. And wham, you have plenty of things for your PCs to waste all that money on again.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ May 12 2010, 10:39 AM) *
That's because apparently pretty much nobody ever read more than the first three chapters of Neuromancer before heading off and deciding to know what a true shadowrunner is like. Tehy take down-and-out junkie and former netrunner Chase as the stereotypical runner and assume the ship money he makes and the shit life he leads is true cyberpunk. Had they read on, they'd have notivced that all operations in the Neuromancer trilogy that qualify as a Run are extremly high profile. The extraction - pretty much the closest thing to a shadowrun Gibson ever wrote - involves a team of 20 people, including a mobile shadow clinic, a fighter jet, everyone carrying laser rifles and the facility being defended by a Blimp mounting tactical nukes (which are used, too). That is not low budget run. The character doing this is paid something in the two digit millions for one run! Just to put the whole "but paying more than 5K isn't true Cyberpunk at all" into perspective.

30K to 50K per job is acceptable, or 4K a day monimum pay for longer engagements.

Of course, that brings a plethora of problems with SR4's ultra-cheap gear. Until War!'s out, one might need to houserule matrix and other equipment up to level 12 (exponentially increasing cost). I'd also recommend SINs of levels up to 12 again, becauser they'd actually be viable that way. And wham, you have plenty of things for your PCs to waste all that money on again.


I have more than enough things to waste money on without adding additional inflation to the game.
Thank you but no...
MJBurrage
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 12:34 PM) *
Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.

It is a caveat of the game world that the power players all want deniable assets (i.e. shadowrunners) and so once the job is over they don't hunt you down. In fact—as unrealistic as it is in real life—the former target may be the next Johnson, and the run could be against the first company. Too much back and forth with the same runners may break suspension of disbelief; however the fact that companies do not generally go after runners is just part of the world.

On the other hand, the mob/yaks/etc. coming after anyone cutting in their action is part of the game world. So switching from running to stealing (subtle distinction though it may be) invites war with whichever syndicate.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ May 12 2010, 12:23 PM) *
Runners are runers, the game does not have—or need—rules for the complications of other professions.

Except rockers.

(It also has rules for the complications of journalism, but it doesn't need those.)

~J
hermit
QUOTE
On the other hand, the mob/yaks/etc. coming after anyone cutting in their action is part of the game world. So switching from running to stealing (subtle distinction though it may be) invites war with whichever syndicate.

Because it is totally unfeasible that the mob would let you do your business if you just give them a share. say, 25%, if you can prove you could hurt them badly if they get greedy. Depends on the mobster, naturally, but for the most part, they would IMO not decline a business opportunity.

QUOTE
I have more than enough things to waste money on without adding additional inflation to the game.
Thank you but no...

Like?

Besides, matrix stuff and SINs going up to 12 would both make hackers feasible in competition with mancers again, provide decent security against common code kiddos with a 5K budget link, and make SINs last more than around 4 checks before uncovered according to current rules.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ May 12 2010, 10:49 AM) *
Because it is totally unfeasible that the mob would let you do your business if you just give them a share. say, 25%, if you can prove you could hurt them badly if they get greedy. Depends on the mobster, naturally, but for the most part, they would IMO not decline a business opportunity.


Like?

Besides, matrix stuff and SINs going up to 12 would both make hackers feasible in competition with mancers again, provide decent security against common code kiddos with a 5K budget link, and make SINs last more than around 4 checks before uncovered according to current rules.


Hmmmmm... My Sin's tend to last a lot longer than 4 checks for me at least... your mileage may indeed vary of course...
though I do have a significant investment in SIN's, as I tend to change them once they may have been potentially compromised, whether or not there is proof that they have been...

Hell, a SINGLE drone can cost well over a hundred thousand Nuyen, by itself... JUST ONE...

There are vehicles that cost well over 100,000 Nuyen that I would truly like to have; I have saved up enough for at least one (A Fed-Boeing Commuter), though there are definitely others I would like to acquire....

I sometimes spend multiple tens of thousands of Nuyen working a contact (or multiple contacts), and keeping him/her/them happy (gotta maintain those Contacts you know)...

