Hi,
I'm a first time poster so please be gentle!

I'm trying to wrap my head around cyberlimb attributes and how they interact with the characters standard attributes. The one giving me the most trouble is Bod.
Ok, lets see if I have this right.

If my natural bod is 4 and I have a single cyberlimb with a bod of 6 I use the average, 5, for damage resistance tests.
But if I get a second limb with a bod of 4, effetively replacing same for same, my average is now 14/3 or 4. so putting in a second limb withth e exact same body has a negative effect. Is that right?

What about a troll with a natural body of 8 and an optimised limb with a body of 12. His average is 10. But if he gets a second limb with a bod of 9, higher than that he is replacing, his average actually goes down to 9 (29/3).

Is that how you guys are playing it? or are you using some alternative?

I ask because I'm making a troll samurai and I have always had a fascination for cyberlimbs, but I'm trying to see how it will all work.

thanks.

not exactly... its complicated.

you have 6 limbs (2 arms, 2 legs, head, amd torso). find the value for each, add them up, and divide by 6. this gives you the real 'average', which matters for body to wear armor, soak damage, and the like. with a natural body of 4 and a single cyberlimb with a 6, this becomes (4+4+4+4+4+6)/6= 26/6= 4.33, round down to 4. the 6 only counts as 6 if that specific limb is used (such as with a called shot).

The limbs attributes should only be used when it's the limb in question directly doing or having something done to it. The average rule is only when multiple limbs are in use. Say you grab a post with a non cyber arm and the back of a car with a cyber arm. You use the average STR score. If you stuck your arm in the way of a blade, the GM may allow you to use the body of the cyberlimb for your soak roll instead of your own body. (Never went into cyber much, but this was always my understanding of it)

Edit: By average I mean the average of the 2 limbs used. So say you had 4 str and a 6 str arm. It would be 5. I think you also always round down. So digging in your feet and grabbing a rope with your cyber arm would give you 4+4+6/3=4.666 or 4.

Another example is a swing with your sord and the cyber arm's strength is 6. You'd use the 6 as the sword is primarily being swung with the arm so the arms's attribute is the only one that matters.

This is important for armor as well (IE to cyberarms with a 3 armor would add 1 to your ballistic and impact armor). A called shot to the arm would be a +3.

Also note with limb you get 1 extra damage box too.

Okay, checked in book and see what you mean, it does seem a little poorly covered (this is not from sr4a...I will need to check this tomorrow...)

Critical George has Body 3, Strength 4,
and Agility 2. He has a cybertorso with a Body 6,
Strength 5, and Agility 3, a left cyberarm with Body
3, Strength 7, Agility 3, and a left cyberleg with Body
5, Strength 3, and Agility 3. If he punches someone
in the face with his left arm, he uses Agility 3 on the
attack test and Strength 7 for calculating his damage.
If he wants to run down a hallway—requiring
careful coordination of both legs—he makes his
Running + Strength Test using the lower Strength of
3. If he gets shot, however, he uses the average value of
his Body attributes, rounded down—in this case, 4.

So using Teulisch's calculation, (3+3+3+3) for right arm, each leg and head and (5+6) for leg and body. (3+3+3+3+5+6)/6 = 3.83 or 3. As the example gives it at 4 it suggests (3+5+6)/3 = 4.66.

I
I thought that calculation for the example would be 3 for nat bod
+6 for cyber torso
+3 for cyber arm (just becaue it is the same as the natural bod shouldnt it still be a seperate item for the average?)
+5 for cyber leg
total 17/4 = 4.25

I suppose it makes sense to avreage the stat over all the limbs but it really seems to nerf any extra attrriubte points above your basic. Seems more likely your attribute would go down than up.


I didnt realise you avereage the armor as well. Reading the FAQ it simply states that you add it to your other armor.
I have no problem with the Str attribute for the arm that is hitting etc, it is this averaging that is throwing me.

Oops, yep, I missed the cyber arm. (6+3+5+3)/4 = 4.25...that's correct. So you add base stat and the stat of each limb.

For body for the purposes of soak, it is kind of weak. However, this is only for soak values. I don't recall any rules on the armour and it's in my mind that the armour is only there for the limb and doesn't add to your overall. As it doesn't state it clearly in the same section, I will need to pull out augmentation or sr4a to see if either clarify.

