Not sure exactly why they are wonky here... Help me out a bit... what is so wonky about them?

Keep the Faith

The whole thread? Averaging attributes. Essence cost. Condition Monitor boxes. Limb definition. Stacking armor. Relevant tests. Etc.

Because the whole point of implanted armour is that something which is (more or less) inseparably linked to the body does not mess with movement, and a cyberlimb essentially carries its own weight. Or from a mechanical POV, cyberlimbs need some advantages


@Tymeaus: I was talking about the abuse potential of not installing cyberlimbs like you'd normally do, but installing four hands/feet with two armour each. Eight points of steel plating for very little investment.

Another way to go is make cyberlimb armor hardened but do not stack with worn armor.

HARDENED Cyber-Armor would be awesome . .
you could finally BE a walking Tank then . .
And if you get your built in, not implanted, armor high enough, you usually won't need any worn armor anymore either.

Then one could actually build a Robocop and *BE* that durable.

yep! exactly!
then you just need to get your armor up to vehicle scale, not above anymore . .

Hmmm.. Just don't see it; I am going to have to disagree that the rules are wonky... they are there for balance...

Keep the Faith

Got you... But I would think that the rules in this case would prevent that, because you cannot armor hands, feet, or partial limbs... See Quote above (Post 47; At least, that is how I have always read it anyways)...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Odd, the Full Conversion Replacement that I built, with just over 100 Karma after play (Alpha Package, with Alpha Equipment in all Capacity Slots), has 19 Boxes of Health, and No Armor in the 'Ware itself, and he IS that Durable (Worn Armor of 12/7)... He may take damage on occassion, but he has never been taken beyond Half of his Physical Damage Boxes...

Keep the Faith

Actually I don't see a problem w/ including cyberlimb armor in the encumbrance. Because the cyberlimb can also easily increase it's body score w/ an enhancement. (IE: +2 points cyberlimb armor offset with a +1 bod cyberlimb enhancement also in capacity... if it's not a custom cyberlimb already w/ higher bod score than the wearer).

Put another way, for every 2 points armor added, if 1 point of bod isn't added... then the armor encumbers.


Don't forget the examples in the book average 5 locations (arms, legs, torso/head treated as one location). So someone w/ rating 3 bod, and 2 custom limbs w/ bod 6... (3+3+3+6+6)/5==4.2 Include +2 bod cyberlimb enhancements in each arm and now it's up to 5bod average.

I'm not saying they're not there for balance. I'm saying they fail at it. That's the whole point.

Given that the current cyberlimb rules (well, at least the customized cyberlimb rules) are generally considered the best iteration of those rules in any SR edition, and considering the inherent mechanic and design limitations of Shadowrun4 (including integral balance issues imposed by the default chargen systems, the cost effectiveness of cyberlimbs over versus other augmentations, and stuff like the secondary benefits/flaws of such cyber) I'd really like to hear why you think these items are issues.

Averaging attributes/Limb definition - It helps to think that since SR4 (like most RPGs) abstracts a character's overall ability in an area as an "Attribute", in that sense this Attribute is in fact already an "average". It is possible in (all editions of) SR for a character to have 1 leg and still have a Strength of 6 (even though he has 1 limb less). That's just the nature of Attributes as a game mechanic, they abstract overall ability rather than edge cases where only a specific part of your body or your ability is called into use. When addressing cyberlimbs the SR4 designers followed through on that, meaning that the cyberlimb enhancement rules were concieved to approach Attributes as something that reflects overall ability and not edge case use (that's what the "Relevant Test" sub-rule is for). Yes, they could have been clearer, heck, I could have been clearer in SR4A in specifying that limb enhancement boosts are averaged over 5 limbs not 6, but my point stands. It's a fine line and a difficult design decision because most other solutions are either too narrow /hard to implement/special case or mean that replacing limbs is mechanically inefficient.

