xm-8 r teh winnar.
I like the little Shadowrun touches they mention at the end of the article - adding a numeric ammo counter to the field of vision of the sight, so you won't have to look away from the target to check magazine status, and an electronic monitor system so's you can check rounds fired over the weapon's lifetime by waving a reader over it...
Full Version: for the gun nuts in the house
Seems like that rifle was the basis for the HALO assualt rifle. Almost exactly the same.
Here's some pics for those of you who haven't seen the XM8 yet.
http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showfl...sb=5&o=&fpart=1
It's basically a clone of the G36 dressed up in a Buck Rogers frame. For me, the jury is out until I get to shoot one.
http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showfl...sb=5&o=&fpart=1
It's basically a clone of the G36 dressed up in a Buck Rogers frame. For me, the jury is out until I get to shoot one.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| Seems like that rifle was the basis for the HALO assualt rifle. Almost exactly the same. |
Not exactly. This is the Rifle that inspired the Halo Assault Rifle:
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearm...ult/fn2000.html
And while the Rifle in the HALO 2 trailers looks a bit like the XM8 (debateable), the Halo one is a Bullpup and the XM8 is not.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Check out the HK handgun sized SMG. MP7A1 -Siege |
The MP7 certainly has that "coolness" factor, but I'm pretty suspicious about how effective the ammunition is. You probably would need to burn through at least half a 20 round magazine to down a determined opponent. Sure, it will make neat little holes in soft body armor, but it will probably make neat little holes in flesh as well. Not much hydrostatic shock and a very small wound cavity. I would take a UMP chambered in .45 any day over an MP7.
I can't say yea or nay, but the blurb mentions penetration ability versus Russian body armor.
I would be interested in watching how the weapon performs, although I'm still a fan of the .45.
-Siege
I would be interested in watching how the weapon performs, although I'm still a fan of the .45.
-Siege
It's going to make a wound that looks pretty much like this, except slightly smaller in diameter (4.6mm vs 5.56mm), larger temporary cavity, and probably tumbles a bit sooner (slightly more rear-heavy bullet). This is certainly better against flesh, and this maybe even better.
It would be great to see statistics on where (which body parts) soldiers get bullet wounds to. It's possible that limb wounds from .45s might be better at incapacitating the target than torso hits from the 4.6x30. On the other hand, the .45ACP (except maybe the odd armor piercing round, if there are such things) will not penetrate any body armor in use by any armed forces that I'm aware of, so you'd have to actively avoid shooting people center-mass.
The desert-colored XM8s look like toys. It ain't a gun if it ain't matte black!
I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts!
It would be great to see statistics on where (which body parts) soldiers get bullet wounds to. It's possible that limb wounds from .45s might be better at incapacitating the target than torso hits from the 4.6x30. On the other hand, the .45ACP (except maybe the odd armor piercing round, if there are such things) will not penetrate any body armor in use by any armed forces that I'm aware of, so you'd have to actively avoid shooting people center-mass.
The desert-colored XM8s look like toys. It ain't a gun if it ain't matte black!
I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts!
| QUOTE |
| 1. It’s light. The baseline carbine model currently weighs in at 6.25 pounds (the objective weight is 5.7 pounds), including an integrated sight with infrared laser and illuminator, red dot reflex sight and integrated mount. By comparison, an M4 modular weapon system with rail attachment, backup sights, M68 Close Combat Optic and standard laser/illuminator systems tips the scales at 8.85 pounds. |
Gee, I know my SR PCs have a lot of pistols heavier than the XM8, and some get close to the M4...
May the Powers That Be have mercy on my soul, for I am about to Dabble with the Occult, ie Use the CC Firearm Design System.
Assault Rifle
Barrel Reduction (+8DP, -.25kg)
Ceramic Components-1 (+20DP, -0.1kg)
Weight Decrease-8 (+40DP, -2kg)
Laser Sight, High-Powered, Top (+280DP, +.25kg)
The weapon now weighs 3.9kg, 1.3kg over the target weight. This is the lightest an Assault Rifle can be, using the creation system, if it has a Laser Sight. Funny, that.
Assault Rifle
Barrel Reduction (+8DP, -.25kg)
Ceramic Components-1 (+20DP, -0.1kg)
Weight Decrease-8 (+40DP, -2kg)
Laser Sight, High-Powered, Top (+280DP, +.25kg)
The weapon now weighs 3.9kg, 1.3kg over the target weight. This is the lightest an Assault Rifle can be, using the creation system, if it has a Laser Sight. Funny, that.
