Perhaps it is my coloured perception of SR4 but here is how I see things being different. In sr1-3 characters grafted huge chunks of metal and technology onto their body in order to advance. sr4 seems to have characters integrate technologies within their bodies to get to the next level (Nanies, gene splicing). one is external one is internal. It started with 3rd edition, when they allowed ghouls, and vampires as playable characters, with the changes to regen. The other thing with later versions of sr is that magic has be cranked up to 11, and has displaced technology for augmentation, it started with Otaku, then excellerated with technomancers and mages who get more powerful through possession. All this points to a going beyond humanity that sr 1-2 never touched. That is how it is more transhuman than cyberpunk. It will be even more so once sr4 embraces cyberbrains, cyborgs and full digitization to the matrix.

It's not cyberpunk because the "cultural fermentation" has left for warring pantheons (dragons and new megacorps). I haven't heard of acid rain, burnt out cars, smog and neon for a dog's age. The feel of megacorporations has even changed.


It's transhuman in definition, but not the SF genre that has grown in prominence.



Some of it is technology. Much of it is magic and contageon based. I know I hear more about ghoul and zombie based shadowrun games than I do anarchistic or corporate espionage. Maybe the old themes are boring, and the new ones fit more of the video game generation, it just seems to be a flavour that lost it's pink mohawk.


I don't think that sr4 is any less of a game, I think that it just has a completely different flavour from sr 1,2, and start of 3. It seems to deny the fact that it has changed in an attempt to be all things to all people. Yes we can shoehorn punk into sr4, but out of the box, it has become something else.


I don't think anyone is saying they are anti-noir or anti-cyber punk. but they just have thinned those elements so much that you can't really say that they are.


I miss the NAN influence. Also the threat of Japanese takeover and influence are gone. They seem, more arms length. I miss the old lingo. Somehow it made shadowrun a little more crunchy. Just switching to everyday swearing made shadowrun more bland.


None of these elements get any real face time from what I have read. They don't seem to get any mention in adventures.


VR2 was a new set of mechanics and changed from corebook, it was mirrored in 3e. 1e and 2e corebook were similar. I think the perception was that it was going to be hard, and most people skipped it because there wasn't the incredible walkthroughs to teach people like there was in 3e. 4e would suffer from the same issues, but there is more of a community and hand holding. Before you simply bought the book and tried learning it with your group. (the internet wasn't as developed as it is now)

Did anyone else think that the major GitS was a mary sue? Like a Talon squared. I haven't read, but watched every release. Sometimes it was balanced and cool, the other times, there were epic characters that would basically do anything they wanted to. Too often I had to suspend all belief because the plot was so over the top rediculous. Hacking everyone's commlink while you are running from cops? Come on. Not only that, but not everyone would have a commlink, yet somehow they were all hacked too. AR is a cool concept and will continue to develop. As will wearable computers. The problem lies with people exploiting things, so much that they become unweildly.


Have to give props to this point. It's just well put.

The rest of your post I'll agree with your points, in that I concede that there have been changes made to what elements receive the most page time. Heck, I miss NAN stuff too =/

But the quoted part just happened to hit a major peeve of mine - though I know it's common, but mary sue has to be the worst, most misused phase in the English language now. The Major is no where even close. As for the rest, well, there are explanations; but I would have to re-watch the series before I felt on solid ground arguing about them though^^

Hacking in 4th is SO much faster than it was before... At our table, we have successfully integrated the Matrix with Physical actions seemlessly... we have no issues and the Flowe of the game is smooth... after all, Hacking is no longer done at the spped of thought, removed from the actions of the physical... they are all equal now... Free, Simple and Complex...

I guess we manage it "Correctly" as you pointed out so eloquently...

I have to say, that was my biggest peeve with the older editions of Shadowrun (and CP2020 for that matter): The non-hackers/deckers/whatever-they-call-themselves basically took a nap while the internet/matrix guru did his thing and it was generally the opposite the rest of the time. This is NOT a good thing since a bored player is a player more likely to pull shenanigans when they finally get to do something.

In any case: My favorite version is SR4. The above reason was part of it, but it was also because I have a hard time finding players who enjoy the 80s Cyberpunk aesthetic. It is a LOT easier to get people into the newer "Modern" cyberpunk then the 80s cyberpunk.