Relevant Tests - This is directly related to the Attribute issue above and is the system's way of allowing for situations where there should be an obvious advantages to having a cyberhand with a Strength of 6 while you're (averaged) Strength Attribute is 3 (ie. such as squeezing someone's hand, punching through a door, or anything else you're gamemaster and group decides is a "relevant" use of those enhanced cyberlimb Attributes. The definition of a "relevant test" is intentionally vague because at my table shooting a revolver or wielding a one-handed sword means I allow the character to use the Agility enhancement in his cyberarm (instead of his averaged total), while at someone else's table the rule might be this requires all your coordination and hence the averaged Attribute.

Essence costs - I'm not sure I even see a potential problem here, particularly given the advantages the current iteration of cyberlimbs and mods they can accomodate (not just the cyberlimb enhancements of customized limbs but also stuff like modular limbs and all the cool accessories that make cyberlimbs worthwhile).

Condition boxes - The one area that could be errataed and corrected relates to partial cyberlimbs like hands and feet. Otherwise, most people seem fine with the extra boost.

Stacking Armor - We could have been clearer but it was assumed by the designers that all types of cyber and bio armor enhancement were understood to stack with worn armor. Not making sure this was clearly conveyed may have been a mistake but the rule itself is not unbalanced given the limitations of Capacity and overall costs of both enhancements and the cyberlimbs themselves (in Essence and nuyen). Yes, you can build a (relatively) bulletproof character, unfortunately there will be little room for any other enhancement in his cyberlimbs and it will show in his Atttributes. As has been stated in this thread, being (relatively) bulletproof isn't the gamebreaker people assume at face value (particularly not compared to some of the feats magicians are capable of and not at the cost it comes at).

Synner, I agree that what we've got is a best-effort. What I meant is that attribute-averaging and relevant-test-tailoring are (perhaps *necessarily*) a speed bump for actual play. They do confuse players. (This is what wonky means; I should have been more clear.)

I also meant that I hear many people say that cyberlimbs are not worth it, while at the same time I hear about abuse. I think you're exactly right to say that the overall problem is clarity in the rules, because much abuse (or underuse?) comes from misinterpretation.

The abuse cries are there because you can seemingly do some silly stuff with limbs that you can't do with anything else.
Aside from magic, of course . .
The worthless comes from the fact that muscle aug and toner are better for getting stronger and faster because they do your whole body and cost less essence and are basically impossible to detect and disable. unlike cyber-limbs. also, for getting more body, there's better ways too with other bio, cyber and gene-ware too. Limbs are basically the phys ads of cyxberware.

That all sounds true to what I've seen, too.

I love cyberlimbs. They look cool, they give you all kinds of cool toys to play with, and they can be quite powerful without being particularly overpowered. Its weird that everyone points to cyberlimb armor and then write off limbs completely. If you really have a problem with that one tiny aspect that no one ever abuses except in arguments like this one, well, theres not much to say there. But its certainly not going to prove to anyone that you're right about how broken cyberlimbs allegedly are!

Armour is not an attribute

He wasn't talking about the averaging (or not averaging).

He was talking about only full limbs being able to to have armor. Which considerably reduces the number of armor-able body locations.



-karma

Attributes are an abstraction, cyberlimbs modifications can be abstracted into each attribute as well.

Why not just have them add to the attributes and have done with it. Having different limbs add or subtract and divide into each action in different ways is a little specific.

If the cost and the capacity of each full cyberlimb attribute bonus was increased, and you can cap each attribute to say two, you can just add that bonus to your attribute like any other modification.

Subject to the max-augmented limits? Hmm.

No, not really. He was talking about the rule that "The attributes of partial limbs [...] only apply for tests directly involving those limbs". Armour is no attribute however, so armour on your cyberhand indeed does count fully towards your armour rating.

that and the fact that yes, your armored codpiece counts towards head hits.
because shadowrun has no hit location system. all armor counts everywhere.
no exceptions.
And yes, Limbs are subject to augmented maximum limits, only on redlining can you go over.

Which is my point... The Only allowable Enhancements for Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet is Attributes (Armor is an Enhancement, so no armor)... that is all, the rest is non-enhancement capacity... Says so right in the Quote I provided earlier... at least, that is how I interpret it, and with that interpretation it stops (Cold) any abuse with putting Armor in hands/feet and receiving 8 points of stackable armor...

Kinda interesting the way it does that actually...

