....for inviting women and newbies to play.

So, my brother asked me to run an SR4 game. I agreed to do it if we could find some players. I have another group, but the time they meet doesn't work out for him.

I first want to say that my other group is great. Really good RPers, some of them are new to SR, but veterans of The Other Game. They all wrote detailed character descriptions and backgrounds, and then tailored their character to match it(I feel that this is the only correct way to build a shadowrunner for a real campaign). They needed some help optimizing, but that was no problem.


So this new group consists of:
my brother
my best friend
my brothers wife
my wife

Brothers' wife: She hasn't read any of the material. He talked to her a little bit about it, but she hasn't read it. She has zero understanding of the mechanics. They asked me to generate a character for her based on the criteria "She wants to be a kitty." I created a tiger-shifter physical adept for her. I wrote a little background for it. She played it, she got quite a bit more interested in the game as it went on. She even asked mechanics questions and setting questions over dinner afterward. I'm hoping she's interested enough to study the game a LOT more if she wants to continue playing. Otherwise I hope she'll quit playing.

Brother: He spent the time to read some of the material, He spent the time to generate his own character, but he didn't bother with a background, or even a NAME. He didn't bother with knowledge skills or contacts. He made an absurd mystic adept with Move-by-wire. It's actually not even a good character from a min-maxing perspective but I'm not sure he knows that. I'm almost assuredly going to kill this character in the next session.

my best friend: he created a deep and rich background for his character, a great character description, and built the character himself. Truly a good character that would fit well in almost any shadowrun campaign.

my wife: she read some of the material, actually seems genuinely interested. She was thinking of playing a Hacker of some kind, but got sort of bored of the idea. This is where things get really cheesy. Somehow the idea popped into her head to create a Free Spirit character that looks like a Luma from Super Mario Galaxy. The idea did make me LOL so I let her do it. I helped her build the character, but she did a lot of the legwork in researching powers and spells, etc.

TLDR: ridiculous newbie group consists of a Luma, a Tiger-shifter, a mystic-adept w/ MBW and no background, and a rather well thought out and complete physical adept.

That's actually very honestly the last part of a character for me, and possibly the hardest (I suck at naming stuff and I fear for my poor children should I have any).

Still, sounds like you've gotten the wives interested, and that's at least good, right? If just your own wife ends up sticking to it, you might be able to roll her into your main group, which seems like an overall win to me.

MA with MBW... it is somewhat doable, but requires a very particular approach.

Did he at least take amnesia? I mean he outght to at least get some points out of those missing areas. Either way rather than killing him you should still be able to work with him a bit. Find out if he wants any sort of character background and then if he wants to write it himself or have you make it, or retroactively swap some of his negative qualities for amnesia and then you get to write it yourself and surprise him with it.



Me too, I usually have stats and almost all the background done before I come up with a name.

Character names are tricky.. I'm very sensitive to names, and if I come up with a name I like a lot, that might end up thoroughly changing the character concept so that they suit each other.

I think he means the character was built so poorly that he's going to die. Not that it'll happen on purpose.

"What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name...."

But really, I know what you mean. I have a stock of names that I reuse that each has a particular personality and skillset attached to them, but that is because they were attached to a character for a long time, not because of the name itself.

Honestly, that sounds like a bad Shadowrunner joke...

"These 'runners walk into a bar, and..."

Two of the best players I ever introduced to the game are my wife and my ex-wife. One of the best teams I ever GMed was a group of teenagers, split male/female.

One of the worst teams I ever GMed consisted of seasoned SR players, all male... and my ex-wife. The guys were inept, stuck in one mode of thinking and full of their own self-importance. They were saved from a failed mission, and annihilation by a bored GM (me), by the newbie woman who took over and solved the problem forthwith, showing them in the process how magic and spirits really should be played. They then proceeded to chastise her for not being a 'team player' and threatened her character with death if she ever broke from 'procedure' again. She told them where they could stick it. They didn't have the balls to carry through on their threat, but it was alright, because she joined the teenage team and went on to have years of fun.

The only way any names I come up with will makes sense is, I hope to any god that will listen, that my children are reptiles (or at least, animals).

Then no one else will have to suffer trying to pronounce them correctly (example, though I blame my mother for this, our one dog was named Nahkohe--brownie to anyone who can determine the language and English translation without using google).