What's missing? The classic deckers/riggers that were 'borrowed' from (somewhat) popular fiction. I don't get the Neuromancer or Hardwired vibe from S4. Those were part of the whole world and, without them, the world isn't the same.

Yes.. Johnny Neumonic makes no sense in SR4.. and that makes me sad

If it makes you feel better, Johnny Mnemonic barely made sense in 1e/2e.

The short story or the movie?

Movie didn't make sense in any edition of anything

On-topic: Maybe one of the aspects of cyberpunk is how limited the access to the matrix is - you need a specialist for that. The Net is a big, scary place. "Transhumanist", everyone everywhere is connected, you might need a specialist for really dicey stuff but in general everyone is pretty well comfortable with being online all of the time.

Whoah! </keanu>

How many Nodes do your systems have, typically? I ask because at leased according to the SR4A book, every device is a node which doesn't seam any less than ye old 1e map other than its one paragraph rather than this huge map thing.

Heh, I refuse to change the lingo and the unique slang from previous versions of Shadowrun. If there is one thing that I have to hate on 4th edition for is trying to change the lingo. For me, it is still chummer, drek, fraggin and all of those other wonderful made up words.

Now that is what seemed to change SR for me. But then again, I can change what I want in my own campaign so you know, I just changed it back and Wolla! Lingo change never even happened.

Personally, I still encounter the Pizza Problem unless I do exactly what I did before. Decking in 4.5 is just as slow and cumbersome as any previous edition, in my book. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I have a sneaking suspicion I'm actually doing it right, and that's the problem.

The Major and some of the antagonists are indeed badass, but they're not Mary Sues at all. This is a series about a special unit that would make the Tir Ghosts look like pansies, going against opponents even they have difficulty facing (basically, large conspiracies). A real "Mary Sue" is very different from this. You know Zap Brannigan from Futurama? If his own opinion of himself was true, he'd be a Mary Sue. Anything less than that is not.

In SAC, hacking everyone's commlink like that is indeed almost impossible. That someone was able to do it at all is considered scary by just about everyone in the setting - in other words, a major plot hook. As for "not everyone would have commlinks", that's a much rarer occurrence in the GitS setting than in Shadowrun. Remember, one of the main setting points of Ghost in the Shell is that everyone has a cyberbrain (an implanted commlink). "Unmodified human" in GitS means "someone who has no implants other than a cyberbrain". They did find a single bum who didn't have one and was at the scene, IIRC, and that was one of the major leads in the case.

One. "Every device is a node" means you should usually only need to hack one node to do something useful, IMHO. Need to unlock a door? Hack the lock. Need to mess around with a camera right now? Hack that camera. That would be the main difference between the SR1/2 approach and SR4, I think. Early run sites would have a single mainframe with a sprawling system map mostly full of components that were meant only as obstacles, set up in such a way that a decker would have to crawl through most of them in order to complete the mission.

SR4 run sites seem to me like they should usually be designed with lots of nodes spread around, each one of them doing something useful and requiring comparatively little game time to hack. Having no more speed bump SPUs or red herring data stores to chase should make things a little quicker for the hacker and the rest of the party.

Pizza Problem here to. I get that hacking can go on at the same time as physical actions, but at my table, the hacker rarely ever hacks during party combat. He hacks when the rest of the party is sitting in their apartment, or while the rest of the party is at a bar or while they are driving to a meet.

Its hacking outside of combat that is the problem...if you follow the rules. Its a time sink. In combat, hacking is at least spaced between the rest of the players's actions and doesn't seem so boring.

Okay, so lets look at "hack the lock" or "hack that camera".

First you have to find the node. If its active or passive, you need no rolls, as its evident. If its hidden, you have an Extended Test to complete, which could easily be 3-5 sets of rolls from the hacker.

Okay, so you find the node, not you need to hack in on the fly. Now we have an Opposed Extended Test. Maybe you get it in one roll, but likely you'll need 2 or 3 rolls. Double that, as the GM is rolling against you to determine if an Alert was triggered.

Okay, so now you are in and there is no alert (best case scenario). The GM may roll an analyze for the node, may have some scripts to follow, there may be some IC or a spider... but let's say there is none of that, its just the hacker and the node. The hacker may need to spend some actions dumping some programs only used for hacking on the fly and load other ones. Maybe he needs a Matrix Perception to get some node states or identify the way to unlock the door or drop the camera feed. Assuming the hacker only has to perform an on/off, then there is an Edit roll to flip that switch (again, a best case scenario).