The XM8 is definitely an improvement over the M16/M4 platform (so is the HKM4 for that matter), but it will be a lot cooler if they decide to go with a new cartridge that's worth a crap past 150 meters, like the 6.8x43mm SPC (which the rifle is designed to accomodate). Not very likely, but we can hope.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| The MP7 certainly has that "coolness" factor, but I'm pretty suspicious about how effective the ammunition is. You probably would need to burn through at least half a 20 round magazine to down a determined opponent. |
Considering the role that PDWs are designed for, that's just about exactly what you're supposed to do. Spray and pray. Considering the almost non-existent recoil, it's not much of a problem to dump five rounds into someone at 7-10 meters. The round will make short work of most body armor, and five relatively close-together wound cavities are going to be a mess to clean up.
Not that I'm advocating the PDW concept, but it sounds better when you think about it in context of the environment it's designed to be used in. I'd still rather use a suppressed compact assault rifle myself, get the penetration AND a better wound cavity per shot. Hell, a 7.62x39mm AP load (Barnaul 7N23) would just about RULE in that kind of situation (the aforementioned 6.8x43mm is right up there, too), but since the 7.62x39mm is old (and Russian) it doesn't get a lot of credit. The perils of a free market economy: Old stuff must suck because it's old.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts! |
Not too far off, there. I can see a piezoelectric spring tension gauge being viable, or perhaps a sensor along the inside length of the magazine body that measures the position of the follower within the body. Something like that, maybe, with a connection point to the weapon where the magazine lock connects (or perhaps another connection entirely, like a camera flash). From there it's just a matter of getting the signal from the electronics to the sight, and if they're talking about using wireless technology already, that's really not tough at all. The dependence on electricity kind of sucks, but I think it's just something we're all going to have to get used to. Doesn't seem to be any stopping it.
I heard rumors about the XM8 being tested for 6.8 SPC and one of the benefits of the XM8 system being that it was relatively easy to refit for different calibers. Is there any substance to that?
Also, wouldn't 5.7x28mm be better for comparison to 4.6x30mm?
Also, wouldn't 5.7x28mm be better for comparison to 4.6x30mm?
Not sure this was the gun I saw on "Modern Marvels" on the history channel last night, but it seemed the same. Course, that one also had 20 mm HE airburst/rangefinder ammo too. 
The gun you're thinking of is the OICW, which has, of late, been designated XM29. The XM29 is a two part system incorporating a 20mm, electronically controlled, bullpup configured, six round box fed grenade launcher and an extremely short barreled carbine 'kineteic energy' system, which is basically just a really small G36. The entire thing was designed to replace the M16/M203 package and give grenadiers a dedicated weapon for fire support.
Incidentally, the XM29's KE system is what the XM8 was based on, which was in turn based on the G36.
Incidentally, the XM29's KE system is what the XM8 was based on, which was in turn based on the G36.
Even though its not a real gun, I'm always going to be partial to the M41A pulse rifle from Aliens. Wierd how that seemed so hightechy and impossible to me at the time of the movie, but with today's technology advancements, scifi guns aren't that far away.
Heck, also in that Modern Marvels program, along with the Metalstorm gun system, they had a pistol that struck me as very Judge Dredd like with multiple caliber/use rounds.
Heck, also in that Modern Marvels program, along with the Metalstorm gun system, they had a pistol that struck me as very Judge Dredd like with multiple caliber/use rounds.
Interesting trivia -- the Aliens Pulse rifle was a Thompson SMG frame with some bits grafted on.
-Siege
-Siege
and in my opinion one of the most asthetically pleaseing assault rifles ive ever seen.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| and in my opinion one of the most asthetically pleaseing assault rifles ive ever seen. |
| QUOTE (Raygun) | ||
Not too far off, there. I can see a piezoelectric spring tension gauge being viable, or perhaps a sensor along the inside length of the magazine body that measures the position of the follower within the body. Something like that, maybe, with a connection point to the weapon where the magazine lock connects (or perhaps another connection entirely, like a camera flash). From there it's just a matter of getting the signal from the electronics to the sight, and if they're talking about using wireless technology already, that's really not tough at all. The dependence on electricity kind of sucks, but I think it's just something we're all going to have to get used to. Doesn't seem to be any stopping it. |
Technologically it might not be a problem, but clips = disposable, and can't see most governments being won over by expensive yet rather unnecessary tech - if most governments wont do it, then it wont catch on, what with NATO standards and all. At best it'll be a nice toy for special forces to play with, but given the dependancy on electronics it probably wont catch on with them either.
