Not if you have two or more modular arms. Just put the one with all the illegal mods in the clay and walk through the checkpoint with the legal one. You could also just order an arm with the right specifications to your destination. This would get expensive though, if you plan to travel a lot.

Or just put the arm with all your guns and other weird stuff and have it shipped via Smuggler Express ™.

If you go that route anyway, you could also just smuggle yourself, or go with fake diplomatic papers.

just to rain on the parade

You can read that both ways. Either "It" (the machine gun) cannot be upgraded further or the "integral gas-vent system" cannot be upgraded.

Upgrading also implies that you improve an existing system, it does not as much imply adding new systems.

Furthermore the only type of upgrades known from the BBB are accessories, so the sentence does not say anything about modifications, which are introduced ba Arsenal.

Kinda implies that by default a gas-vent system can be 'upgraded' once it is attached ... even though this is then contradicted by the Ingram smartgun on the Street Samurai sample character and no mention of this restriction is mention in arsenal.

Make of that what you will

You can upgrade a GV-2 to a GV-3, generally. For the White Knight, I assumed they were just reiterating that it was maxed out.

The quoted lines only say that you cannot add a gas vent to another gas vent, you can however replace one with a better one.

So that line means that cannot replace the Gas Vent 5 with... oh, right, that's already the best one available.

Sr4a p. 320 '...cannot be further upgraded.'

You cannot add a foregrip, bipod, shockpad, smartlink, or personalized grip on an Ingram White Knight.

See my post #55.

Isn't it gas vent 4 + stock for 5 points of recoil?

Nope, it is 5(6).

You can still gyro-mount it and shockpads/sings I'd allow.

Why those and not other non-gas-vent "upgrades"?

[silliness]Is using other, better ammunition an upgrade? What about regular ammunition. As is a weapon comes without ammunition. are you allowed to load it, since this would certainly be an upgrade [/silliness]

Why not others I didn't say no I just said I'd defently gut reaction wise allow those. But for most if not all gun I'm as a GM and play not a fan of the can not be upgraded/modifed lines.

Ok, then I misunderstood you. As you may have guessed I'm of the opinion that the "cannot be further upgraded" applies only to the gas vent anyway.

Ditto. If they wanted to say the White Knight was (for some impossible reason) unable to be upgraded at all, they would have given it a separate sentence.

And grammatically you are correct.



Because the bolded and is there instead of a comma the italicized only applies to the gas vent.

Yeah, "that provides 5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded" pretty obviously refers to the integral gas-vent system.

There's absolutely nothing else in the description of the gun to warrant any belief that there is some bizarre magic force keeping you from attaching a strap to it or breaking out the Bedazzler for a session of "Pimp My Gun."

Let's get reasonable, people.

reasonable? on dumpshock? sorry, i'm out of popcorn.

It was the double recoil and identical damage code that made LMGs unattractive.

It's a tradeoff, like everything.

The only problem is there is little tradeoff. Modifications like longer barrel and additional clip quickly make the differences between the LMG and AR negligible from a game perspective. Couple this players who deal with less recoil and you quickly have an obsolete weapon class.

The recoil modifiers bother me for the LMG by doubling them even though the ammo is nearly identical to an AR. SAW equivalent 5.56mm round

Then you have the MMGs which are firing larger rounds more in line with the sport rifles, but doing the same damage as an AR. M-60 or M240G equivalent 7.62mm round

Finally you have the HMGs which should fire the same rounds as the Barrett Model M121, but does less damage and less AP. M2 equivalent 12.7mm round

Anything larger should be in the assault cannon range.

I took it to mean that you cannot upgrade it for any further recoil suppression. I assume the recoil comes from the integral gas vent, heavy weight (implied) and a folding stock for its recoil. It could not accept or benefit from any further recoil damping.

You're not choosing between LMG and AR. You're choosing between Heavy Weapons and Automatics. Yes, Automatics are almost always better, especially if you're sinking lots of cash into heavily modded guns (double dual clips, etc.). No, you would not choose LMGs as your primary weapon, but no one would (even in Call of Duty ).

However, if you need a belted gun, especially a belted FA gun >LMG, *and* maybe you also shoot rockets, cannons, etc., you'll be glad the LMG is there for your Heavy Weapons skill. Besides, the Ultimax is a FA, belted Walther 2100 sniper rifle, and the Stoner-Ares M202 is FA, belted, and an additional -1 AP over the ARs (and much more range). If you feel the game lacks a 50cal HMG, stat one up; however, you may be leaving out the effect of +9 (or even +14) to DV or -9/14 to Dodge, or being able to attack as many as 5 targets at once when you compare these weapons to their rifle equivalents (within the SR game mechanic).

I wouldn't rule that the White Knight can't have *other* recoil mods.

LMG can have all the same mods as AR can.
And barrel extension being %-based is even better on LMG than it is on AR.
And additional clip makes for a pretty crazy ammo capasity of 500(two drums of 250 belted rounds)

That actually gave me an idea for a weapon for one of my troll character-concepts, a FN MAG-5 with additional clip, that 500 rounds means 50 rounds of full-auto fire, should be enough for almost any run

Honestly, I haven't decided if dual clips applies to drums/belt-feeds (or if you could make a 250-drum), but yes. You could just bring a belt-box.

I'd probably use lots of Suppression, because it's nice.

The fact that Machine Guns are Belt Fed, and AR's are not, is a big plus in their favor as well...
At least in my opinion...

