Again, I'm lost. How does a GM "win"?

I understand how one gets stuck with players like that. One signs up to run an event at a con. That's a 4 hour commitment, come muchkin or high water.

How does one get stuck with a GM like that? At a con, the players just get up and leave. Not at a con, how? Was this a friend who just didn't get it or some sort of sign up sheet at the LFGS? I'm lost.

Just unlucky, I guess.

Back in the early 90s, I used to talk to a couple guys behind the counter of our FLGS. We exchanged stories of past character exploits, or player issues or stuff we had run. One of them always talked about how he retired from running games, but eventually he decided to run one at the store (it was a sign up sheet, I believe). As I normally ran games, I was really excited to play in one outside of my normal gaming circle. Unfortunately, this guy was a "sheet collector" and he won by killing players and taking their sheets. I was shattered as my character was killed and he requested my sheet. I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. I was about to go home when he asked where I was going and told me to just roll up another character and get back in the game. I did, but I never showed back up for a second session.

And sometimes its players that force the GM into the "win" mentality. They look for loopholes in rules and in story to show the GM up. They enjoy besting the GM, so the GM looks to more and more things to beat the players. None of the players want to run a game, as that is "work" and this pressure will build until someone quits...

Other GMs just power trip. They may not be in control in many other aspects of their lives, so when it comes to a fantasy world, they have all the control and can do what they want. If given the choice to play with a bad GM or not play, many will choose to make the best of it and just hope to not get on their bad side, in or out of game...I've played in a few of those as well.

A GM "wins" by defeating the players. Silly I know but it comes from the old idea that the GM is trying to get a TPK and the rules are there to protect the players. Its a very antagonistic relationship.


For myself when I started gaming we were all just friends and some GMs are better than others. Over the years I found players will put up with alot of crap from GMs either because they can't find a GM or a GM is that amazing of storyteller. Take the particular case I bought up the GM builds intro videos for each session using adobe premier, has handouts for important stuff, 1001 character voices to pull from, music and sound fx, lighting, tells a great story and is very energetic. Its all fantastic, except he cheated to win in the final battle because he wanted to "win". In his mind rather than a TPK he wanted the fighter to slay the dragon after his comrades had fallen, unfortunately for the GM the rest of us would not die so easy.

When I GM I feel like I'm spending most of my time figuring out how to "cheat" to keep the PCs alive.... The world is a brutal place, PCs need all the help they can get .

The only thing I can obviously deduce from the thread, is many of you need to go play more Descent and less shadowrun....

I haven't actually played or run Shadowrun in over a year...

DSF is my only involvement in the game...unfortunately.

One gets stuck with a bad GM usually because it is the only game you can find. And for some the choice between no game and a bad game the bad game wins.

Before my current Saturday night group I was stuck in a bad game with a bad GM. I had recently moved back to the San Francisco bay area from New York and it was the first and only shadowrun game I could find. My current GM was in a similar boat but he joined this craptastic group a few months after I had. After a few sessions he wanted out and he had with me almost enough for a group so he tracked down one more person and we started are own group. While it hasn't been a perfect gaming string for the 6+ years I have known him it has been as good as can be expected given we are all adults, some have had kids, moved, new jobs etc.

I don't mind GMing so I could have tried to start my own group, but I quite frankly suck at it. I still do it now and then to give GMs a break and to try and improve my skills but its not a good experience for anyone involved, it just nice for the GM to occasionally be the player as well.

Oh god, that made my day.

What if the GM thinks hes making it more fun but he is really just annoying his players

That's up to them to say, now isn't it?

But there's always the net, why game with a bad GM when there are hundreds of games out there.


Eh-uh, then the players nicely, but firmly tell him that it wasn't fun? Suggest him some ways to improve? Like, you know, adults are supposed to do?

I live in Seattle, home of passive aggressive, we prefer to either blow up at something unrelated and walk out (Arggg this Pepsi is warm! I Quit!), grumble about it for years, or disappear into the night

In Person is so much better than online

How you deal with cheating GMs is up to you. The fact that they exist-- the GM out to "win"-- is beyond dispute. What scares me is the people who claim they don't exist. Those are the most likely to b the ones who cheat and metagame in the first place. Those who are aware of their roles tend to be more along the kind who will bend the rules and plotlines to make for a more fun game. It becomes cheating when you do it so you can win the game.

Agreed. Obviously, the problem is a 'hostile' GM, not 'metagaming' at all. That's merely a tool, that can clearly be used for good or bad ends.