Keep the Faith

Where does it say that? The text you quoted only affirms that partial limb attributes can be improved, nowhere does it say "the only thing you can do with the capacity of partial limbs is improve their attributes" - which would be massive BS, as it would not just ban armour but also everything else you might want to put into partial limbs (weapons, snake fingers, sensors, datajacks...)

From original Quote... And notice I said that you could add any other Options to the hand/foot except Armor, as Armor is an Enhancement, which I would disallow because of the quote below)



Why point that out specifically if they are treated the same as a full cyberlimb? Because it is specifically pointed out, I use my interpretation... and you have to admit, it stops foolishness like armoring hands and feet and receiving a +8 to your armor which is totally stackable...

Of course you could armor them if you liked (using standard Cyberlimb ruules) but per the statement above you would ONLY be able to use that armor if the hand /foot was directly targeted... which could also work, as it would remove the stackability of that armor and throw it out the window... But I prefer the first option personally

Keep the Faith

It's deja vu all over again.



Edit: I now think I understand Tymeaus Jalynsfein's full argument above in a different light. The bolding in his second quote confused me since that seemed to indicate he was talking about cyberlimb attributes specifically since he drew so much attention to that aspect. But instead he was talking about how his reading of the quote indicates that the only types of enhancements a partial cyberlimb can receive are Attribute Enhancements altlhough they can "have other useful features. They also grant the user 1 extra damage box to her Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb she possesses. They have Capacity, allowing the integration of cyberweapons and other cyber accessories. They can perform at super-human levels with the right enhancements. Finally, cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t possess cyberweapons. Their Unarmed Damage Value is (STR ÷ 2)P." And that nowhere in that list is the distinct Armor Enhancement listed.

I have to go, but that's an interesting reading I hadn't thought of.

That's right, no armor for your entire body for an armored cyberhand and also, you need an entire cyberlimb to get an extra damage box to your physical condition monitor. "Ok, so I get +1 physical damage box for a cyberhand? Great, then I get a full cyberarm for another +1." No, it's just +1 physical damage box for the full cyberlimb, including your hand.

An obvious cyberhand is 5k nuyen, with 4 capacity.
Each point of strength over 3 is +1.5k nuyen, although no capacity is used, up to the natural maximum.
Each point of strength over the natural maximum is rating (1-7) * 250 nuyen and takes up rating capacity. A cyberhand has capacity 4, so the max rating over the natural augmented is 4.
The tables may be unclear, but the paragraphs spell out exactly how it all works. So, for a normal human... the maximum Strength that a cyberhand can have is 10. It will cost:
5k+(3*1.5k)+(4*250)= 10,500 nuyen with no capacity left over. It has a rating of 12R and at base grade will take up 1/4 of a point of essence (lowering magic values by a full point).
In a melee attack made with a normal arm and a cyberhand, you take the average value of all "limbs" involved in the task. If your arm is Strength 4 normally, then with that Strength 10 hand you attack with a Strength of 7. If your normal Strength is 1, then with that augmented hand you attack with a Strength of 5.

No, that's silly. That section is obviously making the point that partial limbs are for relevant tests only (instead of being averaged in); it's certainly not laying down a rule that partial limbs aren't subject to the same mods as full limbs (e.g., armor).

Incidentally, I'd rule that hand strength wasn't relevant to a melee attack unless it specifically used gripping or something; not a punch. I think this is specifically what the above-mentioned section is referring to.

But what if your kung-fu is eagle claw?

Forget Eagly-Claw:
http://www.rnrh.net/images/blog/monkey_steals_the_peach.png

If you say that the sentence you quoted should not be treated as an affirmation, but as an exclusive list of possible upgrades, every option not listed there is flat out.
Enhancement of attributes is listed and would thus be allowed, everything else you can do with a limb is not listed and would be not allowed following your argumentation.


...which would be great, unfortunately it also stops armour on lower arms/legs (shot wounds on legs are surprisingly common) and everything else you could put into a partial cyberlimb


PS: If you want to check statistics on leg shots, be sure to check which definition of "leg" they use. In medical terms a leg only encompasses the area between knee and foot

Those crazy medical people and their definitions.