I think more of my characters have been named by the other players/the GM than I have named myself (speaking of which, I don't think I ever told my group why my last SR character was (nick)named "Slinky"...)

Because he falls down stairs?

Was it a Karelian?



Alone or in pairs?

I have to wonder if they're getting together right now, saying how much fun they had, except, well, they had a GM who expected them to learn 1000 pages of rules by just reading them. Maybe they're wondering how they can get together again, only without someone who clearly doesn't play well with women and new players.

My latest character doesn't have a name either. My experience is that names happen. Sure, I could call him Brock Knockwurst, but that's not a name. Names are things that happen. And sometimes backstories don't reveal themselves till later. (Well, he had a backstory, until I found out that the things it realted to couldn't be on the character sheet under Shadowrun Mission rules. So, new backstory still vague.)

And I don't know the rules. I know this. It used to bother me, but since then I've pretty much realized that no one here knows the rules, including some of the people who wrote the rules, and the FAQ, and apparently the some of the Missions modules.

As for how good the character is, it's hard to tell how good a character should be. Are they supposed to be as good as the sample characters or should they be walking tacnets with a maxed out dice pool on exploit?

In all seriousness, find a new GM and walk away. You don't want to play with them, you're complaining about them behind their backs, and you're planning to kill off one of their characters. I see no path for you to go forward with this that ends well.

I think you're taking this way too seriously.

Nahkohe: Cheyenne. I can't remember what it meant though. Deer? Bear? Not my tribe.

This, particularly on backstories -- and, hell, personalities.

Generally, while my characters start with names, I decide on a vague idea of personality and the basic skeleton of a backstory, and then RP from there and see how the holes get filled in. IMO, it's much better than planning out an incredibly detailed character at the beginning only to find that the character starts deviating in practice.

A good character will, to some extent, flesh out itself.

Well, he is the GM. And I got the impression that the player was going to kill off his own character, not that the GM was.

Very possible. If they're new to the setting (and especially if they aren't big RPG gamers in the first place) I don't expect people to know the rules. I figure they should have at least a basic idea of the setting (Seattle, near future, cyberpunk with mirror shades and magic. Dystopian but not actually that bad, corps run everything and Runners get paid to do illegal stuff for the corps or other parties. Go.), but other than that, expect to have to go through the rules with them.

It's kinda like teaching a class. You don't just give the students a book and expect them to read it all and be ready for a quiz next week. You give them a book and then go over important parts with them, giving examples and reinforcing the important parts and telling them which parts of the book they get to ignore.

Nice, broad sweeping statement. I don't entirely think it is true though.

I take a long time designing a name. Street names kind of happen, but the character's real name and NPC street names are often important. Telling names make it a lot easier. In the end, though, characters will often keep the name and then run off in a completely different direction from what you expected in regards to personality.

I knew it to be some Native American tongue, but I was not sure which one. Limiting it to a continent wouldn't be very helpful (in my opinion - it may have been though).

I would guess the name to mean "little bear," but that's based on my extremely limited knowledge of linguistics and my intuition on common concepts for dog names.

EDIT: Possibly "little horse", because IIRC some tribes considered dogs to be like little horses. I may be confusing this with some reference I read in a Riftwar book though. I started reading the Riftwar saga roughly the same time my English/History classes were covering Native America, so something may have bled over in the years since.

"Bear Cub" would also be appropriate.

Besides, He can't find a new GM.
He is the GM.

Given the number of vague rules, self contradictions, and lack of clarifications through errata? I think it's a fair statement. Besides, even the most knowledgeable still need to look up a rule from time to time.

And yet, does it make much difference if your character's real name is bob or joe if everyone knows you as Tank? I admit there is a certain level of completeness and attachment with the character having a real name, but it is hardly a requirement.

I personally think I have a fair grasp of the rules, but that's because I've studied (and run) it for a few years here. I've found many interesting things and had some interesting innovations. Speaking of which, I need to get to posting that new thread...

Depends on the campaign. It sounds like the game in question was intended to be a rather RP-oriented one, as there are complaints about the characters themselves being silly or not much more than pages of stats. In a game like that, the names at least should be a requirement, if you ask me. (Makes things more interesting, anyway.)

Hehe. No.

He was an Eastern Drake, and orrientals are sometimes (at least, in my particular circle of associations) are called "slinky dragons" because of how they're often portrayed ignoring the laws of physics and weaving their lithe bodies around "like a slinky."