Okay, so the door is unlocked or the camera is off. Does the hacker want to keep the node in his subscription list? Probably not. Does he want to clean up the Access Log. Maybe, or yes if the GM has burnt him on that. So we have another Extended Test and a few more rolls.

So, a "simple" hack, with no opponents, in a simple node to basically just flip a swtich is what, a half dozen to a dozen different rolls by the player and about half that for the GM? Throw a single logical defensive measure, and IC or an extra Analyze by the node and you probably double or triple the amount of rolls needed.

I agree, a single node is a simple concept. And all of the matrix rules seem to be fairly straighforward and simple when individually inspected. But the "system in action" is a time sink. A boring time sink. And one that excludes the rest of the party most of the time.

But, I still like SR4 the most...just saying:)

I get what your saying but you could just hack the device in SR1/2 as well, you never had to go through the SAN, CPU, SPU, etc if all you wanted to do was open the door in front of you. The old trick was to hop on some guys terminal then shut all the cameras down. The only "crawl" was because the Decker would rather sit safe at home rather than go in with the team. If you have to pull some data off a server (assuming its hooked up to the matrix) would you rather hack it from home or have to go into the building and defeat cameras and locks. I will say the maps are intimidating and the SPU was just stupid because it was just there to screw the decker.

[edit] I'm not saying SR1/2 was better just that SR4 isnt an significant improvement IMHO, at leased where hacking is concerned. Our SR1/2 "fix" was used to only have the CPU and lower the time needed for a passive alert and have all combat rounds be the same length of time (yes I'll admit 4e has an advantage there to)

We need improved "legwork" matrix rules.
So, if you need a couple of lame fake id's, and licenses
Pulling up information on someone etc.

If you feel the hacker is asking for information that should be protected.. then do one of two things.
1) setup a seperate session where you and the hacker can do solo-hacking
2) make it a legwork run. The team has to get the hacker into the local office of Blah so he can be close enough to do some hacking

There's nothing wrong with mini-runs to gather information, setup details, etc.

Use the spoofing lifestyle rules for ideas on how to shortcut legwork.
If the hacker says:
GM, I want to setup a fake reservation and pickup a car remotely.
You could:
a) do a full 40 minute run against the AVIS system, etc, etc
b) You could have him make a logic+exploit perhaps. Against a Threshhold of the security rating of the place.

You let other people do legwork rolls by rolling their contact dice. This is the same.

I admit I use shortcuts similar to what you're talking about. In fact, I had a situation in my game where the hacker wanted to hack the system of a landscaping company (that had the contract for the upscale and patrolled neighborhood of their mark) so that he could dispatch a truck but not assign any employees to it. He then proposed to hack the designated truck from just outside the company's motor pool to get it to drive itself out to where the team was waiting.

If this scenario were played out strictly according to the rules the hacker would be making a lot of rolls to penetrate, make changes, and cover his tracks. However, this is a random landscaping company we're talking about. They don't budget for high-threat IC or a Spider on duty at all times and they certainly don't man their motor pool gate with an actual live person. So it's going to be a long series of rolls in which the hacker is 95% likely to succeed. In this case I boiled it all down to a couple of "representative" Tests of the relevant skills and programs. He succeeded and we moved on with the actual operation to get into the target's house without raising alarms.

On a different occasion the hacker was attempting to break into the system of Wuxing's Seattle headquarters to add in a couple of fake employees to the security authorization list. For this encounter we played the whole thing out according to the rules. That ended up taking a good fifteen minutes, but the rest of the players were riveted as the hacker triggered an alert and then played cat and mouse with the Spider and IC to get his changes made, cover his tracks, and get out before the Spider found him. With mad skillz and some luck, he succeeded. The encounter was a vital part of the overall shadowrun and no one begrudged the time spent on it.

I guess what I'm saying is that GMs need to use their judgment about when to use the whole rule set and when to use a quick resolution mechanic of some kind. This stratagem also applied in previous editions of SR, but for some reason creating systems and running a decker through them always seemed like more of a chore than in 4th edition. It's been long enough since I ran 3rd (or earlier) edition that I frankly can't say what it was precisely that had me using NPC deckers all the time.