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||
|
Wow. Just... wow.
And on a side note, the Thompson gun was cool. We need an influx of Thompson-wielding Shadowrunners.
~J
Ooh. Ohh. And fedoras and long coats and 140 year old Buicks and drum mags and liquor and ooh it'd be great.
I need to get me a good fedora.
"Roland was a warrior from the land of the midnight sun..."
~J
"Roland was a warrior from the land of the midnight sun..."
~J
Hey, I like the idea of a 9M SMG. 
-Siege
-Siege
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel) | ||||
Technologically it might not be a problem, but clips = disposable, and can't see most governments being won over by expensive yet rather unnecessary tech - if most governments wont do it, then it wont catch on, what with NATO standards and all. At best it'll be a nice toy for special forces to play with, but given the dependancy on electronics it probably wont catch on with them either. |
well i dont realy see the problem. a small cheap meter connected to the spring that act mutch like the controller dial of a stereo and a small rdif tag that contains needed info like how big a jump there is from round to round and a max round number. all this is inert until you stuff the clip in a gun and then it will show how many rounds are left after reading the meter and rdif tag. both are available in high amounts and are cheap.
the real electronics can be embedded in the gun. just dont forget batterys to the display
All of which adds unnecessarily to weight, complexity, and cost. Now look at what a soldier wants in a weapon: reliability, simplicity, accuracy, and lightweight. What does the government whos paying for it want? Cheapness.
Electronics like this add to complexity, detract from reliability, make no difference to accuracy, and add weight and expense. The only thing it does add is cinematic coolness. Personally, I'd think they were more a hinderance than a help since they'd get soldiers out of the habit physically checking ammunition, so if the system did break they'd be screwed - as well as it adding an otherwise unnecessary destraction.
Look at it this way, how many times have you installed a new printer cartridge and it's not been registered because the contacts are dirty? The same thing would happen more often with a weapon cartridge outside in the mud. How many times has the counter on your gun at laserquest been defective? That's indoors in a controlled environment, one whack outside and you might as well not bother in the first place. How many times in laserquest do you check your ammo? If it's all the time, then it's destracting, if it's almost never, then why bother with the counter.
Electronics like this add to complexity, detract from reliability, make no difference to accuracy, and add weight and expense. The only thing it does add is cinematic coolness. Personally, I'd think they were more a hinderance than a help since they'd get soldiers out of the habit physically checking ammunition, so if the system did break they'd be screwed - as well as it adding an otherwise unnecessary destraction.
Look at it this way, how many times have you installed a new printer cartridge and it's not been registered because the contacts are dirty? The same thing would happen more often with a weapon cartridge outside in the mud. How many times has the counter on your gun at laserquest been defective? That's indoors in a controlled environment, one whack outside and you might as well not bother in the first place. How many times in laserquest do you check your ammo? If it's all the time, then it's destracting, if it's almost never, then why bother with the counter.
hay i didnt say it had any practical use, i just said that there was no need for expensive electronics in the clip itself so that it could fit into the category of disposable
and the only gun i know of that is both reliable and cheap is the ak. you got to hand it to the old soviets, there where allways thinking simple and working rather then stylish and overdesigned
and the only gun i know of that is both reliable and cheap is the ak. you got to hand it to the old soviets, there where allways thinking simple and working rather then stylish and overdesigned
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Feb 27 2004, 10:57 AM) |
| All of which adds unnecessarily to weight, complexity, and cost. Now look at what a soldier wants in a weapon: reliability, simplicity, accuracy, and lightweight. What does the government whos paying for it want? Cheapness. Electronics like this add to complexity, detract from reliability, make no difference to accuracy, and add weight and expense. The only thing it does add is cinematic coolness. Personally, I'd think they were more a hinderance than a help since they'd get soldiers out of the habit physically checking ammunition, so if the system did break they'd be screwed - as well as it adding an otherwise unnecessary destraction. Look at it this way, how many times have you installed a new printer cartridge and it's not been registered because the contacts are dirty? The same thing would happen more often with a weapon cartridge outside in the mud. How many times has the counter on your gun at laserquest been defective? That's indoors in a controlled environment, one whack outside and you might as well not bother in the first place. How many times in laserquest do you check your ammo? If it's all the time, then it's destracting, if it's almost never, then why bother with the counter. |
After having watched the "History of the M-16" on the History Channel, I gotta disagree.