Correct sir. Nahkohe is Cheyenne for "bear." He was so named as a puppy because he looked like a bear cub (though as he grew up he resembled that less and less).

Common nick-name was "Knuckle head."

Names are an interesting thing, especially in Shadowrun. While it is useful to have something to call a runner their final handle is something that can be earned in game.

As an experienced roleplayer, I usually have some sort of concept in mind - my current shadowrun character started with the concept 'mad, androgynous cowboy', but sometimes the characters' name can be hard to settle on.

With new roleplayers, you just have to cut them some slack. And in any case, your line-up is no more outrageous than some I've played with.

This is true. That just makes it a Pink Mohawk campaign.

My wife is going to draw the party. She's a gifted artist. I'll post it here when she's done.

Or, you know, a snake

Dragons in general are based on snakes, eagles, and wolves/lions as I recall. It is apparently something hardcoded into our genes. Thats why dragons always have serpentine bodies (Eastern more than western), claws (like a bird of prey), and lots of teeth sharp, often including fangs.

Well, if you want to take the statement as all rules, every rule to exhaustion, then yes. Otherwise, knowing the rules is pretty simple. I know, for a fact, that there is someone in the world who spent inordinate amounts of time learning every detail all the same. I just tend to nitpick sweeping statements, even as I at times make my own.



It does to the character. It is only as important as the player in question makes it, and sometimes that can be very important. It can also be amazing. If you play the same character for two years who goes by Tank and someone approaches her to say "Good morning, Samantha", then it can be very powerful.

But yes, not a requirement: just a statement that I tend to like figuring out names as they make up a lot of the identity.



Elation! Do I receive a cookie?



You are somewhat correct: some tribes considered horses to be large dogs. Native Americans were familiar with dogs, but horses were brought over from Europe.

Ah, now that is my area of expertise: dragons are elemental in nature, based on forces of nature (the ability of flight, power over air, scales like stone, power over earth, serpentine creatures, which were associated with water, and burning breath, power over fire) as well as a great mix of creatures. They appear in virtually every corner of the world in various incarnations, with some cultures even sharing similar views of a dragon (the Winged Serpent is known in both North America and Australia).

Many Native American dragons had deer antlers or (as funny as it will sound) the ears of a rabbit mixed with the rest of their features. Dragons just seem to be a common myth. I think you're right on the money: dragons are composed of what a culture perceives as powerful, which always includes predators.

Sounds to me like someone thinks too highly of themself. Everyone has to start somewhere, the point is to encourage so that they become "better players".

Another common name I use: "snakey-drake." It was, however, too direct for a ShadowRunner's handle.



*Gives brownies, as promised.*



Our cats consider the horses "large dogs."

The characters of that party don't even sound like they are from a game of Shadowrun.


On the name thing, it does sound like your brother is just lazy. But I agree that naming can be difficult in a game like Shadowrun where most characters use some kind of handle or nickname of sorts. You put a lot of work into creating a character, and you want to find a name that fits without being too cheesy or dramatic (well, okay, so many players don't care about it being cheesy).


That all said, I guess I can commend your patience. I don't think I'd be able to GM a group that silly unless they brought awesome snacks. I'd have to use a bunch of pre-published adventures, because there's no way I'd waste time writing anything. Are they newbies to role playing, or just to Shadowrun?

Technically, I believe most dragon concepts to be based off of dinosaurs. When you consider we had the word "computer" in the dictionary before "dinosaur," and there's plenty of dinosaur-looking dragons out there, people had to know them as something.

Not to mention the controversial evidence of human-dinosaur coexistance, or the existance of still-living dinosaurs (apatasaurus, triceratops, plesiasaurus, pteradactyl [screw looking for the correct spellings], among others).

Not sure where the common view of Western ones came from. And before Tolkein, they were nearly all viewed as un-intelligent beasts. If the shoe fits...

Try telling a Western Dragon (s)he's "Unintelligent", and that shoe (Size 68) will fit right up your hoop.

Might take a bit of time and forcing, but Dragons are patient creatures.

That's not, exactly, entirely true. And I'm not even considering ancient Chinese works here.

Lets start with Fafnir.

And then continue to The Laidly Worm.

And The Dragon Maid and the Dragon Maid of Ireland.