I would really like to kit myself out in Delta Grade Cyber at somepoint... maybe even recover a little of the Essence Hole eventually... the fact that I have passed through Alpha Grade to Beta Grades was not Cheap in the least...

Replacement of things that get blown up or otherwise rendered unuseable is an ongoing expense that never goes away... and even having top of the line matrix hardware/software does not guarantee success in the matrix...

Not to mention expending money on favors for services/material that are hard to come...

List could probably go on for quite a while, especially if you started to break down some of the expenses into more individualized sub-expenses...

Yes, Matrix hardware/Software is easy to come by, but you can exceed the caps of 6 already, and those things cannot generally be "bought"... Hardware and SOftware above 6 exists in Canon, and is, in my opinion, failry common for some of those things... Banks would have higher than 6 ratings on their hardware, as would most, if not all, military locations of any import... the same goes withSoftware...

Just because something is not commonly available does not mean it does not exist... oftentimes, such things cost more than just money to acquire...

Keep the Faith
Dumori
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 05:34 PM) *
Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.

In fact any group that tracks you down will likey try and hire you. To double cross your original employer or to retire what you took. In Shadowrun runners are deniable assets and a fact of corprate life. Corps aren't likely to spend a packet to kill you when spendtign the same amount to hire your would make them more money. As long as you don;t only take jobs vs on corp or such and are not beony working against those that hired you then you aren't worth killing most of the time. It might hurt your rep a bit to cross a J if you got a better offer but thats the J's fault for not paying you as much. As with any how the game world works statements YMMV and such.
darthmord
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 12 2010, 11:34 AM) *
Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.


Because you are a paid agent (temporary at that) of the organzation that orchestrated the theft. You were the hand that held the sword. You aren't the body.

That said, if the offended corp got you, they may do something bad to you. They may not. It really depends if you delivered the goods. If so, then they have one set of options. If you didn't make the drop, then they have an entirely different set of options.

Hell, make the drop and they may want to you steal it back for them (since you already know 'who' has it).
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (hermit @ May 12 2010, 12:49 PM) *
Because it is totally unfeasible that the mob would let you do your business if you just give them a share. say, 25%, if you can prove you could hurt them badly if they get greedy. Depends on the mobster, naturally, but for the most part, they would IMO not decline a business opportunity.


The local syndicate might co-opt your car theft business, sure. Though if they have enough muscle, their demands as far as their cut might keep getting larger. Besides, what about the guy that was stealing cars for them before? His crew is not going to be happy with this new upstart. He used to be somebody, now he's a nobody until this uppity new car thief is in pieces scattered throughout the sprawl.

Not to mention the local law enforcement corp is going to get an earful if all the nice cars in town are vanishing. Looks terrible for local government officials facing re-election, especially if their corporate doners are getting their luxury Westwinds stolen. Hell, some of the corporate powers may even hire freelancers to get to the source of this car thievery ring themselves, skipping over the law enforcement middleman.

Shadowrunners don't get hunted down as much, typically. A corp will do everything they can to prevent a shadowrun before it is completed, but no one wants to crack down on the shadowrunner community too much because it is a valuable asset to the megacorps. Car thieves, though, don't rank very highly on anyone's list of valuable assets.
hermit
QUOTE
The local syndicate might co-opt your car theft business, sure. Though if they have enough muscle, their demands as far as their cut might keep getting larger. Besides, what about the guy that was stealing cars for them before? His crew is not going to be happy with this new upstart. He used to be somebody, now he's a nobody until this uppity new car thief is in pieces scattered throughout the sprawl.

You might have to kill him, yes. Still, that is one murder, ever, versus one murder or more per run. Still less of a risk.

You could also try and work with him. After all, you have bleeding Edge hardware he, being an NPC, doesn't have (he only has something in the ranges of 3 to 4, presumably). It's not like you wouldn't have anything to offer him. He could move up to fencing the parts of the cars and other stuff you steal, and you steal stuff (no need to limit yourself to cars though; you could just as easily hijack drones, deliveries, or some salaryman's accounts). Maybe the cut would be slightly smaller than with shadowrunning, or at least not significantly larger, but there would be precious little risk compared to running.