The Government wants the neatest toys by the lowest bidder. And it depends on who's doing the approving, testing, the acquisition reports, who's sleeping with whom and who knows about it, etc.
I still wonder what might have happened if they'd just copied the damned AK, made a few changes and issued it out?
-Siege
Edit: And how many REMFs with no combat experience or practical knowledge in weapon systems and their implementation have input to procurement?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| "Roland was a warrior from the land of the midnight sun..." |
"With a Thompson gun for hire...Fightin' to be done..."
One of the only songs I know that actually rhymes something with the word "Congolese."
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel) |
| All of which adds unnecessarily to weight, complexity, and cost. |
A few metal contacts in a clip to see which bullets are in which position? You're talking additions in terms of milligrams in the clip and a few grams for the LED counter display on the rifle.
| QUOTE |
| The only thing it does add is cinematic coolness. |
Actually, it adds at least a couple of additional things:
1) The soldier doesn't have to look away from the enemy to check how many rounds he has in the current magazine.
2) Including a "life time counter" is a useful maintenance tool. It answers the question: how many rounds has this rifle fired?
As the original article said:
| QUOTE |
| About the only improvement my colleagues and I could suggest would involve integrating some type of ammo-level indicator — either a numeric device or a graduated bar — into the optical sight so the shooter would know precisely how much ammo remains in the magazine(s). The clear-sided magazine now makes it possible to do this with a glance, but that requires the shooter to look away from the enemy’s direction. The Army is considering adding some type of lifetime monitoring system to each weapon, Army Times has learned, so data such as the number of rounds fired during a particular timeframe or over the entire life of a weapon could be retrieved by waving an electronic reader over the weapon. The system might also include the ability to inventory the weapons with an electronic reader. |
| QUOTE |
| Look at it this way, how many times have you installed a new printer cartridge and it's not been registered because the contacts are dirty? |
You're talking about very fine contacts that involve a lot of data. You could probably count ammo in a clip with two broad, clip-encircling contacts.
And even part-time functionality out of the magazine counter is better than nothing. It's not like having the counter will jam the soldier's ability to check the clip manually when the counter breaks.
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| 1) The soldier doesn't have to look away from the enemy to check how many rounds he has in the current magazine. 2) Including a "life time counter" is a useful maintenance tool. It answers the question: how many rounds has this rifle fired? |
The second should be pretty easy to do without having any sort of sensors in the magazine itself. If the magazine can count how many rounds it has in it, it should be pretty easy to allow the gun to count how many rounds it has fired without any input from the mag.
For the usual soldiering, having the weapon count the amount of rounds fired since last reload should be almost exactly as useful as having the magazine give this data to the gun. It should be very rare for the magazines to have any other number of rounds in it than the standard (30).
Not saying that smartmags can't/won't happen, just that if you can get pretty much the same advantages with all the important pieces in the weapon itself, then it's probable they'll do that instead. By 2060s, there would mostly likely be a lot of smartmags around, and they might even see a lot of use by armed forces. But for the immediate future, for the M8/M29, having the gun do the counting seems more likely to me.
Actually, not sure if this is what you're saying, but the number of bullets in the magazine doesn't need to be relevant to a total-rounds-fired counter. It could, y'know, increment when a round is fired.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Actually, not sure if this is what you're saying, but the number of bullets in the magazine doesn't need to be relevant to a total-rounds-fired counter. It could, y'know, increment when a round is fired. |
I'm so tired that my mind is probably in a place where language and communication work in really weird ways. I looked at this for a while, and I have no idea what it means. Mostly because I kept thinking about the word "relevant" and how it can't possibly mean anything.
Maybe you mean that there could be separate counters: One built into the weapon itself, keeping track of total rounds fired by the weapon; one built into the magazines, keeping track of # of rounds in the magazine. Is that it?
What I'm basically saying is that it might be easier to have just one counter in the weapon which keeps track of # of rounds fired, but with 2 methods of outputting that information. It would have a tiny memory chip that could be read and would show the total # of rounds fired with the weapon in it's lifetime, and it would also show the # of rounds fired since last reload on the weapon's sight.
