On the subject of LMGs and ARs, why can only SMGs and ARs accept the High Velocity mod now? In SR2 (and probably 3 as well) there was an HVLMG. What gives?

Miniguns use slightly different rules. The high-velocity mod is specifically for smaller weapons.

And sadly, they are incompatible with each other and other weapons . . just think of the silliness one could do with them . .

You're also technically better off modding a gun "manually" for high velocity because otherwise you magically lose an under-barrel slot. Silly really.

There's a difference in: Concealability. Cost. Cost of modding (especially mods that reference Weaponcost, such as smartlinking. Some other internal mods require smartlink mods, such as the improved rangefinder). Availability - machineguns tend to be Forbidden, though there are a few F assault rifles(like the alpha). machineguns have longer range. Medium machineguns with a long barrel have comparable range to sniper rifles. There's a difference in ammo too - machine guns tend to be belt fed, which makes them a superior choice for arming vehicles with(because they get the ammo reserve). They also use different skills. Size also matters - if you're putting an underbarrel weapon on it, or its going into a weapon mount(mmg's are good, but take reinforced mounts). Arsenal also has the 'carrying heavy weapons' rule which deals soakable stun and knockdown to any non-troll or anyone with body 8 or less who fires a heavy weapon. Most machineguns also don't usually come with smartlinks. Not a huge deal, because external ones are cheap.

Automatics nets you some other good things. Machine pistols, submachine guns, assault rifles.
But heavy weapons includes rockets, missiles, grenades, machineguns, and the gauss rifle. So there's that, too.

Looking at the straight statline, its pretty easy to go 'uh. What's the difference'. The minor details come up when you look at the other rules associated with weapons.

Thats all i can think of off the top of my head.

I have long thought that Automatics is the most versatile and practical weapon group in the game.

Heavy weapons definitely beats it out on versatility, but loses big time with practicality.

Machine Pistols can be reasonably concealed, sub machine guns are what I consider "standard data" for a run where you focus on infiltration, and Assault Rifles are an amazing go-to weapon when force is the chosen method of success (not to mention a wide variety of underbarrel mounted additions that wont make your GM tilt his head and say "really?" in that tone of voice you hate). If you're going to focus on one aspect of the Firearms group, Automatics seems like the way to go.

I tend to consider Heavy Weapons as the domain of Riggers, high-end Street Sam when discretion isn't a factor, and pink-mohawks.

Heavy weapons is also a decent supplement to assault rifles - you still need a level of Heavy Weapons if you want to use underbarrel grenade launchers.

I Like the LMG with underbarrel grenade launcher No additional skill needed. Problem is concealability though. After-market underbarrel weapons seem to be a lot more bulky than stock ones

Because an LMG without grenade launcher is concealable?

Wha I meant was that by RAW an an Ares Alpha/AK-98/M22A3 is concealed at +6, whereas a FN HAR with added grenade launcher is at +10. A sword gun is concealed at +8, by the looks of it, such weapons shouldn't be much harder to conceal than normal swords.

That rule is right up there with the anniversary books rule addition to snipers rifles in the amount of stupidity.
Considering heavy weapons includes thinks like a grenade launcher pistols, that rule doesn't make any fragging sense.
And the rules isn't damage to all firing heavy weapons without body 8, its that character that doesn't have strenght and body of 8 cant use heavy weapons at all without a stabilizer and you also have to resist half of weapons base damage as stun damage every time you fire it.

Just remove genade launchers and RPGs from it. This rule is a copy-paste form SR3, and they did not notice that Heavy weapons and Launch weapons used to be 2 different categories.

Doesn't really make the rule make anymore fragging sense, i'm pretty damm sure i can use an LMG and last time i checked i'm not stronger then humanly possible.

Yup, don't try to make sense of it. LMGs are just ARs configured for sustained fire, after all. Just common sense everything.

With heavier and sometimes longer barrels, and a belt-feed rather than a magazine feed (Or a magazine feed as well as. Or a magazine feed that can accept a drum.), and...

so what? Those accessories don't make them too heavy to carry by an unaugmented human.