If I could hazard a guess it would be layout and indexing. FASA had terrible indexes and many rules had you bouncing around to figure out what your supposed to do. Take fighting critters in 2e, where your bouncing from critters to combat to magic back to combat etc with little to no index help. 3e wasnt AS bad but it wasnt good either.

As an aside, Aaron Pavao's cheat sheets helped us immensely in getting our sea legs for 4th edition.

This is the case when the party splits up to do legwork or go shopping as well. Some characters will take an hour smoozing up their contacts for gear or information. Funny that people don't complain much about that.



This is true for all additions. One thing that has been really looked over is the amount of free information that is out there that is waiting to be spidered and cross referenced. There are some sites out there today that will tell you each job someone has had, what conferences they spoke at, and sites where they post. And that isn't even close to what the government stores on people. They have images files by gig on people which can be processed to make a full 360 of someone, what friends they have on different networking sites, all their employment history and psychological profiles.

I was thinking about getting an eye camera for my sammie so that he can take a picture of someone, do and image scan and do background checks on Johnsons, targets, etc. How many people have active agents that they house in a server farm to mine data for runs? These are total money and times sinks that would be incredible assets to runners, but don't have any mechanics that I can find. Would be nice to know that Johnson 1 says he's from Ares but is really from Renraku, is trying to make a play for a director position his boss currently holds, has been photographed in public with 3 different mistresses, his wife is a Dr that is being sued. Etc etc etc. There are webs of information out there and connect by thin threads.



I need to clear some of the commitments to shadowrun projects off my plate so that I can commit to more projects like this as well. Just want to do it for previous editions to breath some life back into them.

I would if it happened at a table I was at! If the other players weren't involved, if we didn't keep the scenes short and to the point? There would be pointed OOC discussions.

Further contributing to the trouble in the past is that in the Matrix non-deckers were far worse than non-contributors, they were huge mainframe-sized, fragile, boat anchors if you brought them along. This contrasts to meets in the meat world it was easier to have roles for the other characters ('get away' in the car), muscle ready to bust in if things go sideways, signal ops to snoop and run security, deckers to run info searches (clearer single-roll friendly in SR4) realtime to feed the face info to work with.

The non-contribution problem with the Matrix hasn't entirely gone in SR4 but the barrier to contribution has lowered.

I don't know, as I do not sit at your table, but we have been running integrated games from the start... it DID take a bit of time for everyone to learn the rules a bit, but once that happened, it was off to the races...

In a similar vein, On ocassion, we run Resonance Quests (or Astral Quests for the Mages) and everyone participates on those, so every once in a while, we have a single session for Quest purposes... and it keeps every one involved, so no pizza time...

Whenever I've been forced to play by the rules (Missions games, mostly) I've run into the Pizza Problem. The decker does his thing while everyone else goes out for pizza. I've found that decking in the middle of a firefight is basically pointless, for the reasons stated above-- too many rolls to achieve too little. I *do* like running Astral Quests for otaku, but that depends on a player comprehnding the bad SR4.5 rules on otaku-- one of the few places they went wrong, IMO.

I suspect that you have as many "house rules" as I do, whatever you choose to call them. Call it "bending the rules", "interpretations", or whatever you prefer. It amounts to the same thing.

... or most of the prewritten adventures where if you played by the rule the hacker had their own chapters! LOL

I would be willing to bet that when you are "Forced" to follow the rules for Hacking (Your words) that some component of that is lacking somewhere, likely either your understanding or the GM's understanding of the ruleset. I do not agree that hacking during a firefight is pointless... we have done it many, many times since SR4 arrived. As I said earlier, once everyone is on the same page, then it proceeds just as fast as a running gunfight in the physical... It did take a while for us to arrive at the fluidity that I talk about, and even now, when we have a new person playing a Hacker/Technomancer we take the time to make sure they are up to speed...

The biggest complaint I have heard from people playing SR4 about the Hacking system is that it is not realistic. If you can ignore the realism comparison (It is NOT realistic), and play the game the way it is written, many of the roadblocks encountered in understanding the rules just fade away (at least in my experience).

Though, it sounds like we both enjoy our games, so there is really nothing else to say about that, I would guess. I know a lot of individuals who alter the rules to satisfy their tables... each his own, as long as it is fun for everyone...

I too am in the camp of finding the hacking rules slow and confusing, not at all easy to follow during a firefight.