QUOTE
Shadowrunners don't get hunted down as much, typically. A corp will do everything they can to prevent a shadowrun before it is completed, but no one wants to crack down on the shadowrunner community too much because it is a valuable asset to the megacorps. Car thieves, though, don't rank very highly on anyone's list of valuable assets.

And every so often they pay in 9 mm caliber. Or not at all. Or set you up to take the fall.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (hermit @ May 12 2010, 01:33 PM) *
And every so often they pay in 9 mm caliber. Or not at all. Or set you up to take the fall.


True, though syndicates and gangs are guilty of that also.

Also, in my games, I've generally used the same guidelines you mentioned above for runner payment:

QUOTE
20K to 40K per job is acceptable for beginner to med-level characters, or 2,5K a day minimum pay for longer engagements. Higher level characters should work for at least 20K for easy jobs, and common payment should be around 65K to 100K.


That's very similar to what I use. If player funds tend to get out of hand, I introduce various money-sinks. People trying to scam or rip off the PCs who appear to have too much wealth (I love when a PC starts a flashy spending spree), family or close contacts in financial trouble, expensive legwork, etc.
Ol' Scratch
There's too many shadowrunners in the world. Seattle alone has hundreds if not thousands of them. There's no way they could all be stealing cars on a daily basis. Your runner just happens to be one of the ones who isn't.
hermit
You needn't limit yourself to cars. You can hack nigh everything without a problem, and can stea basically whatever you like, if you made that one investment in the all-6 uberlink for roughly 10K.

Jewelers? Drones? Homes? Deliveries of expensive goods? Cyberware, bioware, nanoforges, orichalcum, telesma? It's all yours for the taking. Accounts, scam schemes? So many possibilities to rip off people!

Sure, the market in cars is small. The market in theft, on the other hand, is much wider.

QUOTE
Also, in my games, I've generally used the same guidelines you mentioned above for runner payment

It's basically my old SR3 rules. With SR4, though, everything got mucho cheaper, so unless you want your streetsam to bristle with deltaware before long, you need to think of something.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 12 2010, 01:56 PM) *
There's too many shadowrunners in the world. Seattle alone has hundreds if not thousands of them. There's no way they could all be stealing cars on a daily basis. Your runner just happens to be one of the ones who isn't.

I think you went too dry on this one; just to check, you are being sarcastic rather than indicating that the canon Shadowrunner population has vastly increased since Tir Tairngire's p153 estimate by Monitor that Seattle has fewer than a hundred shadowrunners at any given time (admittedly excluding the transient population of short-lived greenhorns), right?

~J
koogco
I think most of the numbers mentioned untill now could probably be halved as soon as the mob finds out.

Stealing cars is attractive, sure. But it has alot of things going against it.
First of all, there is the "you only get 30% by fencing" which is not so bad, considering the relatively high value of cars (or drones, or whatever you break in to steal) its still reasonable.
Now, there will be some law enforcement and/or local gangs that recieve protection money to keep the neighborhood safe. But those have a fairly low presence in the not-so-wealthy areas, so that wont be that much of a problem either.
Then there is the MOB/Yakuza/larger gangs in the area. If you only steel a few cars, they might not care too much (as long as you keep you hands of their cars!) If you steal a good deal of cars, they might want some 20% cut "to keep things safe"
Then you need someone to do the fencing, this could be the teams face (who would have alot of work ahead of him/her) or someone from the outside that you hire to do this.

Its all very reasonable, two months pass by, you are able to steal and fence some 40 cars, with only a few incidents with poliece officers you hadnt seen, and that time you where stealing the car of some gangers. But then things start to get nasty.
The MOB/whatever have noticed that you are stealing and selling ALOT of cars. you get to choose between paying them half of the money you get, or going to war with them.
The poliece and neighborhood gangs have really started noticing now, and they are keeping an increased presence, anything above low lifestyle gives you an increased risk of getting caught, so you have to stick to really cheap cars most of the time. Also, the police is starting to analyse for patterns, which means you need to be carefull to keep your targeted areas truly random.
Every criminal in Seattle who wanted a stolen car for cheap has already got one, and its getting harder to get rid of the cars at a proper price, you can try to smuggle the cars (or whatever you are stealing) out of seattle, but that is time consuming, and gives you less time to actually do the stealing.

