For those saying that its unrealistic that APDS ammo is availebul for all types of guns, heres 6.5x25mm CBJ

That some nice armor penetration for a 9mm pistol, would be cool to get to shoot a few clip of that at armored targets.

Might be able to pick some up at a gun show. I was never expecting to be able to snag Hydra-Shok at one.

'Course, I went with the Remington silvertip hollow-point rounds. You never know when a werewolf is going to try to break in.

Good luck with that....

Title 18, sec 101 chap 44

§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition,
unless such sale or delivery--
(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of
the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political
subdivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation;
or
(C ) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized
by the Attorney General;



§921
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun
and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces
of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys,
steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;...

Yeah, Well... That is just a suggestion though... Minor details at most...

Keep the Faith

Yes, because people at gun shows always follow the law.
I realize it's a military round (and you'd have to swap out the barrel on the nine in order to let it fire this stuff), but there are always ways to get a hold of it. It's a sweet round/PDW combo. A micro-UZI that can defeat body armor, low wear ammo with an aluminum jacket?

Any way you knock it, that's pretty damn cool.

Unless you're the one wearing the body armor.

In which case, I would develop a lasting (not long, but lasting) hatred of the Swedish.

Maybe my tortured soul would haunt their manufacturing facility.

Hey, APDS used to always be described as being hard to get (what was the original shadowtalk about it? something about "found a couple of mags at Ft. Lewis once, but I had to use them up just to get out")... no reason to change that now

when I bought my pistol the only rounds I could find for it were these weird copper shots. they didnt say they were armor peircing but they dont fragment when they hit so that all the force hits a small spot and wont break. they were really creepy kinda. also really kinda expensive at like a dollar and a half per shot. also I bought them at sheels so they are legal.

What kinda pistol did you buy?

H&K USP 9mm

copper rounds are bad for the barrel though so I was sort of annyoed I had to use them. also they were expensive like I said.

Reh? You can't find jacketed ammo where you are?

Cripes, order it off the internets. =P

I can now. when I bought the gun there was a stupid shortage because people were freaking that obama was gonna come take their guns. so I couldnt find any ammo then but thats over.

Oh! Ha! I remember that now.

Well, there's good reason people thought that, although he hasn't made a move for it yet and the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the 2nd Ammendment.

Not really. Obama is the president, not a legislator. Maybe there's some things he wouldn't have vetoed, but it's kinda breathtakingly silly that people genuinely start hoarding guns every time a gun control advocate gets into office.

Not silly, just good PR - create a scare out of thin air to make people buy your stuff, then when the imaginary threat fails to materialize take the credit for avoiding it with your "public awareness" campaign. And that doesn't just work with guns

Pff. The time to hoard guns is when there's a pro-gun President in office; it drives the price down.

Yes, the smart people stock up when a pro gun Pres is in office, then make a tidy profit when it swings the other way.

Most major arms manufacturers are publicly traded, why haul around all that metal?

Am I the only one who just got an idea for a plot involving Ares and Horizon?

Because they're fun to shoot. I still need to try out pop's PPK and dual 92F's he picked up recently...

Oh so true. And guns, in and of themselves, are just cool. Of course you don't have to take my word for it, a major news source agrees. (For a given value of "news.")

Not just a major news source, but "America's Finest News Source"

There is never a shortage of stupid.

Your not supposed to bring reality into the conversation that is just not cool

In a RL gun thread? Nawwwww......

Thats just so hialious think to post on a topic titled Real Life.

Why do people get nervous and buy up arms when progressives get in power? Answer: they try and sometimes do outlaw or severely restrict arms at every chance. Below are some highlights

FDR entered office in March 4, 1933. National firearms act 26 June 1934. set us on some tracks heading to tyranny by establishing national control of an inalienable individual right.

Lyndon Johnson November 22, 1963 – January 20, 1969. Gun Control Act of 1968. Established more control and infringement of a fundamental freedom.