Tymeaus, would you be able to give examples or "flowcharts" of how your group has arrived at it's use of the hacking rules? It sounds like ya'll are really able to have fun with them. I'd appreciate any advice you and your group have on the subject. Like, when you say everyone is on the same page, what page is that exactly? SR4a or SR4 ?

No, I suspect the problem is that we understand it perfectly.

As Deek pointed out, hacking the opposing guy's smartgun in combat takes six to eight rolls, minimum. That's assuming virtually no security, such as IC on the node, or tricks such as slaving. That could double or triple easily if the enemy is competent and your rolls are mediocre. Six to eight rolls is six to eight actions in combat. At absolute best, you're going into a second combat round just to turn off his gun for a second. By that point, your samurai will have shot him repeatedly.

So, combat hacking the other guy's equipment is not a viable tactic. It takes too many actions to pull off properly.

Currently we use SR4A RUles with Unwired Support.

Hacking Rolls are as the Book... Skill + Program + Any modifiers (This is usually COntested, as most Hacking type rolls are)
We do not use Logic in our Calculations (Though I would like to use the Optional Rule for Hits capped at Logic, not everyone agrees)

Systems are rated from 1 to 6+, as normal, with Harder systems at the 6+ Range (Obviously)
Physical Intrusion is the Norm for our group, as we are experienced enough to easily bypass more insignificant Systems (Anything 3-4 or below)

Systems are generally layered (And are not always on the Matrix), and there are generally multiple points of access if using the Phsyical Intrusion method (Terminals, Security Office, Executive Office, etc.)... On systems that ARE connected to the Matrix, there are usually a few (At least one, but often two or three) Matrix Chokepoints into the systems (for Offsite Security HAckers, or remote operations personnel). Once in (Regardless of method), subversion of the System commences. My Character (A Cyberlogician Character) uses Worms, Agents, Trojans and even Virii to subvert the system, depending upon my mission parameters. First step is to neautralize Security Systems and control the Doors and locks. This may take some time, or not, depending upon Node opposition/composition and luck of the dice (And how many layers deep it is located). If I am discovered in any Given Node, I drop a Baitworm and attempt to evade. If evasion does not work, I engage the Spider/IC and hope to survive.

Our Technomancer is often very useful here, as he can Skinlink the door/device locally and just override, though it does not always work out that way. He has a hard time with Locating WIreless Nodes and with Databombs... Oh well, what do you do.

Typical System tasks are as follows (Assuming that Social Engineering/Thuggery has been unsuccessful; This is our FIrst option gnerally)...

Detect Node
Matrix Perception (Analyse the Node)
Decrypt (If Encrypted... Usually is)
Defuse (If there is a DataBomb, Data Bombs are cheap after all)
Gain Access with Appropriate Access Rights (Actual On-the-fly Hack)
Matrix Perception to analyze the Node
Browse Node Architecture
Move deeper into the System if Required, performing the above tasks as required and in that order, until you reach the target node.

If opposition is in the node, attempt to stealth past.
If Alarm goes Active, Attempt to disable Alarm and continue Mission; or combat the Node Response Team (IC/Spiders) It is not always beneficial to log out and try again, especially in the middle of a run.

I am sure that I have forgotten a step or two in there somewhere, dependant upon what actually happens in the various nodes, but that is a general idea... Many of these actions take a turn or so to successfully complete (Some a Phase or two, sometimes longer; Dice are capricious sometimes)... If I was able to tap early and get a Slow Hack intot he SYstem, then I will have left access pints and legitimate Access ID's in the system, so that I did not have to hackl on Fl;y, and have some basic access that is "Legitimate." Systems vary on how well this works, of course.

So, in our group at least, we have a Crime Boss (Triad) who has a lot of clout and 2 passes Physical, a Technomancer who has 3 passes (Meat or Hot), a Street Samurai with 3 passes, a Amge with 3-4 Passes, and another Melee/Throwing Street Sam with 3 Passes. My Cyberlogician has 5 passes. Hacking goes pretty quickly, as I generally know what I am roilling at any given time, and have my dice ready and waiting for my pass to occur. The GM sometimes assigns an assistant to help manage the Physical Attacks (or Spirit Summonings, etc.), while he concentrates on the Technomancer/Hackers, and the action never lags (Since the target number for Tests are always the same, we can even roll dice and just wait to be informed of our threshold for success; compare and go). Everyone knows what they are going to do when it is their turn, and the table flows pretty well. The only time that this starts to break down is when someone goes off topic in themiddle of a fight (Happens ocassionally) and says soemthing out of character. We still work on that. Hard to totally suppress. With everyone knowing their actions, and the GM managing the NPC actions, Resolution (Physical/Astral/MAtrix) is fast paced and exciting.

