Sounds like as objective a test of probability manipulation as I can imagine. You ought to claim that million bucks.

I feel I should warn you that internal changes to your state of mind are not considered "magical", "paranormal" or "occult" by most people. It's a great ability to have, there is no doubt, but it is normal.

Since it's required for practitioners of some martial arts beyond some point, then there are loads of people around who can do that, correct? Then it should not strike you as weird that someone else has already tried to convince Mr Randi with that particular ability before. And considering just how acute human senses are, that ability is almost certainly based on very normal senses, even if you are unconscious of that.

Predicting an attack when blind is nothing compared to what some people have already claimed that can do. It can be done with your senses of touch and hearing, without anything paranormal about it whatsoever. Predicting the future cannot. Changing the pH value of a liquid in another room with a thought cannot. It is experiments like the pH value changing that Dashifen mentioned that should be brought to the JREF.

In general:
The whole thing about comparing the extremely slight (more or less) paranormal powers and events witnessed by people here to the magic system of SR is much like if I compared my time in a physics lab with a laser pointer to the ANDREWS system in R3, and claimed that the ANDREWS shouldn't really use much electricity because the laser pointer didn't.

You are correct sir. The book's first chapter is on the subject matter that I illuded to above. The rest of the book does deal with Wiccan techniques. I'll try to get together a list of the information included in the first chapter and PM it to you. The two examples I listed above are the two I remember off the top of my head. A quick google for "water ph lower ritual" got me nothing, but that doesn't surprise me too much.

Like I mentioned, there seems to be a very solid reason why using the "blind attack sensing" ability to prove paranormal abilities wouldn't work. And as long as the judges stick to logic and science, bias doesn't matter. If you can scientifically explain whatever someone claims to be paranormal, then it obviously isn't.

True that. This, combined with Burden of Proof, and the possible ramifications, is why so many people want someone to prove the opposite positive statement.

That's great then. If no one claims to be capable of any magic that in any way resembles anything that goes on in Shadowrun, then things are settled. Nothing that goes on with the SR magic system can be compared to alleged RL magic, so whether the alleged RL magic causes Drain or not does not matter when considering SR magic. Much like John Campbell and Cray74 already stated.

Is this based on something else than krishcane's blind-attack thingy? If there's some actual reason to discredit the person, you really should share (linkage is always good -- doesn't take much space from other discussion).

In any case, if you don't believe Mr Randi is up to any good, just go to any old university. Any decent university will certainly take you up for proof of paranormal powers or events. I'm sure there are university professors in the US with an open mind and a couple of hours of spare time to check the proof.

The thing is, science works. Scientific proof, when done correctly, is absolute, and will withstand the most vigorous assault. It's a bit difficult to discredit science with something that cannot withstand any manner of assault.

Has nothing to do with magic -- neither RL magic nor SR magic. Acupuncture, herbal medicine, massages, exercise, etc, all have more or less obvious physical effects which can be recorded and scientifically examined. None of it reproduces effects in any way similar to SR magic -- you might want to add some figures to the Expanded Doctoring Tables in M&M instead.

Yet there are those who will try to discredit the supposedly sound "scientific thoery." Scientists do it to each other all the time.

Bottom line. There's always a skeptic who won't believe what he doesn't want to believe. Well, that and Wizard's First Rule.

The thing is, it's not about belief. Real proof isn't arguable. If you can make an otherwise inoperable car run, then do it in front of him. If he doesn't "believe" what he saw with his own eyes, address his concerns and do it again! If it's real, there's no amount of hassle he can give you that cannot be overcome, and the million dollar prize at the end of the rainbow is worth it.


I only wish I could get a million dollars for my personal abilities! I can prove that I can juggle, I can prove that I can save the princess in Super Mario Brothers, I can prove that I can solve a Rubiks Cube, I can prove the Pythagorean Theorem, I can prove that my penis is seven inches long, etc. etc. I can do them pretty easily, and if someone thinks I'm using trickery and is willing to give me a million bucks to go through some hassle, then I'm sold! I'll juggle out in the desert where there can be no wires while wearing a special grounding tin foil suit if necessary.

OK. Let's end that discussion right there, then.

"Oh don't get me started on gravity!"
"You don't believe in gravity?!"
"It's just that lately I've felt that I'm not being pulled down as much as I am being pushed."

This is why there's a clear distinction between theory and fact. Not to be mixed with each other.

The distinction between theory and fact is often missed. Usually it's not just mixed... it's shaken, not stirred.

That, then, is proof of extremely poor scientific practice.

I agree.