Yup, it's a weird system. The alternative is just as bad, though: armor 50/50? By the rules, you *do* average all 5 'limbs' for attributes, when relevant. For Body (damage resistance), all 5 are relevant; for coordinated things (running), just the involved limbs; for unarmed, possibly just one limb.

Yes, it's pretty hard to make a strong/tough person significantly stronger/tougher.

Right, I should have made that clearer: attributes means the physical B.A.R.S. stats. But I was talking about tests, and there are no armor tests. The idea of 50/50 personal armor remains insane, though. I see no reason not to average it.

Armor is not an attribute, so it shouldn't be averaged.

http://sites.google.com/site/banaticussr4a/ -- all cyberlimbs, but just make each "real limb" be what your real body is and see what the average body is. Download either the Excel version or the Open Office version.

The 50/50 armor is pretty crazy. The imagery Im getting is one bullet splitting into 6 parts and trying to penetrate all armor all over simultaneosuly. Pretty silly.

So the upshot is for a cyberlimb to have any positive effect on a characters bod for soak it needs to be 6 points higher than his base. Any subsequent cyberlimb needs to be at at least this average not to drop it by a point.

Wow, that is pretty harsh.
Considering when you hit someone you arent really just using your arm, but just the arm's STR and AGI is used in game for the attack, it is super harsh.

As per the raw it is a pretty cheap way of increasing your armor. Who would bother with Dermal?

well, cyberlimbs are rather essence-expensive to start with, and a properly customized limb is really expensive in cost. but then a human can get a 9/9/9 limb at availibility 22, which can be nice. get partial limbs and they dont impact your 'average' overall as much, but still give the extra physical box.

the dermal cyber is still a better choice for cost, and cyberlimb armor has other issues in and of itself- capacity. armor is not always your best choice as capacity goes, even if you could get a lot of it. at best, you could get +24/+24 from cyberlimb armor if you have all 6 limbs and an obvious cyberskull. i dont know where you get your 50/50 number from. certainly not something a starting character could have.

Armour rating in SR is just an abstract concept to describe how survivable a character is, and that does not just apply to cyberlimb armour. A ballistic vest adds its full rating despite only covering the torso, so does a helmet which only covers a really small part of the body.


People who want to keep their body more or less intact? Same as with retinal mods, cybereyes are better by the numbers but the idea of having your eyes replaced with steel balls migh not please everybody.

Fair enough call on both points

For the record as of SR4A cyberlimb armor was not meant to be averaged.

Also for the record, armour and extra overflow boxes from cyberhands/feet should be houseruled away, (ab)using that really screws up the balance.

No, it should not. Magic should be house-ruled instead. For each point of Magic attribute above 4, you get -2 dice to social skill rolls. because you're a freak of nature.

Drek---edition creep strikes again!!

isn't it a pity that common sense ain't RAW?

Yes it is.
But making cyber(limbs) worse than it allready is in comparsion to magic does not sit well with me.

Right, we make cyberlimbs better by allowing people to gain the advantages of cyberlimbs without replacing more than their hands...sounds reasonable, just like 8/8 armour for everybody willing to pay 1 Essence and 20,000

Considering that 1 point essence is 1/6th of your total and maximum essence, it's a fair price.
Furthermore in a single hand, you can only get 2? with Bulk-Enhancement i think 4 oits of Armor. If at all.
And if you don't want to do a complete rewrite of the combat and armor system which will lead to everybody shooting for eyes, nose, mouth and ears because there is no armor in these spots, then yes, you basically do parry the bullets with your ferrus manus.
In comparsion, why does magical armor like the adept armor or the armor spell cover the complete body with much less disadvantages?

partial limbs do seem to have a lot of advantages over full limbs. especially when you get into modular lower arms. the lower arm capacity of 10 (or 5), allows for a combination of armor and other mods. 4 armor, a gyromount, and room for something else. dont like what you have installed today? swap it for a different module! synthetic today with a large smugglers compartment, obvious tomorrow full of combat mods. No other cyberware has that kind of flexibility. you can even start adding in a variety of situationaly useful implants this way- even a nanohive.

its worth the essence if you have the money.

