What he said.

Nice! I've wanted to do something this for a long time and never gotten around to it. Never thought about the mook package, though. Very good idea.

I knew someone would ask that

I've thought about it, but right now its an MS Access database with no user interface (it has a few forms, most of the data entry is directly into the tables), no documentation, and no support - really, no support. I haven't had much time to update it over the last year.

With that said, if I get some time, I might make some fixes to it and release it as a community project for others to help play with. I just haven't given it much thought at this point.

-M&P

Yeah, that's also the most broken. Calculating backwards into BP's, to then get a basis for mook development is... difficult

What I do like about it is having everything in one place, including the NPC's and able to print out just what I need for a session, like the battle records (a quick list of stats and current condition monitors for everyone involved).

Okay, maybe I will look at messing with it some more.

-M&P

Sorry, double post.

-M&P

I've had some philosophical thoughts about this kinda thing ever since the HeroForge thing came out for D&D.

It could be asserted that pulling statistical and numerical data out of a work, and juggling them around in formulas on a spreadsheet, really isn't something that's actually covered by copyright law.

There's already been legal cases where folks have pulled lists of names, numbers, and other data from books and re-published them after juggling their layout a bit. It was ruled that the data did not constitute "creative work", was not copyrightable, and thus was not afforded protection. The look, layout, and creative design of the books was protected, but the actual data was not.

Also, game mechanics aren't copyrightable. They are patentable, but almost nobody in the RPG industry files patents on their games.

(I'm of two minds about this, personally, as some game mechanics have an elegance that they really SHOULD be considered creative work, but apparently the law feels differently)

THEORETICALLY, all 'character generators' really violate no copyright laws.

Trademark laws are a bit trickier. One might argue that a character generator is a tool that aids the use of the original trademarked product, but that's not really one of the things covered by the Lanham Act as "fair use". Technically most of the various non-licensed generators for RPGs out there might be considered to violate trademarks - even the original HeroForge. The only exceptions I can think of are ones for games released EITHER under Creative Commons or similar "open" licenses, such as Eclipse Phase, OR where the publishers have otherwise specifically allowed fan work. Note that HeroForge is NOT an exception, because while the d20 system does have an open license, that license specifically forbids use in electronic works!

So, in legal terms, what HeroLab likely obtained was a license to use the Shadowrun-related trademarks, and perhaps some of the actually copyrightable creative text and artwork.

(This does possibly mean that you might be able to legally copy another RPG's game mechanics wholesale for your product, assuming it was not patented and you used no trademarks or creative bits from the original work. I can only assume that you don't see this happening in the RPG industry due to most of the publishers not wanting to step on each other's toes.)

Back on the subject, Shadowrun DOES in fact have a fan-work limited license on their trademarks, at least for web pages:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/legal.shtml

It could be argued that a character generator available on a web forum or web site could be part of the web page content, and covered by said license. So you should be safe using the Shadowrun name and logo in a non-commercial work on such a web page. The use of Shadowrun raw game data in the generators should be safe under the idea that such data not actually covered by the copyrights and trademarks.


-karma

Just had a look at the Hero Lab page...am I getting this right that we'd have to pay again for Arsenal, and maybe another time for the extra stuff from the German printing if I want my spider pig drone?

If that country specific gear bait is ever added.

Re: That last question, Lone Wolf has put the announcement on their site. FYI, though, it looks like the same press release that led off this thread.

Jason H.

MS Access is cool...
Let me know... I would be very interested to at least take a look at it...
Databasing character sheets works great, as long as the output works...

Keep the Faith

No, the license is between Lone Wolf and Topps. In the same way that other Battletech and Shadowrun subcontractors used to put WizKids emblems or copyright notices on their sites and not Fanpro/Catalyst notices.

It sounds like Catalyst has played a roll in getting the license to happen, and would obviously need to work with Lone Wolf, but if Catalyst were replaced tomorrow, the Lone Wolf/Topps contract would probably still be in place, assuming there was still a reason for the product.

I'm also going to guess that any contractor would get some say on the sub-licenses. So if a new company took over and already had a similar tool, they could invoke some clause that would end the deal.

Not saying that will happen. I just don't think this announcement has any significant bearing or is an indicator on Catalyst's situation.

I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your post. Or trying to say the press release is the whole truth. But the press release does seem to disagree with your first line. Obviously the next line mentions that Topps approved it. But per what the press release says (accurate or not as it may be), that seems to read as if the license was between CGL and Lone Wolf. How that transfers or works overall? No clue. Just going by that line.

Edit: Also, on a funny note: You mean BT subcontractors like Rick Raisley for Heavy Metal? The site that still has Wizkids and FanPro listed as the relevant parties in the links section.