In short, within the first year, you are either cutting down the profits by 80% compared to what you started out with. Or, you are at war with the MOB while trying to smuggle vast quantities of cars/goods out of seattle.
So, while stealing cars might be viable to do for a few weeks just to do something else, anymore than 2-3 months will give you serious problems, and easily as high risk as shadowrunning (after all, shadowrunning is just a few times per month, while the stealing and fencing would be going on each night)

I'm not gonna give any specifik numbers for all that, there is really no need to. I know the game rules does not give exact modifiers for much of this (how big a cut DOES the mob want?) But if the books was "perfect" like that, you would barely need GM's (exaggeration! please don't comment on that)
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Because you are a paid agent (temporary at that) of the organzation that orchestrated the theft. You were the hand that held the sword. You aren't the body.


Not all runs are Johnson-initiated; some runners initiate their own runs and then find buyers for whatever/whoever they've taken.

It's also quite possible that a car theft is initiated by an interested party that specifically hires a runner (or a team) - through a street-level "Johnson" - to take certain vehicles.

It's reasonable to combine both of the above, so now why are the authorities going to respond differently between opportunistic thefts and contracted thefts when it's impossible to distinguish the two at a glance?
Dumori
There not at a street level. In a corporate level with Shadowrunners its a different game with the extraterritorial laws and such blowing a corps Shadowruns public will cause them to do the same on you and will enevitably pull the corporate court down on both parties this is how the status quo in running is much different to that of street level crimes.

Street crime are in national law and are protected by corporations payed to keep crime in check. Shadow runs are the open dirty secret of the corporate world they happen every one knows they do but no one owns up to them as a corp. As they are done on extraterritorial grounds unless the corp has a real reason to hunt you down or you make what you did personal. You are unlikely to get that much heat from the run after the fact.
hermit
QUOTE
I think most of the numbers mentioned untill now could probably be halved as soon as the mob finds out.

If you steal more than a car a week, and don't pick only the high-end cars, that's still more than enough to get by very well.
Method
QUOTE (hermit @ May 12 2010, 01:55 PM) *
You needn't limit yourself to cars.
This is key. The GTSR argument is just an example- a framework for the debate. The principle is that skilled characters could engage in any number of other illicit activities to make money without the risk of shadowrunning, so the pay has to reflect the risks. Arguing the actual numbers and whether the syndicates/corps/cops would allow it is all moot.

Also disregarding the argument because its outside of the intended scope of the game is also missing the point. There are rules for fencing stolen goods. There are rules for hacking cars. There are skills for breaking into them. There are rules for interacting with the syndicates. Saying you can't use the existing rules in this way is based on a rather large assumption about what SR is "supposed to be" (and that always ends badly). More to the point, what you should pay a runner is entirely germane to the game world, and the fact that someone posts here every other week asking about it would indicate that a rather crucial piece of information is missing. Trying to understand the implicit economics and risk/benefit analysis (which is central to criminal activity) hardly seems beyond the scope of the game.
Wandering One
There are examples in the fluff pieces for standard pay, one specifically in the story in SR4a. He's getting paid 25k for a 5 man team for a 'milk run', 5k each. They're obviously somewhere between the greenhorns and prime runners. It's the one where he ends up on the wrong end of a dracoform.
DireRadiant
If you choose to give the PCs more rewards for doing something other then Shadowrun in the game of shadowrun, whether or not the rules exist, then that is what you are choosing to do. It's not something about the Shadowrun game that is broken, right or wrong. That's what you are choosing to do.

Grab a deck of cards. Pick a game. Now if someone at the table chooses different cards to play then is accepted by the deck or the rules, is that a choice of the deck of cards, the game everyone picked, or the person who chooses differently? On another level does it make number theory wrong?

The Shadowrun game rules are a toolset, use it how you want. While it can do a lot of things, it is primarily Shadowrun. Just like I can play poker with a bridge deck.
hermit
You could also build a Vampire thief, for instance, using mist form to it's advantage (since AFAIK it mistifies gear worn in close contact too?). Much as I dislike the idea of Infected PC, that is actually one of the more sensible concepts for a Vampire, I think. He could also feed that way and make it look like a burglary gone bad.
DireRadiant
You want to play an Infected Car Thief, go for it, have fun. That doesn't mean I can't play shadowrun and a runner with the exact same rules. It's not mutually exclusive. Or at least I don;t think so.
hermit
QUOTE
You want to play an Infected Car Thief

HELL NO. Infected aren't something I am going to play. But there, the Vampire's powers would be quite advantageous. As ould be a trained mist lynx.