Considering the usual cost and other limitations (encumberance, very limited stacking) it is a bargain price for a flat +8 to whatever other armour you have, no strings attached. Not just for mundanes, Adepts also gain far more (four times to be exact) from burning one point of magic than they would get from investing it into Mystical Armour.

In short, once players have figured that one out and the GM allows it, armour ratings start at 8 and condition monitors at 12 + Body/2. Been there, done that, sucks big time.



Why do you need to rewrite the combat system? Simply don't allow armour on hands and feet, strike out the extra boxes on the condition monitor, problem solved. Players can still get tough as SK steel, they just need to leave a bit more of their body at the local chop shop.

thats so cheap only if they're contend at having only agility 3/body 3/strenght 3 arms and foots.

It is alot easier to just say that implanted armor counts as worn armor. That solves the real problem. Other than that, what is wrong with cyber offering benefits that you cannot get from elsewhere without considerable more cost? Should that not be a rare mark of good design?

Hell no, that goes agains the whole point of implanted armor.

Not if you apply it as if it were form fitting body armor.

Ok, you can't go 12/12/12 with 4 armor in a cyberarm -- you'd be way over capacity. You can't even go 9/9/9 with 4 armor.

You could get a cyberarm with a combined body/strength score of 19 (split however you want, either one at a max of 12) with agility 3 and armor 4. This would give you awesome one-handed katana attacks with that arm. Then you could do the same in the other arm but drop strength to 3 and boost body/agility for awesome shooting with that arm. You would have zero capacity left in each arm. Each arm like this costs 25,550 nuyen (or 30,550 nuyen for a synthetic arm) and each one would have an availability of 20R.

Not the whole arm, just hands and feet. The stats for those rarely play a role (BBB example is a strength test when gripping something with you hand - how often do you go finger wrestling with an opponent?), so no need to upgrade the stats.

Disarming is against strength, holding yourself up is against strength too

If you play with cheese, then don't be shocked when your GM grows lactose intolerant. A ruling could easily say that the hand is the weakest link in any task involving the arm, likewise the foot is the weakest link on any task involving the leg.

Like I said, just houserule "no armour on hands and feet", or limit its usefulness to attacks aimed directly at those parts (like the snake socks in Arsenal). Your weakest link approach would also work, however since the capacity is not enough to upgrade the hands even to natural stats, it would basically force people to buy the customized variant.

Capacity of a cyberlimb isn't affected until you get up to natural stats. You can then buy up to the augmented limit by paying extra. Boosting up to natural limits is quite expensive but doesn't take up much room. Boosting past that isn't really that expensive but it takes up quite a bit of room.

A GM could easily rule that you have to avarage the hands atributes with the rest of the arm.
Or that as the hand is used in the action it's stats are used if they're weaker then the rest, this would even be kinda supported by RAW.

And IMO both of those are much better then dissallowing armor on hands and foots.

It's a little funny that although Body and Armor both add to the same Damage Resistance pool, one is abstracted and adds it's whole rating while the other is not.

Cyberlimb attributes are one of the things that really needs a rethink. I think.

The point isn't disallowing armor, it's disallowing the 50/50 situation. Even the +8/8 as described is crazy.

Well, even without his cyberarmor my burned out mage's B/I ratings are 18/12, or 15/9 if he's in a social setting and is wearing his classy threads.

So "crazy" is relative.




-karma

Why are these ammounts of armor crazy?
WHY? Please tell me why they are crazy. .
They may just not fit your preferred style of game, or the way you see the world.
But they fit the rules just fine. Like the offensive mana spells, the ultimate mundane climber, the pornomancer and all those others.
If you don't like it, don't use it. But don't just say they are wrong or crazy.
And nerfing something someone paid much of his starting ressources for probably after the fact does seem pretty wrong and crazy TO ME.
Shadowrun has been Mage/Adept-run before, if this continues, it will be mage&adept-run again sooner rather than later.

Well, what is the great loss in dissallowing armoured hands?
Investing half of the free capacity for a single point of armour is just a bad deal, unless players try to exploit the system and get 8/8 armour without the normal consequences of cyberlimbs (essence loss, social stigma...). So you lose one crappy option and one exploit...sounds like a good deal.

If players want cyberlimb armour, they should have a full or half limb replaced. No pain, no gain.