I know that this probably did not help very much, but I am away from my books currently, so I have a hard time going into detail. It did take a while for everyone to be synchronized, but once it got there, things just kind of fell in to place as far as the timing goes. We have not had to stop for Pizza (While the Hackers do their thing) for years now...

Hopefully this makes a little sense...

That's not bad, but it still shows the same problem. It takes a lot of combat actions to get into a node, enough so that it's frequently easier to shoot the enemy instead.

It also should be noted that the sheer number of rolls means that Murphy's Law has plenty of opportunities to bite you right in the keister. Your odds on any one given test are good to excellent, but it doesn't make it sting any less when things go against you. That's not really a problem if you've got a min-maxed build or know how to build a TM and can really mitigate things but for newer players it's a bit of a balancing act and they don't always seem to realize just how risky a "minor" hacking attempt can end up getting.

No offense to Tymeaus Jalynsfein, but GOOD LORD THAT SEAMS LIKE ALOT OF ROLLING! I mean I know its by the book but I want my combat to be over in less than 1/2 hour of real time if you don't know what your doing. Typically if you know what your doing and the entire combat takes more than 15 min of real time I'm bored.

Thanks for the info Tymeaus. This is good stuff!

BUT...

I notice a few things about the way you describe the process and how your group works. These are just my thoughts, hope it doesn't come off as criticism.

1. As everyone said, that's still a heck of a lot of rolling. No matter how you slice it. Way more complicated than most everything else in the game. Hacking a door takes 6+ rolls with different mechanics possible for each roll.

2. You've basically described the ideal game group. It's great that your group is so cohesive and knows exactly what they are doing at every single action and never is indecisive or not sure what test to roll for. Not everyone is so lucky to have such a group as yours, and I think if any group deviates even slightly from the cohesiveness you described, the huge glaring problems with time management will appear.

3. "The GM sometimes assigns an assistant to help manage the Physical Attacks (or Spirit Summonings, etc.), while he concentrates on the Technomancer/Hackers, and the action never lags"
- this sounds like your group is admitting that without TWO Gms, things won't go smoothly. One dedicated GM for the hacking stuff. To me that says hacking is too complicated.

I realize that alot of these problems are present in every version of Shadowrun. But these massive changes in the Hacking (Decking) rules didn't help things or streamline things, they just moved the pieces of the puzzle around. And for some of us, in the moving of pieces, they also flipped the pieces so they didn't have the interesting pattern showing on them anymore.

It boils down to not having to have an encyclopedic, eidetic memory for playing the game.

Want to shoot a gun? Figure out some simple modifiers, roll dice once for shooting with your weapon skill
Want to cast a spell? Figure out some simple modifiers, roll dice once to cast with your spellcasting skill
Want to intimidate someone? Want to summon a spirit? Want to climb a wall? Want to jury-rig a door lock?
etc
etc

You know what's funny? Some of the first complaints I remember hearing about the hacking rules was that they made hackers too powerful because they could hack into enemies' guns and implants right in the middle of combat. This was quickly debunked with the arguments shown here: hacking in combat is possible, but a lot slower than just shooting the other guy. And now this is apparently a negative point?

I remember hearing about being able to hack someone's gun, or cyberarm, and being excited about the possibilities. I did hear the "too powerful" argument, but that was always countered with the classic "just shooting / punching / magicking" them is just as effective.

(this is more hyperbole, right? Right? Dang! )

It may be my faulty memory more than hyperbole this time... It's been a while since I've seen this, as I tend to stay away from these discussions for long periods of time.

I remember hearing about being able to hack someone's gun, or cyberarm, and being excited about the possibilities.
Hacking a Cyberarm or Cybereyes is more hyperbole 'cause almost everybody switches of WiFi functionality in 'ware.
Hacking a Smartlink might be possible or IFF (happened Once to us ) but I'd guess its rather seldom

JahtaHey
Medicineman

Looking down to Grinder
Yes I do ,but answering you would distract this Thread even further

Do you know that there is a "QuotePost"-button?

I think that the debunking factor ended up being duration.