Am I making any sense at all, or should I just assume that I'm making sense and not give a damn what you say?
As in, you seem to be saying that the total-rounds counter would assume that a clip is full each time, while I'm saying that the total-rounds counter could detect each firing of a bullet rather than working off of clips expended. A relatively minor point, and it may or may not be feasible, I'm not familiar with the mechanics. Otherwise, you were making sense.
~J
~J
Could do both. The gun just pays attention to how many rounds are fired, and every 30 rounds it resets the main readout that's under the rear sight. It could even have a sensor that only gets tripped if the clip reads empty earlier than expected.
As far as the whole "hard to look at" thing for the round counter, you could have it on a reflex site, mounted on the barrel or recievier component. Or the Marines from Aliens, although probably not so large (both number and display)
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| As in, you seem to be saying that the total-rounds counter would assume that a clip is full each time [...] |
Then I have been unclear, because I was trying to say that there really wouldn't be a "total-rounds counter", just a generic counter. For every round fired the counter counts, one is added to the "total rounds fired with weapon". The "rounds fired" display on the sight would be re-zeroed each time the weapon is reloaded -- triggered for example by the magazine leaving the mag well.
Ah, I see. Understood.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Req) | ||
"With a Thompson gun for hire...Fightin' to be done..." |
R.I.P. Warren Zevon.
Requiescat in pace indeed.
I'm enjoying every sandwich.
~J
I'm enjoying every sandwich.
~J
He had a few damn good Shadowrun-type songs, such as the afformentioned Roland, and Lawyers, Guns, and Money.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| I heard rumors about the XM8 being tested for 6.8 SPC and one of the benefits of the XM8 system being that it was relatively easy to refit for different calibers. Is there any substance to that? |
Yep, it's true. (Hence the "designed to accomodate" line in my post.) The 6.8x43mm is in use by US Special Operations as we speak in modified M16-based rifles (SPR - Special Purpose Rifle; kind of an urban sniper rifle). However, I don't know how likely it is that the cartridge will be adopted for general issue as a replacement for the 5.56x45mm. There's an awful lot of political and logistical inertia to overcome in order for that kind of thing to happen. Maybe too much.
| QUOTE |
| Also, wouldn't 5.7x28mm be better for comparison to 4.6x30mm? |
Yeah, if you're comparing similar platforms (very compact CQB-based weapons), rather than overall target effectiveness. Both cartridges are pretty anemic when it comes to terminal ballistic performance.
Over the past 30 years, there have been innumerable complaints about the effectiveness of the 5.56x45mm. These two cartridges are even poorer performers, terminally speaking, especially if you consider non-fragmenting AP loads. In the case of the 5.7x28mm versus the 5.56x45mm, you're dealing with a bullet that weighs half as much moving 20% slower (P90 to M4). You're not going to get better performance with less mass and less velocity. Period. The 4.6x30mm is even worse. From a practical point of view, it means that you have to hit several times in order to get the desired effect. Fine if you like to spray bullets around. Not real good if you expect one shot to do the trick.
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| Even though its not a real gun, I'm always going to be partial to the M41A pulse rifle from Aliens. Wierd how that seemed so hightechy and impossible to me at the time of the movie, but with today's technology advancements, scifi guns aren't that far away. |
If you pick up the Colonial Marines Technical Manual and check out the technical specs the thing is supposed to have, you'll find out in pretty short order that the M41A is still VERY far off. It's supposed to fire a 10mm, 210 grain explosive armor piercing bullet at 840 meters per second (2755 fps). In today's terms, that's up in .300 Winchester Magnum territory. From sheer kinetic effect alone, all modern body armor is pretty much useless in the face of that. Now, a standard M41A is supposed to carry 100 rounds in a magazine. Yeah. Weighing in at 4.9kg (10.8 pounds; heavy!) fully loaded, you're talking about recoil on the order of 17 fpe @ 10 fps. Not unmanageable for a semi-auto, but certainly not easy to control in full auto (@900 rpm!) without some serious recoil compensation (which is explained in a manner somewhat similar to how the G11 works). It's still out there.