Um? 50/50 *is crazy*. It is not a question of 'not preferred' or 'not how you see the rules'; it's beyond the pale, just as Pornomancer *is* beyond the pale.
I didn't ever say it was against the rules, and I didn't ever say punish an existing character.

I disagree w/ your averaging a little.

One, as anyone trained in combat will tell you, you don't punch with purely arm strength. You put your body behind it. So I'd average the limb + the torso for the melee damage strength. (also remember cyberlimbs are considered a melee weapon with a base Str/2P, not S like normal unarmed). This extends similarly to melee weapons like a sword.

In the case of the trollbow... again anyone who knows high str bows knows you draw them w/ your back & shoulder muscles not your arm muscles. Again I'd argue to average both arms and the torso.


As far as cyberlimb armor... yeah it's a joke... and leads to the 'robocop' types with more armor than a tank or similarly armored vehicle...

Why not make Cyberlimb armor subject to Armor Encumbrance rules?

Penalties if you have too much of it. Having it in yourself is just a *lot* more convenient than having it in a coat or something.

While the arm-only Strength example is from the book, averaging with the torso sounds like a good house-rule ('*if* it's a problem in your game', I apparently have to now explicitly state).

Except that you can only put a MAximum of 4 Armor in any Limb... which is a far cry from 8 points of armor as you were indicating... So the maximum armor any Full Conversion Body Replacement can have is 22 Points... 4 each for the Arms, Legs and Torso, and 2 for the head...

anyways...

Keep the Faith

Depends on how much you cheat at the math, and with the definition of 'limb'. I assumed he was talking about 2 hands and 2 feet (1 Ess, 20k¥), which each have 4 Cap (2 Armor), which equals 8. So, not a far cry. And you can Bulk them a little, +1 each?

Absolutely not... You have a max of 4 points of armor in a limb (not hand, or partial limb, as they are not LIMBS)... period... I would not allow 4 points in the hand, 4 in the lower arm and 4 in the upper arm... that is the worst kind of rules rape imaginable, and it would never fly at any table I was at... I would also not allow a Hand or lower arm to actually add Damage Boxes, as again, they are not LIMBS... as for what you can enhance on a Hand or Fool or partial limb... according to the rules in SR4A, you may only add to your Attributes, and as everyone is so familiar with, Armor is not an Attribute... so Stats or capacity for "Things" but none for Armor unless it is a full limb... See Quote Below...



Seems pretty clear that Armor cannot be applied to Partial Limbs or Hands/Feet independantly of a Full Arm...

As for the stacking... Sure, it stacks, but the additional Armor, FFBA, and additional pieces all stack for encumberance as well...
and if you can only support 16 points of armor, and yet you have an additional 30, well you are now -7 to both your reaction and your agility... sucks to be the Michellin Man...

Keep the Faith

No, there is no upper arm, I was (stupidly) talking about lower arm. I had a brain fart. Forget it. I edited out the stupidity (well, *mine*, the RAW craziness is still there). I was trying to express that if a hand is a limb, then you could make very silly arguments about hand, lower arm, and full arm, etc.

Nope, Armor's not an attribute. And no, by RAW, it doesn't cause encumbrance, right? (FFBA, PPP, I mean). Maybe each limb is a piece, so maybe there's some encumbrance to be discussed there. It's all very muddy, which is the problem. My whole point is that it's *all* 'rules rape', not that anyone should (or would be allowed to) do any of this.

Nope, there are just Lower Arms, Hand, and Full Arm...which does have an upper portion to it, and is the remaining capacity/Essence difference between the Lower Arm and the Full Arm in terms of its capacity and Essence Cost...

And no, you are right, Cyber Armor does not (add encumberance)... which I never advocated... but the potential additional 30 points does (people keep throwing around that 50/50 number)... the simple fact is that you can have 22 points of armor for a Full Conversion Character, upon which you can stack additional armor... that additional armor will eventually start to impact your Ability to move and act...

I have often found that you really do not need great gobs of Armor to survive in Shadowrun (I tend to follow the "Do not get Hit" Theory of damage resolution)... and generally get along just fine with 8-10 points of Armor or so...

Keep the Faith

Yes, but I'm pointing out that there are several sources of no-encumbrance armor, in addition to the limb armor. 'Eventually' doesn't come soon enough.

The upshot is that the limb rules are wonky, that's all. That's what the thread is about. They should be non-wonky.