1986 machine gun ban was even inserted into progun legislation in the dead of night. Notice ban, so if someone didn't own one already the price was about to skyrocket.

Bill Clinton entered office January 20, 1993. Federal assault weapons ban of 1994. Again if someone didnt already own a qualifying firearm the prices were about to skyrocket from artificial shortages. The same went for magazines with capacity for more than 10 rounds. luckily this one had a sunset.

History has shown that yes bans and theft of freedom can happen even in America.

Hate to be the one to bring the bad news, but the excercise of all freedoms is regulated by laws

yes, hence why there are so many organizations working to protect what is left. that is getting away from my point though which is: there is plenty of evidence that when progressives gain more power watch out for your gun rights and there is plenty of reason for gun enthusiasts to buy all the guns they can. although you make a good point and the same could be said for all rights.

got to say, i always end up with a bit of cognitive dissonance when i encounter news about some weapon or ammo designed and made in the nordics.

Some of those rounds would be USA legal. Some don't fall under the armor pecering rounds law. Though I also doubt that said rounds are armor pecering. Also getting a modified barrel could be hard. And there's the question of weather the none AP rounds are even on par to normal 9mm.

I've not dug deeper than that article though, yet, so who knows?

they could possibly be imported. Armor piercing rounds can be made and purchased in the USA. Trick with that law is pistol rounds that are AP. So its not illegal until the round is put in a pistol. Same as when buying ammo they usually ask if its for a rifle or pistol. If the ammo is for a pistol the age limit is 21 for a rifle its 18.

It could well be for my modded 9mm SMG. I'm just wondering if the barrels would for handguns would be buyable due to the AP link sound like an easy way to keep the rounds out of pistols. Also sounds a bit like a dumb law from my eyes. I'm from the UK (go go OOT (soon to get worse) gun laws). Seeing as the rounds are legal for none pistols. The only reason the law exists would be to prosecute some one a bit more after the fact from my persective.

the law against AP rounds was done by idiot politicians in a climate with the antigun media crying about "cop killer" bullets being on the street. Even though many LE departments wanted the media to shut up about the new rounds since not many knew about them and the rounds were being marketed TO police, as in the company making them was not willing to sell to anyone but LE depts. Heck they even put in language outlawing the use of Teflon coatings because they thought the Teflon helped make the bullets pierce armor, instead of the reality that the Teflon was to reduce barrel wear. Also, the bullets were not as armor piercing as the media portrayed, in fact the ammo was designed for shooting through obstructions like windshields. The law does not apply to rifle ammo because rifle ammo is inherently body armor piercing and there it would have been alot harder here in the land of the free to put in a law that outlawed rifles or rifle ammo. So yes it is a very stupid law done by ignorant, blindly fearful (or possibly just evil) people.

Well to be frank your only really gonna Teflon coat a round that is hard as fuck. Those then to be made to go though body armour. Also yep that law is a pointless as I thought. I should likely be looked at.

Much like our contrys gun laws. There up tight and a mess! So far in the last few months we've had two high profile spree killings( I can only see a review of the laws the is some word of weakening them but I think a complete ban is more likely) and by the looks of things gun crime hasn't really dropped. Of cores it has a bit with all hand guns illegal and any none shotgun above .22 illegal. The completely retarded ban on mock katanas was an odd one. There was a spike in assaults with them so the where made illegal. Its damn hard to get a katna(that's as an effective a weapon as a tyre iron) now but a bastard sword(and not a shitty mock made of of candy) is easy.

You don't seem pleased with being in a country where the large and the many can overpower the physically weak without worry of the weak arming themselves. Why it would make being a bugler much easier, no worry that granny will have a pistol and know how to use it.

oh and I have some brass bullets that are not made to be armor piercing or for enhanced penetration, and I sure wish they were coated in something softer than brass. The rounds are Golden sabers by Remington.

Golden Sabers have a brass jacket for controlled expansion. They do have a good rep, but the core is lead, it's not an AP round at all.