Indeed. Look at reality: you get guys carrying M249s, for example. The point is that they're not carrying M2s, which are a wholly different thing. For that, I can see 8 Str/8 Bod (or Stun) making sense.

I think the intention was to note that humans don't carry around and hipfire .50 cal machine guns, or miniguns, without significant aid. Modern Warfare games or Bad Company games aside.


Honestly tho, I'm not sure what a good comparison to an assault cannon would be, some sorta anti-tank rifle?

One of the 20mm Models maybe.

And even the ones that were just jumped-up models of the standard infantry rifle had a tendency to break collarbones.

Ammo capacity and the ability to accept belt-fed ammo should not be taken lightly. You can use suppressing fire with an assault rifle for only 4 rounds (full auto = 10 rounds, 42/10=4.2) which is less than 30 seconds (and in real life, it's more like 5 seconds). Assault rifles are pretty much meant solely for burst fire, even on full auto they're typically still used for shorter bursts than an LMG. A belt-fed LMG, on the other hand, would be able to sustain suppressing fire for anywhere from 10 to 100 rounds (between 1 and 10 minutes) depending on the size of the belt. That can make a massive difference in a firefight.

Except you can mod an assault rifle to 100 or even 200 rounds depending on how you interpret the rules on double clips.

Oh, and I found this when googling "drum magazines":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHTXNDEIeIg

I also don't know why you'd need to actually mod an assault rifle to accept drum mags. They've had Beta-C drum mags that fit standard assault rifles for quite a while now;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Hqij9HaZs



-karma

Yes and the machinegun can have 250 round capability without any modding, douple that using additional clip mod.

The point is, ARs can do the extended suppressive fire tango pretty damn damn well too.

MGs can have theoretically infinite ammo, as you can keep linking belts, but how often will that come up in even a military themed SR game?



-karma

If the runners ar paying for their ammunition? Never.

Right. So if ANY weapon can get up to the 200+ ammo capacity range, in most cases any additional capacity beyond that isn't really a factor that needs to be considered.

Which brings things back to the original point. Why use an MG when an AR will do?



-karma

And the answer is "no reason what so ever to do so", but that question can just as well be asked the other way around "why use AR when a MG is atleast just as good".
But i do have to admit there's not many reasons to use LMG over MMG.

The answer is: don't use an LMG *when* an AR will do. Use one when an AR *won't* do.

Some of it is the esoterics that SR never gets into. LMG is likely made with quick-change barrels and other cool addons to mitigate heat buildup. You blow through 400-500 rounds in quick succession with an assault rifle by loading 100-round drums, and the mechanism or barrel can literally melt away. If you're going to try the same stunt with a LMG, the gun will at best be something you can swap barrels on quickly... maybe it'll just be better at absorbing the heat... and at worst, the furniture on the front of the gun might be heavier so that you don't burn yourself on it as quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c AK front end catching fire using drums
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKg9SoVyE9g More AK and drums
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY AR15 at full cyclic using 30 round magazines... around mag 13, minute 2 is where there's a major problem... the gas tube is melting away, the forend catches fire, *and* a round cooks off in the chamber... at 4 minutes and change is when the gas tube goes entirely and the gun becomes a straight-pull bolt-action.

Heh, yeah that's right I remember that AK on fire one, good stuff. Tho I never understood why someone would go "Hey, lets intentionally wreck this gun I own."

I thought the answer was "because I don't have a heavy investment in in heavy weapons skill since it isn't quite as versatile."

Never worked Tech Support, have you? People do stupid things to stuff they own or rent all the time.

I once had to explain that someone was responsible for a Cable Box that they "Cleaned" in the Bathtub with hot water and all-purpose cleaner. $350 for a fifteen-year old piece of electronics.

Well, one would get smaller weapon options from the Automatics skill (and therfore the Firearms group), but the selection of Heavy Weapons offers quite different choices (the grenade and missile launchers, autocannons).

Quite right.