I seem to remember the fear that a hacker could hack your cyberarm and start punching yourself in the face. Or hack a gun and turn off smartlink or eject the clip or screw with the sights.

After much discussion, it boiled down to, yes, this could all be done, but it wasn't permanent. MAYBE you punch yourself once in the face, but on your next action, you turn off wireless as an action and go about your business. Or, smartlink gets turned off, so you spend an action turning it on or just say screw it and shoot without the bonus. Or you use a couple actions to load another clip and turn off your wireless.

So, what seemed to be too powerful at first, turned into more of a novelty act and if the point was just to kill the enemy, shooting them in the face was just quicker...

Which is why the hacker in our group invested the proceeds of his first few runs into some Muscle Toner, a Synaptic Booster and a nifty laser pistol he picked up in Lagos. His hacking mostly takes place just prior to combat when he tries to find and hack a commlink in the opposing force to tap into their comm traffic. During combat he keeps good cover and snipes with the laser pistol and maybe directs a drone or two. As you said, hacking in combat has less 'effect per action' than just shooting them in the face.

Interestingly enough, at our table, Hacks take less than 15 minutes of real time, about the same time as the physical combat... Some of the steps can be eliminated, especially if your GM does not use a lot of security, thoguh I tend to perform the steps just in case (with 5 passes, I get a lot of actions)... our Overconfident TM decided to ignore the step for detecting Data Bombs once, and he about died from its activation when he triggered it...

Tables will be different in their structure of the nodes that Hackers attack... The above protocol developed from long experience with our GM.

Anyways

It IS a lot of rolls, definitely... no argument... Though the Technomancer can crack a door in less actions than I generally can, usually...



Agreed... Our group has been gaming together for a long trime, and so we generally know how each of us will act/reeact to situations. This defintiely helps to ease the flow of the game...



Not so much as 2 GM's actually, just administrative actions (Spirits, Sprites, etc) being handled by competent players while GM handles the rest of the story. keeps everyone in teh scene so to speak, rather tha stopping to summon. While the Mages/Technomancer summons/Threads, others are doing their thing... But I can agree that without that, it would slow the game a bit... So point taken...



Understood...



Something I am often accused of, actually.

Anyways, Glad that I could help clear some thigns up, even if it really did not solve your issues.

Thanks for your replies Tymaeus. I guess I've belabored my point enough, glad to hear people enjoy the rules and are having fun with them.

<insert-cheers-beer-glass-smiley-here>

Hey, My Pleasure...

I don't find the hacking rules difficult to understand so much as needlessly complicated. It's easy to simplify. Use the node\system model as written, make hacking, computers, electronic warfare etc (hacker skillsets) + program\attribute the only roll needed to accomplish tasks under each skill (Hacking for that cyberarm or door, Computers for file editing etc) and leave it at that.
It will focus more on what the hacker accomplishes as opposed to how he accomplishes it. The "what" (ow!, my own turret is shooting at me!) is what makes hackers fun anyway, and the how (wheeee, I accessed so and so system then so and so system in order to fool so and so system so I could do *insert cool thing*) is mostly just fun for computer geeks

I want D&D simplicity. Find Trap/Remove Trap/Open lock. If you want to gamble about perhaps setting off an alarm or trap just go to open lock.

For SR4. Find ICE, disable ICE, hack comlink.

That is a little TOO bland for my tastes though...

If I want D&D simplicity I'll lobotomize myself with a rusty spoon and play D&D.

Oh yes because upping the number of rolls raises your IQ a few points. If I want to hack a door, yes 3ish rolls is a good place to put it. More than that and you are adding rolls just to add rolls.

Yeah the "Oh the Decker does something" is an ongoing issue, mirroring the 'oh great, the rogue is doing their sneaking thing' which usually resulted in the mentioned pizza break or back in college (looong ago) go play a MUD or something. Nowadays its hop on the nearby game console or check facebook or watch some online porn, make out with the gm's girlfriend, whatever.

My groups have never come up with a good solution to the decker issue (or the related rigger issue, though now with drone riggers, its easier). We've tried a variation of 'ok the decker can play 'support character' during combat, explaining what he wants to help with and it gives a teamwork bonus to other PCs....the notable problem being you've now reduced the PC Decker to effectively an NPC with variable modifiers. Cause most Deckers weren't really able to help out in the actual fire-portion of combat.