When it comes to throwing lead downrange, nothing beats a belt fed machine gun...

Keep the Faith

I genraly in my games drop the x2 recoil for shotguns and LMGs I keep it for MMG upwards. My reason its a bit senseless. As for why LMG over AR dircet ammo capacity is a big plus range and and such is another. Sure you can mod a gun an AR to beatter an LMG in those feilds buts its pricy and a simaly modded LMG will still top the AR.

When equipping a vehicle or a drone with a mounted weapon LMG's come into their own thanks to the belt feed. Who wants their drone running out after three seconds?

Add to this that an assault rifle like the Ares Alpha can have extended clips and extra clips added onto its already large (42c) capacity. It makes a 50c or 100c belt addon for a LMG pretty worthless.

Same Damage Code. - Tie
Same Clip Capacity. - Tie
Same Price Code. - Assault Rifles take the cake.
Same Armor Piercing. - Tie
Attack Modes. - Assault Rifles take the cake as they have SA/BF/FA compared to LMGs limited BF/FA

Beyond the Gas Vent 5 of the Ingram White Knight.. there really isn't any reason to take a LMG unless you are running around Full Auto Bursting everything in sight.

Or you want the increased range, which I notice you left off the list. It's not that much until you get to Extreme, but it can easily mean you get to gun down the enemy for an extra Turn or two while distance is closed.

If you count ammo as a tie, then you can't count Price as a tie, because you're paying for extended and/or dual clips; belt-ability isn't ignorable, either. Anyway, why *aren't* you bursting everything in sight?

You also left out that Heavy Weapons *can't* use Suppressors, which is the most important difference for me:

AR (smaller, Automatics, suppressable) vs. LMG (increased range, belt-fed, drone-mount)

I kind of imagine the White Knight as an LMG copy of the Ares Alpha.

They both feature a "magic" 2 points of free recoil compensation

The White Knight comes with a gas vent 3. If you had the gas vent 3 to an alpha, you get the same effect.

Weapon design has always been a little sketchy in Shadowrun as it appears to have typically been done by people who have no real practical knowledge of weaponry. And the fact that the rules don't really have any way to reflect the differences in firing rates. Add to this the ability for weapons to mount all kinds of crazy modifications, yeah, there's rarely any reason to carry an LMG over an assault rifle unless you're prone to using excessive amounts of ammunition. With the kinds of magazine capacities (I hate that this game calls them clips, lol) of some of the assault rifles and how blindingly fast they can be reloaded by some characters, the belt is almost a hindrance. Everything that makes squad support weapons so valuable on the battlefield isn't really molded into Shadowrun.

Reducing their damage code made sense, since they should be firing the same or similar ammunition to assault rifles. But without any other kind of game modeling they are just heavier.

In a Shadowrun, LMGs are a special-use item, like a Sporting Rifle or a Sniper Rifle. Yes, they're handy to have around, but their uses are rather limited for the cost/weight/ect.

Now, if you're running a Merc game then they're great to have (Not as much need for concealment), or need to blend into a Fire Unit of Aztlan Soldiers in the "1,000,000 Miguel Army" then you'd better have the right equipment.

Heh, I also think the PC walking in with the LMG is going to draw some concern as well, gyromount or no

Sure there is. I can think of a few methods that will allow a PC to do just such a thing.

It's just that none of them are what you would call "Subtle".

But the gyromount is still forbidden even if you are neither carrying any weapon nor intending to use one.

[Edit]: Double post.

Depends? Does it have a camera on it? Are you using it to shoot some 'Trid that will give good publicity to the Corp?

Might not be disallowed then, now would it?

Who carries a gyromount but no gun?

The person that spent all their money on the Gyromount and now can't even afford a Streetline Special or Colt Asp?

Well put

The sporting rifle is a specialty weapon? I will have to heartily disagree there.

Go buy one, get a fake hunting license for it, pimp it out with a high powered scope and anything else that you want, and feel safe that harrassment will be kept to a minimum because while it's almost as deadly as a sniper rifle, it's FAR more legal.

That constitutes 'specialty'.

Yeah, but it's not something you're going to whip out at a moment's notice and use in a firefight, like a Pistol (When you're going to get soymilk) or an SMG (When you're on a 'Run.).

It's something you keep in the trunk of your car and pull out when you need to solve a long-term solution at long-ranges.

Or, you know, when you actually go hunting. I mean, think of it... Sliced New Boar sandwiches!

Assault Rifles still take the cake though. I mean, sure you can have belt fed LMG, but do you know how heavy those damn boxes of ammo are to carry around with you?

Not to mention sometimes you need to do Single Shots and an Assault Rifle with a good scope is a great sniping weapon. Plus concealability, legality and availability are another matter.

The Ak-97 has a 4 availability. Thats almost akin to being able to walk into Wal-Mart and getting one. Where a LMG takes a bit longer.

LMGs are horrible devestating weapons that when wielded just right act as force multipliers. Laying down cover fire and assault points that no Assault Rifle without supreme modding could ever hope to achieve.

But unfortunately, there is no real dynamic for that in the game except for Suppressive Fire, which, while not bad, is not the greatest.

Certainly. I don't think anyone's saying that ARs aren't better for *almost* all situations.

Well the base question coes ofcource both ways, why would a take an AR that needs the automatic skill when i can use a LMG with the same skill i use my assault cannon.
Also adding SA mode to MG is a simple mod.