Since I'm intermittently working on a SR dataset for PCGen, I'd be interested in this as well.

Hello everyone,

I'm Colen McAlister - I work for Lone Wolf as one of the Hero Lab developers. As a Shadowrun GM myself for many years, I can only say - hooray!

To answer a couple of the questions posted here, in no particular order:

* Free Shadowrun character creators can do what they like, as far as we're concerned. For those of you that asked "Why pay money for something as good as what you already have?", we're confident that we can do better than what's already out there.

* The initial release of the Shadowrun data package will just include content from the core rulebook. Additional data packages for other books will be made available shortly thereafter. Pricing for those is not finalized yet, but take a look at our Mutants & Masterminds support as an example of what we've done so far - we have a single $19.99 expansion package available that includes content from 10+ sourcebooks. We also have a Pathfinder Bestiary package (a content heavy 330-page book, including 300+ monsters and stock heroes) for $14.99.

Our pricing for Shadowrun content will probably be different from that, but that's what we've done for other game systems. Not only that, Hero Lab's integrated editor can be used to create new content - new qualities, weapons, vehicles, pretty much anything - in the event that you don't want to pay for Sourcebook X just to use the one quality you want from it.

I'm happy to answer any other questions you guys have. Fire away!

Thanks for the info, Colen, and good to have you here! Totally looking forward to using Hero Lab for Shadowrun!

Jason H.

Awesome Colen, thanks for popping in. I really, really loved Herolab for M&M (and I've used it for the World of Darkness as well), and it really is an awesome Chargen program. There are some nice Freeware ones kicking around, but the difference between Herolab's stuff and the freebies is really night and day.

Bull

Ok, if I have to pay $30 for the core rules and $20 for a pack of expansions, that's much better. Thanks for the clarification.

New question: If additional rules books come out, do you update the supplement package or sell an additional one?

Ditto

Thanks Jason, glad to be here. And it's great that so many people have had positive experiences with Hero Lab!



It depends on a lot of factors. For example, Mutants & Masterminds had a bunch of supplements that were full of background information, but without a significant amount of game rules content; we bundled them up into one "package" because we didn't think there was enough data in them to justify selling them separately. Hence the 10+ books in one package.

On the other hand, the Pathfinder Bestiary was a huge book that was almost 100% game rules, so we added it as its own package, and it will probably remain the only thing in that package. We'll release another package for Pathfinder when the advanced player's guide comes out, since it'll likely be another significant chunk of work to implement.

So basically "it depends".

Greetings Colin!
After checking out your site and the pricing page, I must say I am impressed. (By the way, the PF Bestiary is only $15!)
I am thinking of purchasing the Call of Cthulhu package, especially since I can put the program on two machines and I am the GM, I can use my laptop for running the game and the desktop for planning.

Grexul

I own Hero Lab and use it to run a Mutants of Masterminds game. If the software is up to that standard then I would be happy to pay for it. While the current chargen is nice for chargen it doesnt really do a good job of helping to organize and run the game. Sure all of this can be done with pen and paper, many things can be done with simpler tool. I can code a website in notepad.exe instead of Dreamweaver, but the contextual code formatting and code hints help streamline the process. Hero Lab is the Dreamweaver of running games IMHO.

I think there's a lot of undeserved harshness in this thread. Yes, it would have been much better if Catalyst had managed to finalize this deal much earlier, but Hero Lab is very good software, and Shadowrun character generation can be time-consuming and finicky.

It's not just the character generation, its the overall management of all the characters that interests me.

-M&P

So when will this be available?

What he said

We only just got the license signed, so we still have other projects in the pipeline that need to be finished. Once those are done, we'll get started on Shadowrun. That's still at least a month away, so we don't want to announce any timeframe for release of the data package yet. Sorry!

That's cool. We're familiar with not having timeframes.

Funny..I thought you guys had been working on it for a while...I know there was an announcement WAY back
you were making a chargen for SR4...I would think there would not be that much work..just make sure everything
is up-to-date. It probably should not have been announced at all until it was ready, though, I think.

We've been working on *getting the license* for a long time, and it's been talked about many times on forums (including this one). We couldn't actually start development work until the license was signed and finalized, which it is now.

Where will you announce the availability of the package for purchase? Here, your website, or both?

-M&P

It will definitely be announced on our website, and also on shadowrun4.com. I'll also do my best to announce it here - I might forget, in which case I'm sure someone will poke me about it.

As soon as I have word about the product coming out, you'd better believe I'll be all over the place posting announcements, as is my habit!

Jason H.