This is a catch-all excuse I hear from everyone who tells me that they can't show me their magic powers. Whatever my beliefs, I do have eyeballs. I can't possibly argue with a floating penny or a car running without a necessary part.


I'm gonna follow everyone else and leave this alone for a while.

This is exactly what happened in our conversation. He said, "Obviously, you hear him coming." I said, "No, we wear earplugs and blast the stereo in the room." "Then you felt him in the floor movement." "I doubt it, because if he's not trying to smack me in the head, I can't detect him. Besides, it's a solid, non-creaking, hardwood floor." "Then you had pre-arranged timing." "No, we're very careful to make it random, and I'm more than happy to have him attack me on your signal." "Then you picked up some other subconscious, very subtle sense cue. That's highly honed senses, but not magic. Perhaps you felt the air shifting behind you."

...it went on and on. As Fahr alluded to earlier, the issue is the distinction between the mechanism (which must be grounded in physical reality, because otherwise it doesn't exist!) and the method that a person uses to do it. Sure, maybe I am feeling the magnetic field of his heart in my nervous system, feeling micro-changes in air pressure, or tapping into a subconscious electromagnetic brainwave rhythm that all human beings follow. That's fine -- my point with Mr. Randi was that human beings have vast untapped potential and powers beyond what they normally acknowledge. His point was that all of human experience takes place in physical reality. Actually, we both agree with each other's primary points! What we disagree with is the implications -- I feel that people should pursue these powers and open themselves up to a totally new experience of life. He feels that people are suckers and being taken in by charlatans and should focus on only things they already understand, in order to avoid being taken for a ride.

We couldn't disprove each other's actual points, because both of them are obviously true. We equally couldn't disprove each other's opinions of what it means for the human race, because those are generalized opinions of what's good for everyone.

--K

Edit: Sorry, Pistons... that's actually my last non-SR comment. Promise.

Your friend went into trance state (be it hypnotic or otherwise). People can enter trance for any number of reasons, even from starting into another person's eyes. And it is possible to exit out of trance just as easy. There are some very good informaiton on hypnosis and trances out on the web if you are wanted to look into it further.

I have a friend that can do that without even having to handle anything or do anything to actively sense it. She can just meet the expectant mother and it’s sort of like the baby just tells her what gender it is, is how she explained it to me.

All this talk on what is magic and what is not got me to thinking about a saying by Arthur C. Clark, writer and investigator of paranormal phenomena "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

The same thing applies with magic as well. Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science. They both operates on the same methods (observation, hypothesis, experimentation, revision), even if the foundations are different.

In other words, as my Wicca 101 teacher explained, magic is simply science that science has not been explained yet. Tens of thousands of years ago, writing, mathematics, and fire were magic, a thousand years ago it was chemistry and physics, and just a few hundred years ago it was electricity and magnetism. Today we have people doing things with wave manipulation without having really any idea of what or how what they are doing works. The universe is a very intricate and complex thing. Nothing that happens in the universe can violate the laws of the universe. This is why no one will ever be able to prove something violates the physical laws of the universe. The effect may not be explainable by what science theorizes about the universe, but it still does not exist outside it.

...and Req's First Corollary: Any technology distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced.

An excellent idea. I'm always in favor of collecting actual data to support or disprove people's assertions.

Just remember, while you're doing this, make sure you write down every time a song pops into your head and you turn on the radio to a different song, or a person comes unbidden to your mind and you don't hear from them any more frequently than you usually do, and make sure to record every number combination you encounter, not just the ones that draw your attention by being "particular".

Anything can start looking excessively coincidental if you record the times it happens and ignore the times it doesn't.

With one exception (which I'll get to in a minute), none of those are external world-powers. Most of them are simple matters of exerting your will to cause your body to do things. While I suppose it could be argued that the human will is itself magical, which view I'm not going to touch because it looks to me to be a matter of unprovable (either way) faith, doing these things is, at any rate, not any more magical than sticking your hand out and picking something up. The human brain is an extremely complex organ, and it ultimately controls pretty much everything your body does, so it's hardly surprising that it affects the body's internal operation.

The one possible exception is alleviating pain in others. I'd tend to chalk that up to you using the mystical powers of social interaction to influence them to use their own internal abilities, though.

It's also worth noting that I can and have done all of those things myself - with the exception of alleviating pain in others, which I've not attempted except via gross physical means (I'm told I give a wicked massage) - and don't attribute any of them to magical effects. It's a matter of knowing how to use your body efficiently (see my last post about Pathwalker's claim), of ignoring things that are happening only in your mind anyway (pain and hunger), of picking up on subtle cues your perfectly mundane senses are feeding you (blind sensing), and so on.