In Germany, pump-action shotguns with removable stock are illegal. If you reworked the weapon's action to semi-auto, it would somehow become less dangerous and therefore legal again...school shooting, government had to pretend to do something, the usual story.

And don't even get me started on the ban of "one-handed combat knives", which are supposedly (that is, according to the MPs responsible for the law) used by roving youth gangs to murder people by the dozens...

Makes you wonder how they would react if someone started going on killing sprees with golf clubs, cricket/baseball bats... etc.

Just think if the confusion of trying to ban those..

Oh wait isn't one of those countries banning sharp point kitchen knives?

APDS doesn't mean "tungsten carbide cored", or "steel cored", which is what a real armor piercing round would be. APDS is "Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot", which basically means that the projectile is encased in another piece that flies out of the barrel of the weapon and is discarded while the projectile, which I guess is fin stabilized if I recall correctly, continues to fly to the target. It's like the sniper rifle in the first Halo. If you watched the firing animation closely you noticed something falling out of the barrel besides for the actual projectile.

So you could always get steel cored ammunition for your weapons, but that's not what SR APDS is. SR APDS is something ridiculous like a smaller diameter fin-stabilized pistol round that's been accelerated by coming out the barrel in an extra container. If someone did something that comically over engineered with a pistol in real life it would probably be so small and high velocity that it wouldn't cause very much trauma to a living target.


By the way, if you want to have solid object penetration from your pistol but don't want to pay ridiculous amounts of money for armor piercing rounds at a gun show, just go with 7.62 x 25 Tokarev. It has excellent penetration for a pistol cartridge. And it is really cheap. The only hard part is finding a pistol that fires it. But J&G Sales has one available right now!

i would say that from a engineering standpoint, the only real diff between a hard cored round, and a discarding sabot round, is when the outer shell is dispersed with. From what i can tell, the use of a hard core and a softer outer surface allows the core to be spin stabilized, just like any other pistol round, but when striking, will shed the outer coating on the armor, while the harder core continues on.

i suspect the APDS name of the SR round is more legacy then anything else, from back when writers made only lip service to physics and was overdosing on cool. So they did a quick check about how armor piercing rounds worked, found some bit about APDS, and typed that in as the name, having little care about how impractical something like that would be in a small round.

as for the crazy, overly specific, weapons laws, i would blame the combo of populist politics and scare-type high media.

end result is that something happens, media blows it out of proportions by way of scare-types, and the politicians in office go "i need to do something to retain the popular vote at the upcoming election!". If you want this fixed, get your local group to vote based on facts, not on popular emotions. And yes, that includes not buying into the whole "wha, they will take away our guns!" kinds of messages.

Well I bet you have a nice smug superior feeling after saying something that generic and lacking of any real detail, direction or substance.

sadly, when it comes to politics, there is no step by step guide with easy to understand pictures to follow.

yea there is. Don't vote for those who try to infringe upon individual rights, especially if they say its for the good of (insert a group here such as children).

Nah, non-voting doesn't really solve any problem...


@MortVent: No, not yet. And to be precise one-handed folding knives (which happens to include boxcutters and everything else) are "just" banned from carrying in public, which if anything makes the law even more laughable.

Ah I do remember something about someone trying to ban sharp point kitchen knives after the gun bans over in the EU.

Plus I still want to see what happens when they turn to sports equipment...


"Well Tommy, we can't play cricket anymore ol chap. They dun outlawed the bats!"

So i guess you didn't read the article i linked to at all.
Becouse 6.5x25mm CBJ really is a APDS pistol round for 9mm pistols/SMG:s.

Oh and that condesending tone is really not needed.

Yeah! What have children ever done for us?

Is that UK or Germany? As I often leave the house with my swis army knife it has two folding bades both >3 inches I sure hope its not illegal to carry what is basicly a screwdriver and bottle opener around.

Also here's a good reason to point at al the inanes Rs and Fs on SR gear. We have it IRL so in SR it's just a sensible.