Wards stop a mist form dead. If you clean out middle class homes, though, wards are hardly a problem. Same with cars. Infiltration for burglary generally is far easier than into high security environments.

Besides, a vamp burglar could work by himself, a vamp runner would need to cooperate with a team. This raises various issues discussed at length in another thread.
DireRadiant
I choose not to limit my fun, nor let others destroy my pursuit of happiness.

I don't disagree with your assertions in any way, at least in terms of what's possible.

But I'm not going to do what you want me to do. In fact I find the notion you are trying to do so oppressive and tyrranical.
BlueMax
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 12 2010, 03:27 PM) *
I choose not to limit my fun, nor let others destroy my pursuit of happiness.

I don't disagree with your assertions in any way, at least in terms of what's possible.

But I'm not going to do what you want me to do. In fact I find the notion you are trying to do so oppressive and tyrranical.


You are making sense and exhibiting an open mind.

Have you forgotten that you are on Dumpshock?

BlueMax
Method
QUOTE (BlueMax @ May 12 2010, 04:35 PM) *
You are making sense and exhibiting an open mind.
Even worse! Maybe he's unfit to be a mod!! eek.gif

Out of curiosity DR, are you arguing that its tyrannical to say that runners should be paid more, or to say that noone should be allowed to play a vampire car thief trapped in a myst lynx's body with a pet unicorn and a detachable cyberpenis if thats what they really want to play.

Cuz I think I agree with you... rotfl.gif
hermit
A Vampire thief Adept with an attuned familiar, a Mist Lynx (named Mittens) who burgles homes, makes Mittens swallow the valuables, and mistifies out again, nobody the wiser. Heh. This sounds like a fun NPC concept if you have a Hunter type character and need a nemesis for him, or if you want to present an interesting foe (you could easily make him an assassin and have Mittens have a cyber compartment where he stores his weapon).

Or it's a PC cocnept, if you stay the hell away from my games. The manifold issues this raises, see appropriate thread.
tagz
I'd say the number one reason we don't is because this is a game and if we just did the same thing over and over again to get nuyen.gif it would be a very lousy play experience.

In terms of fluff, there's the various reasons already given. Increased risk over time, diminishing returns, pissing off the big players, etc.

My group stole cars regularly for a while. Fun thing was they never sold them, they used them on runs so they could use a "clean" vehicle for the job, then dump it afterwords. Steal it, use it for criminal purpose in 4 hours or less (usually stolen at night hoping it wouldn't be reported stolen until morning), dump.
hermit
What a waste of money.

Take the car apart and sell the parts (rent a workshop if none of your group has one). Unless the heat is on you (then burn it), this disposes of the evidence that is the car effectively, especially if the parts are being sold on the grey market, and it makes you some money on the side.
Wandering One
QUOTE (hermit @ May 12 2010, 03:55 PM) *
A Vampire thief Adept with an attuned familiar, a Mist Lynx (named Mittens) who burgles homes, makes Mittens swallow the valuables, and mistifies out again, nobody the wiser. Heh. This sounds like a fun NPC concept if you have a Hunter type character and need a nemesis for him, or if you want to present an interesting foe (you could easily make him an assassin and have Mittens have a cyber compartment where he stores his weapon).

Or it's a PC cocnept, if you stay the hell away from my games. The manifold issues this raises, see appropriate thread.


I think you just found a way to let me get Choo-Choo Bear into my games.
kanislatrans
"We do it for the Jazz."- John "Hannibal"Smith, Col. US Army-

Of course, in SR doin' it for the Jazz takes on a whole new meaning. grinbig.gif
hermit
QUOTE (Wandering One @ May 13 2010, 01:11 AM) *
I think you just found a way to let me get Choo-Choo Bear into my games.

Har. You're welcome.

Alo, come to think of it, Detective Mittens is so possible, too. Somewhere in England.
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