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel) |
| Technologically it might not be a problem, but clips = disposable, |
In theory, anyway. Magazines are supposed to be cheap to produce so that if one is lost during combat, which happens, the military doesn't get bankrupted. But I can't think of a military around today that just tells their soldiers to throw away mags after 30 rounds go through it. Not real cost-effective and not real smart in a lot of situations.
| QUOTE |
| and can't see most governments being won over by expensive yet rather unnecessary tech - if most governments wont do it, then it wont catch on, what with NATO standards and all. At best it'll be a nice toy for special forces to play with, but given the dependancy on electronics it probably wont catch on with them either. |
While I do think that something like this is generally unnecessary, I don't think something like this would really add all that much cost, weight or complexity to individual magazines or rifles if applied with a modicum of ingenuity. It's not like something like this has to be absolutely integral to the weapon's operation, so reliability of the weapon is really not a significant issue. It's a neat idea, but you're right. Pretty much a toy.
Dependency on electronics has already made its way down to squad-level combat in the majority of NATO armies. Tacking on one more thing really isn't going to make a lot of difference, I don't think. I don't much like the idea either, but it's too late. We're already there.
Another, more limited way of going about an electronic ammunition counter.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Yep, it's true. (Hence the "designed to accomodate" line in my post.) The 6.8x43mm is in use by US Special Operations as we speak in modified M16-based rifles (SPR - Special Purpose Rifle; kind of an urban sniper rifle). |
Erp. Completely read over that, somehow.
Also, I thought the SPR was designed for 5.56x45mm?
The 6.8x43mm SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge) is part of the Special Purpose Rifle program, which is designed to provide M16-platform weapons with better long-range performance for precision rifle work out to 600 meters. SPRs are chambered in 5.56x45mm (using the mk262 load; 77 grain Matchking) and 6.8x43mm, with the SPR-V (Knight's SR47) being chambered for 7.62x39mm, using "battlefield pickup" AK magazines. The SCAR (SOF Combat Assault Rifle) program is also using the 6.8x43mm.
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel @ Feb 27 2004, 04:24 AM) |
| can't see most governments being won over by expensive yet rather unnecessary tech |
*cough*Commanche*cough*
*cough*F-22*cough*
*cough*Crusader*cough*
The US Army cancelled the Commanche six days ago. Buying more Black Hawks instead, among other things.
Crusader was effectively terminated almost two years ago. The funding is going towards other Future Combat Systems.
F-22 is still going, AFAIK. I think we're going to need something to supplement an aging fleet (wing) of F-15s, personally. But that's just me.
However, there is a substantial difference between things that cost millions per unit and things that cost hundreds. When you're talking about tacking on maybe another $5-10 per unit, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Couldn't hurt, but it wouldn't help much, either. *shrug*
Crusader was effectively terminated almost two years ago. The funding is going towards other Future Combat Systems.
F-22 is still going, AFAIK. I think we're going to need something to supplement an aging fleet (wing) of F-15s, personally. But that's just me.
However, there is a substantial difference between things that cost millions per unit and things that cost hundreds. When you're talking about tacking on maybe another $5-10 per unit, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Couldn't hurt, but it wouldn't help much, either. *shrug*
Highly mobile, easily transportable, "smart" artillery is still a good thing.
Unfortunately, the Crusader didn't meet any of the requirements -- and the name choice was unfortunate given the current political climate.
-Siege
Unfortunately, the Crusader didn't meet any of the requirements -- and the name choice was unfortunate given the current political climate.
-Siege
...and don't even get me started on the Stryker... Jeezus, what a money sink.
V-22 Osprey anyone?
Stryker looks good, I'd say, as a vehicle actually useful in MOUT. The Osprey, despite some horrific crashes, is still in service.
I have to say I support both of the described vehicles. We're seeing more and more places where we need small vehicles that are quick and agile. We are deep in the age of urbanization after all.
And what's wrong with the V-22. We need something that has enough range to actually get where we need to be. That can be a real problem. Iranian Hostage Crisis? And then we need to be able to land an maneuver in tight places. I'm glad the Corps has decided to pursue the program.
BTW Raygun, I did know about the cancelations (just so I don't look like a total fool)
And what's wrong with the V-22. We need something that has enough range to actually get where we need to be. That can be a real problem. Iranian Hostage Crisis? And then we need to be able to land an maneuver in tight places. I'm glad the Corps has decided to pursue the program.
BTW Raygun, I did know about the cancelations (just so I don't look like a total fool)
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