As well as virtually all Native American dragons. Not just Chinese, but Japanese dragons were very intelligent as well (they were also often river gods).

Incidentally, Fafnir was always one of my favorite dragon names.

Side discussion enclosed:


You know, I've never heard of a group, much less been in one, that actually seems to be made for itself. Well, I correct myself. I ran a game with everyone having amnesia so I made the characters, and they were made to interact and compliment themselves well. Standardly what you get from SR is very much like you described - 1 crappy character because someone doesn't know how to build one, 2 mages (Mage/Adept), and a well-designed street sam. That's actually a misnomer (or close to it) because street sams are so easy to build they always are well rounded.

I know in all of our games, characters aren't accepted until they have a name. Street names/aliases are optional, and can come through gameplay (one NPC teammate earned the name Turncoat despite all the GM's effort to the contrary, another PC got named Bob due to his complicated oriental name, etc)

Sure, dinosaurs still exist. I have just seen Elvis riding one.

I have told my players that they name their characters, or I do.

...

Actually, I usually end up naming them anyhow, such as "Captain Cuisinart", the Bio-Ninja Wanna-be.

Well, they do actually, depending on how you want to define a dinosaur. Plenty of creatures from that age are still around, I think Alligators are one of the more notable examples as I recall.

And of course, don't forget the mightiest of all dinos... the chicken

But really, Alligator totally qualifies.

Cockroaches have been around for how long?

And they get even nastier in the Sixth World!

I'm fascinated by the thought that the name on the Fake ID is actually important. It's like that scene where Joey is freaking out because he doesn't have a name. It's classic because he has a name and a personality but because he doesn't know who he is (yay for puberty) he doesn't know what to call himself.

On the original version of my current character sheet (before I found out Amnesia wasn't legal in Missions), the running joke was going to be that he introduced himself to Mr. Johnson by a different name every time. I was planning on doing them in alphabetical order.

You can call me... Aaron.
You can call me... Bradley.
You can call me... Charles.

Personally, I was referring to the character in my mind as "You can call me". ""I don't know how badly things have to go wrong to wake up with clothes, a cheap gun, a cheap comlink, and nothing but a chance to start life over again. And I wish I knew, because I'm the guy it's happening to. You can call me... Bradley."

In all honesty, I'm fascinated that I even write backstories for my Shadowrun characters. They're playing in a world where they want to forget where they came from, where no one wants to know where they came from, and where they're going to pretend to be other people different names and different backgrounds for the rest of their lives.

IMO, where you came from helps define who you are and how you made it to where you are. So to me, a backstory is pretty important. I only care what the Fake ID name says if you have one. We always care about the character's REAL name, or at least the one that everyone calls him by. Otherwise, it's just "Hey you!" and that isn't acceptable in our games. YMMV

That's soooo the dystopia of the past.. these days, Market Research wants to know exactly who you are and where you came from. Isn't that nice?

Yeah, at this point I can churn out a SR4 character, or character for most table-tops I play, in almost no time. But the name? Sometimes it takes an hour, sometimes it takes three days.

Thank you. Alligators, many other types of small reptiles, and other such creatures are still alive from that time. The Hyracotherum (..?) is now called a hyrax, still alive in New Zealand and South America IIRC, and believe it or not there's growing support amongst scientists to reclassify many birds as dinosaurs, like the hummingbird.

Also, except for size, hundreds of creatures are identical to fossils of them, such as mosquitos, dragonflies (dragon!), centipedes... There's a massive list actually.

EDIT: Also, go search for "Living Fossils." Horseshoe crabs, frilled sharks, the celeocanth, the graptolite, and many other supposed index fossils have been found alive and well.

Nice dodge. Your initial post stated giant dinos like the triceratops and the brontosaurus as still living and now you are talking about birds? Let's try to stay on track:

- Human-dinosaur coexistence?
- Triceratops still living?
- Apatosaurus still living?

Please cite your sources for those.

1) A wealth of evidence, such as many cited footprints of both humans and dinosaurs in the same "strata" layers and the Ica stones.

2 + 3) It's called Cryptozoology. Go search it. Mokele-Mbembe, batamzinga, kongamato, seram, orang-bati.... Many others (or the same ones with different tribal names). In fact you can probably find the radio recording of mokele-mbembe doing his calls out in the swamps.