You are not making any sence. The text you quoted is specifically about cyberlimb attributes. Like you said, armor isn't an attribute. That doesn't mean partial limbs don't have other stats, it just means that those particular rules only apply to the use of attributes with partial limbs. They can still have armor. Your quotes don't even address that, so I dont understand how you can say it proves that they can't have armor. Thats pure nonsence!

My point is that the quote addresses what Enhancements are appropriate to a Partial Limb or Hand/Foot... since Armor is an Enhancement, and the quote specifies that Attrribute are teh only ENHANCEMENT allowed for partial limbs and hand/feet, that you cannot add armor to them, though you could add any other thing that takes up capacity, except Armor...

I thought that it was pretty evident from my previous posts that it was an interpretation that would limit craziness like adding armor to hands/feet and then claiming that you had +8 Armor that stacked with anything else...

As I also indicated... Your mileage may vary...

Keep the Faith

Holy crap, it can stop the heart!

Getting your nuts ripped off can do that. I totally believe it. Can't stop laughing.

All I see in the books is that there are Physical Attribute Enhancements and Armor enhancements, and that cyberlimb Armor enhancements are cumulative with all forms of worn armor. While I suppose the rules COULD be interpreted to apply the "Only when the limb is directly involved in a test," interpretation to damage resistance rolles, I think it's a bit of a sketchy leap to be taking and certainly it's not the only plausible interpretation. For one thing, I'd point out that quite frankly, SR4 as a ruleset has at best minimal support for targeting specific areas (and that's being pretty generous). It features the kind of abstraction where having metal in your bones can keep you from bleeding out when you get knifed and groin protectors help if someone unloads some buckshot at you. Silly or not, having armored hands is well in line with other fun stuff like spraying carbon nanotubes on yourself and reaping an armor bonus. The RAW is what it is, and in the case of damage resistance, it is very abstract. Taking less damage because part of you isn't even real flesh is hardly the silliest thing going in the rules.

Yes really. He was referring to the idea suggesting a character can get four cyberhands with two armor each.

He specifically states "you cannot armor hands, feet, or partial limbs" in the very passage you quoted.

Nothing at all about averaging.

He's referring to the text that indicates you can enhance attributes on partial limbs, but the same text make no mention about armor.

One might argue that the INTENT of the passage wasn't to prevent armor, but that's how it's written.


-karma

Once again, I have no issues with the rules when it comes to Full Limbs... None at all... where the problems start to arise is in the Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet... The quote below shows you where I am getting my Information from, and is in the SR4A book...



Now, using that as a base, Attributes and Armor are Enhancements... My interpretation goes soemthing like this... You may add Attributes to both Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet, but not armor... Only Attributes are discussed as part of enhancing these systems (I know, absense does not mean you cannot use it, but let me continue)... As such your attributes are used only when using that partial limb or hand/foot... The biggest Rules Rape with this is Armoring the Hands/Feet with 2 points of Armor each and then having +8 Armor that stacks with whatever is worn. Now, if you do not allow armor to apply to Hands/Feet and Partial Limbs, you can defeat that particular problem all together...

But, you will probably say, the rules would allow it... Sure, if you allow it, the second part of that quote comes into play, at least for me. The Attributes are used only for that limb. Many people hold the position that armoring Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet add to the armor total. I have to disagree in the case of Partials, and Hands/Feet. The quote implies (for Partials, and Hands/Feet) that it would only protect that specific area IF it comes into play... For me that means that the armor would protect that location if they are specifically targeted... otherwise, the armor on such systems is so insignificant that they provide no real preotection to the greater body as a whole. I also would not allow an extra Physical Damage box for partial limbs, or hands/feet like you would get if you had Full Cyberlimbs. If that was the intent, you would receive 3 Boxes ectra for each actual Limb (Hand, Lower (Partial) and Upper Limb) which is obviously not the case... You would need a FULL Limb to receive such consideration, at least in games that I would run.