And in Shadowrun, really, if you're at the point of using an AR, you're probably beyond caring about the legality.



Excellent point. Will have to consider this for my new Missions character, it'd save on skill points and as I note above, if you're at the point of rocking an AR you might as well rock an MG.

Plus, there's always the enjoyment of making the troll who showed up with his AR feel inadequate by showing up with an MG with an underbarrel assault cannon.




-karma

I thought it was use an AR if you have to, otherwise use an HMG. Contrary to normal definitions at least one SR-HMG seems man-portable, or why does the Ruhrmetall SF20 have a hip bracing system?

Not man-portable, troll-portable

Indeed. The 8 Bod/8 Str rules make *sense* for HMGs; we know they're huge and crazy.

Many weapons, one purpose. Namely massive firepower.

Maybe you can sneak an MGL-6 in just as well as a Machine pistol, but good luck using it for a quick, silent take-down.
You use ARs because you choose automatics as your prime weapons skill.

Those attribute values are only required if you a) use the optional rule and b) don't use a gyromount. Not using 6 RC that don't cost mod slots and can be used to reduce the running modifier on a heavy weapon is just plain stupid, even if you're an ork or troll.

The question is if I do choose Automatics as prime weapons skill - usually I use the Firearms group, leaving me with AR/Sniper Rifle/Combat Shotgun as long weapons.

Heavy weapon choices are interesting because they offer automatics with more bang, area-effect weapons, and Gauss Rifles for when everything else does not work. I´d take at least pistols on top for concealability/stealth reasons.

Yes, Dakka Dakka. I was just commenting on the bigness of HMGs re: that optional rule. Honestly, I don't think most people should even be able to use a gyromount. That HMG needs to be emplaced.

In case of RL HMGs I agree with you 100%, but the pictures of SR-HMGs look quite different and some even say in their descriptions that they can be made portable. Maybe the HMGs of SR aren't really HMGs but beefed up General Purpose Machine Guns.
The M2 does not even have a stock as it is supposed to be fired from a tripod. IIRC all pictures of HMGs in the SR-books show a stock.

Hmm. I see what you're saying. Either they're intended for the realities of orks and trolls, or you're right that SR is using a different definition (or both, heh). I think you *are* right: if they fired .50 cal, they'd have the DV of the Barrett.

The thing is, then, that HMGs are still so powerful. Per-bullet, stronger than hunting rifles and as strong as the PSG or MA2100 sniper rifles… except it's bursts of 10. Hmm. I guess normal legality, sanity, and GM control handles this.

The reason LMG's are used over AR's (I think of them as more like a SAW than M60):

1. Sustained rate of fire from a tripod/bipod or weapon/gyro mount.
2. Not concerned with mobility
3. Handles recoil better (base models)
4. Better range

Yeah, M60 is medium or 'Shadowrun-heavy'.

Yet a -249 is classified as light.

MG's are for sustained fire, AR's for burst fire.

A 249 *is* light. It shoots 5.56. M60 shoots 7.62x51.

Whaaaaa-oh that's right it is. Burst v. sustained fire still applies though.

Doesn't matter much in Shadowrun Terms though, as burst fire modifiers don't factor in against hardened armor or Itnw

Of course, this is Shadowrun, a fraggin' TAC-NUKE was "Not enough gun" (to quote the Saint of Killers) in Chicago!

It is funny how totally underpowered LMGs are in SR compared to reality.

The infantry tactics I was taught revolved around the LMGs. 1 LMG equalled 5 ARs in firepower. Whenever an enemy LMG was spotted, you immediatedly called it out and it was made a priority target.

With the sort of recoil compensation available for ARs in shadowrun, you could argue that they would be able to do most of the things that makes LMGs so effective - the ability to (mainly through weight and bipod) to provide accurate burst fire with very short time between bursts. With no overheating rules (perhaps a progress in materials science), 2070s science seem to have made it possible to squeeze almost all LMG advantages into an AR-sized package. The LMG is now, rather than the main infantry weapon, merely an AR with longer range and a belt feed option. The increased recoil, I can't make that fit...