I'm very good at blind sensing, incidentally... back in the day when I used to play with boffer swords, I was a holy terror in melee combat, regularly took on five-to-one odds without difficulty, because I was not only fast and agile, but could sense what people behind me were doing and dodge blows that I never saw coming. But that's not magical... it's a matter of peripheral vision, of hearing, of more subtle cues like air movement. The proof of that is that as good as I am at it normally, I can't do it at all with my armor on. My helm blocks my peripheral vision (and entirely too much of my regular vision.. I really need a better one), interferes with my hearing (especially to the rear), and fifty pounds of mail and steel plate and a half-inch of padded gambeson don't allow sensing of air movements. I get most of it back if I just take my helm off. Unfortunately, that's not really an option in combat... I like my skull uncracked.

That's one of the harder ones to quantify, though. In Shadowrun terms, it's like trying to tell the difference between your usual Combat Pool dice, and the dice gained by use of a Combat Sense spell. We can do it in Shadowrun because we can look at the character's stats and count up how many dice he should have and watch to see how many he's actually using. In real life, we don't have access to our stats. For myself, I tend to think it's just the couple of dice that my Int contributes to my Combat Pool, plus the effects of having a totally silly number of dice (again, a simple high Int) to throw at "noticing someone behind me" Perception tests.

Probability math can determine exactly how unlikely any given fluke of chance is. The point at which that unlikeliness turns a coincidence into a systematic phenomenon is a matter of personal opinion, but if you can run the odds up high enough, it should convince most people that something unexplained is going on. Whether your explanation of it as "magic" is valid is another question.

Again, consider my Shadowrun sorcerer. He's provably capable of levitating, of throwing lightning bolts, and a number of other readily observable phenomena. He also believes that Odin and his brothers created the universe from the corpse of the giant Ymir, and that his powers derive from the (mental... physical runes are a crutch for crippled sorcerers) manipulation of rune symbols, the secret of which was discovered by Odin as he hung from the World Tree. Does the indisputable fact that he does possess these abilities indicate that he's right about where they come from?

Uh...no. Sorry, never felt the need to empty a mag into a friend.

New enemies, maybe -- but never old friends.

To start the fireball rolling -- anyone want to discuss the parallels between Jesus on a Cross and Odin hanging on a tree?

-Siege

No.

I just realized that I do this in the sack all the time. All this time I thought I was just good in bed, but apparently I've got magic powers! Awesome!

Inquisitions get kind of risky when the Inquisitors' intended victims can throw lightning bolts...

I actually tend to run Humanis as being not just anti-meta, but anti-magic in general. It's all Satan's work to them, and therefore evil that must be destroyed. They see the acceptance of magic by the Catholic Church and other religious organizations as a sign of Satanic corruption of those organizations. This means, obviously, that there are very few Awakened Humanis members in my world, and the few that do exist typically characterize their powers as miracles from God rather than magical abilities that they themselves possess. I don't think any of this is actually canon, but that's never worried me before...

About one in a hundred people have some degree of magical talent. That's really not all that rare, if you consider the number of people you casually encounter every day. How noticable the handful of mages that your average wageslave runs across are going to be depends largely on how much you think they use their magic, and how flashy the magic they use is. And most of the spells that're actually useful day-to-day are fairly obvious.

I know if I were Awakened, I'd build myself a sustaining focus and keep a Force 2 Magic Fingers sustained at all times, just 'cause it'd be so damn handy. People'd see me using it in fast food joints to grab napkins from across the room and get refills on my drink because I was too lazy to get up, stuff like that.

So I figure that there probably aren't very many people in SR who haven't ever encountered magic. It's probably not a daily occurance for most of them, but most will most likely have at least seen it a few times. There are probably people who deny that it exists at all (like psionicists), but they're probably seen as mostly harmless tinfoil hat nutballs.

And if you want to count the less blatant signs, the stuff that's magical but doesn't slap you in the face and go, "Hey! This is magic!", basically everyone will have met metahumans. Most people are probably related to some. Scientific explanations might hold up for elves and dwarves, and even born orks and trolls, but orks goblinizing is iffy, and the rapid mass change goblinizing trolls go through is pretty much biologically impossible.

There is no relationship between marathon runners and people who have magical skillz.

Technically, you would know more than one guy.

Contrary to popular belief, "schizophrenia" is not synonymous with "multiple personality disorder".

While this is certainly true, as you say, the common (mis)conception is that they are virtually identical.

Besides, it made for a good smart-assed comment.