I know that many people are gong to say... "But that is how the rules are written." and I would disagree with that. It is pretty obvious, to me at least, that the partial limbs, Hands and Feet are for very specific purposes, otherwise they would not have been singled out specifically in the text... you would just leave out that entire paragraph and move along... You want to armor up with Cyber Armor and have Extra Health Boxes for Physical, get Full Limb Replacements...

I rambled I know, but there you go...

Keep the Faith

Actually no... It is specifically talkking about Enhancements only... not extra capacity that you would be able to fiull... that is a completely different paragraph that I saw as not germane to teh conversation... we are talking about enhancements, not capacity.



Again, not really... Capacity is not the Issue here, Enhancements are...



There are less gunshots to the Lower Leg and Feet than to anywhere else in the body... Is it statistically relevant? Sure, Maybe, as people DO get shot in the lower leg... but MORE people are shot in the Torso, Upper Leg, Upper Arm regions than any other... and these are covered by, FULL LIMB Replacements, not Partial Limb replacements.

I did allow that you COULD put Armor in Partial Limbs or Hands and Feet (For those who are Rules Purists or did not like my interpretation of the rules for not allowing them at all), but that it WOULD NOT apply to any other locations (in effect, you would have to actually target Partial Limbs and/or Hands/Feet), and you would not get the benefit of that armor for the rest of your damage resistance tests.

I do not think that it was the intent to have Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet that had armor to apply to the rest of the body. Especially in the abstract method that is employed for such figures. Heck, Partial Limbs do not even average into the Mix for whole body movement. You only get to apply it to very specific tests (It MUST be a Direct Involvement of that partial Limb... The example is gripping something with your Hand that has Improved Strength). Even Shooting soemthing would average between your Lower Arm and your Upper Arm for the relevant Attribute that is used.

Keep the Faith

I don't think there's any difference between partial and full limbs for armor, and there doesn't really need to be. They have less space, so they have less armor. The really 'problem' is that armoring a limb is a flat armor bonus everywhere, but that's the system of Shadowrun.

Your are still not making any sence.

Yes you can interpret anything however you want but that doesnt make it correct or even sensible. The rules you keep quoting is specifically talking about attributes on partial limbs. Just because attribute boosts are enhancements doesnt mean theyre limited only to attribute enhancements. Thats crazy person talk. You may as well say that you cant shoot a gun if you just have a cyberhand because the rules for partial limbs never say you can. It amounts to the same thing as what you are trying to say here. Exclusion is not the same as negation.

Nope, sorry. That particular stumbling block is still a deal breaker for me. If they intended things to be interpreted the way you say it should be, than the rules should come out and say so. Right now, I don't think it does. Now, RAW and intent are two separate things, so I could see the devs adding something to the FAQ or adding errata to exclude partial limb armor. Things change, after all. But with that said, the system is abstract enough that you can't even say that partial limb armor is actually inconsistent with previous armor rules, so I would have to say that it's a bit of an uphill battle to even try to prove that they intended things to ever be different. It's not an insignificant factor that this whole conversation happens in the context of a system that allows an athletic cup to add a flat cumulative armor bonus vs. any attack that isn't specifically targeted to bypass all worn armor.

See, I think that I am making perfect sense, you just do not agree with me, and that is okay...

But, here is the thing...

A Hand can have 2 points of Armor and a Partial Limb can have 4 Armor... yet a Full Limb still only can have 4 Armor... for me, that creates a very large Disconnect... It is my stance that the rules for Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet address that disconnect by not allowing Armor (Though it is at best implied... it never actually says that) for those specific limb modifications...

AS I have said continuously, it is definitely an interpretation, but one that I believe fixes the issues relating to that particular problem... Also as I have sdaid, You may not agree with that, and that your Mileage may vary, depending upon whether YOU have an issue with that...Not every one does...

@ Whipstitch... No worries, I understand your point of view as well... One of my biggest Pet Peeves is the handling of Armor and Weapons... but it is okay... sometimes I just get on a tangent and say things that I probably shouldn't have, because of the issues these topics generate... the Armor one is especially annoying when it comes to Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet, and their interaction with other Armor... Sorry...

In the end I managed to get the rant out of my system, so everything is all good...

Keep the Faith

Alright.. so I am sitting here trying to configure Cyberlimbs and attributes. This is a bit wordy, so forgive me. I tried to make this as neat as possible. I have already read all the other cyberlimb threads here, but there is some missing key info.


1st Question: How do you find the average of your limbs for body tests, strength tests etc involving the whole body? I read somewhere on another cyberlimb forum you take the total, and divide by 6 or by 5?
- Sub Question: When doing full body tests, do you average just the limbs (4)? or do you count the body(torso) as well?
- Sub Question: Is this 5 or 6 you divide by? If it is 6, where does this come from?
- Sub Question: Do the head and torso do not count, if so I don't know where the other above 2 are coming from. Per the book: "Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in this category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements." -- I find it hard to believe you can have a strength rating for something that is a shell. Body I understand, but not strength or agility.


2nd Question: Why is is so much more expensive and higher availability to raise regular stats for a Cyberlimb than its Enhanced stat?
- I.E. An ork with 8 strength, 6 body, 5 agility wants to match his cyberlimb. So it would cost 5+3+2 for him to match it. Effectively making this an Availability 14 cyberarm. Well out of his reach as a starting character playing by strict rules. Meanwhile, a human can have a 6/6/6 Strength/Body/Agility arm with +3 enhancements, for only 12 availability, significantly increasing his stats, whereas the ork is just matching his current bodily stats and not getting anything from them.
- Sub Question: Does this seem weird to you at all? Shouldn't the regular up to your normal strength be just money cost, and anything ENHANCED add significantly to the availability? Would it be wrong to house rule this?


3rd Question: The SR4A book states: "On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3." but in the Customized Cyber Limbs it only states: "Increases above the natural attribute maximum and up to the augmented maximum must be handled as cyberlimb enhancements, with the standard Capacity and nuyen costs."
- There is no mention of needing a Cyber Torso with *customized* limbs. Only with Standard. Is this just an oversight? Or on purpose, meaning if you get custom build limbs, that you don't need to receive a cyber torso for going above and beyond what they are supposed to do?

* Now I do understand, that yes, matching metahuman limbs with cyber counterparts might be a bit more expensive, but the availability of them being very hard to find seems kind of odd. Would you overlook this is you where a GM and a player wanted to get a limb replacement for the same stats as his old one? Or would you not allow him to get one?

Am i just confused? or am I missing something? I already read the other Cyberlimb thread and they seemed to skim over this, but never pin down an actual response.

The 6 comes from all limbs including the head.
Two legs, Two arms, one Torso, one Head.
5 is more or less a house-rule, as technically you have to figure in the head attributes . .
But seeing how agility or strength in the head are probably not doing much if anything, 5 sounds reasonable enough.

House-Rules are reasonable, if your group agrees on them.

And as a GM, i would let people get cyberlimbs with attributes up to natural maximum just for money and more availability for anything above.

Where is the 6 rule into place? Even in the book for Body it only shows them counting the 4 limbs and the torso.

Critical George has Body 3, Strength 4, and Agility 2. He has a cybertorso with a Body
6, Strength 5, and Agility 3, a left cyberarm with Body 3, Strength 7, Agility 3, and a
left cyberleg with Body 5, Strength 3, and Agility 3. If he punches someone in the face
with his left arm, he uses Agility 3 on the attack test and Strength 7 for calculating
his damage. If he wants to run down a hallway—requiring careful coordination of
both legs—he makes his Running + Strength Test using the lower Strength of 3. If
he gets shot, however, he uses the average value of his Body attributes, rounded
down—in this case, 4.

If you use:

Head (3)
Torso (6)
Right arm (3)
Left arm (3)
left leg (5)
right leg (3)

Then you get: 3+6+3+3+5+6/6 = 3.83. That rounded down is 3.

Meaning their math is wrong, or you don't count the head.


So my question is. Since the Torso and the Skull are both linked to the same line of: "Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in this category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements."

This almost makes me believe that stupid torsos aren't meant to do this either, cept.. they have stats for them, which is confusing.

Sigh.. stupid Shadowrun.

You could just get that ork the same 6/6/6 limb. You don't have to use the (painful) customize rules for his 6 and 5 stats, after all.