Actually, the GM need not be "hostile". I've met many "storyteller" GM's who simply get frustrated when the players deviate too much form their beloved plots. They metagame and railroad the players in exactly the same fashion. But it still amounts to things that a good GM won't do.

In a way, this thread is meant to help sucky GM's learn what they're doing wrong, and get better. None of us were born a good GM, we all had a learning curve. If we can train the ones that suck, we can help make things better for gamers everywhere.

I suck in totally different ways than this thread. I'm just not an entertaining GM, I'm not good with fluff descriptions of the scene of combat, not too good at playing more than a a couple of my better developed characters well etc. Metagaming, nope don't do it. I'm fine with the players coming up with an awesome plan. My only beef in settings like SR are when a real life tech players is trying to out tech/science the game since they know I never studied science or math past what was required to graduate with a non tech degree. There I somewhat metagame in the sense I have no idea what the heck the real science is, but I say super future science blocked it bitches. But that is mainly because the players well more player is trying to bully me with his science knowledge.

That's what 'hostile' meant, Cain. Otherwise, there's no reason for single-quotes.

My bad. I thought you were referring to the actively hostile, me-vs-them, style of GMing.

Well, sort of. If the story is more important than the players, that's still me-vs-them. So it's both.

Storytelling and open playground are less two distinct styles, and more the opposite ends of a spectrum. Personally, I like plots - but plots, not stories. Plots are going to unfold whether the PCs bite on the plot hook or not, but once they jump in, anything can happen - player decisions and the random factor of the dice can take things in all kinds of directions.

Storytelling GMs need to realize that the players are not mere characters in the story - they are fellow authors of the story.

It boils down to the really old rule.

Don't be a dick.

It is possible to use meta-gaming for non-dickish reasons.




-karma

Read more, play with more colorful GMs and players and, as with everything, practice, practice, practice. Don't be afraid to risk ridicule. More often than not it works (and even when it doesn't work how you intend, the players love it). Worst case, your players know you're just trying to enrich the game, but you're a terrible improv actor.




Actually, *MY* problem is I'm not enough of a dick. I always give the players the benefit of the doubt, and since I'm rolling everyone's dice on an online game, that sometimes means I'll reroll critical saves two or three times 'because he would have put more pool in'. Bad me. I'm working on giving them less time, changing what they 'know' faster, and being more willing to kill off characters (thus far I've killed off I believe 5 characters - 3 left, 2 suicides. Like 'HALO Drop into the center of the enemy camp' suicide.)

Oh god, I've been at the table with that player too. But I've also been at the table of the railroading GM that drops mountains and oceans and unpassable lava regions to prevent you from going in any direction other that say...east.

A side comment on the transmission stuff, even in the sr4 story 'fluff' they'll give us shortstories on how someone is at the front desk of a corp enclave that explains to them the place is shielded and jammed and such. Assuming the place is doing the smart thing and sniffing for active transmissions, if said setup DID detect transmissions that alone would be an area of concern, if for just the fact the interlopers are transmitting with enough strength to punch through jamming.

I try and do both. I base the storyline (isn't the plot the same thing?-by your definition no) on the PC's backgrounds and the initial adventures being run. In just an open playground, it really requires the group to show initiative and have an understanding of the game world. Which is not always the case. This also can lead to capaign to nowhere and often becomes a game about just getting the Mcguffinware or improving stats.

Just some defs to clarify:
Plot/Storyline: NPCs, their motivations and what they plan to do. (Good)
Open playground: Players state what their PC's are doing. Gm takes it from there. (iffy, needs some plot to make it go)
Railroading:Making an event happen despite the fact the PC's have taken actions to avoid it (Bad--really bad).


That last bit in you post I'll give a big +1 and an internet.

If your GM sucks, go start your own table.

I was wondering earlier why some people mostly encountered sucky GMs and I rarely do. Then I realized that in my circle of friends, almost all of them GM. The big issue has always been "What night do we all have available?", not "Who is going to GM?". "Who is going to GM?" is almost always dependent on what game we're going to play, i.e. who's world we're going to go stomping in.

If your GM sucks, become the GM instead. Quit complaining and take responsibility. If you need help, ask for advice.
If a player sucks, get rid of them. If that means no more public games, then take responsibility and clean off the dining room table or get a folding table for the basement/garage and just have people bring folding chairs.

Calling people names, telling them they suck, and crying that no one plays the game your way doesn't make things better for gamers anywhere. Just take responsibility for your own situation.

I read this and I wonder why there was so much kvetching about the theoretical. Everyone has power - exercise it.

That's easier said than done, suoq.

I've probably got a dozen of so friends that I'll spend time with, face to face. A few of them aren't local, so I only see them when they are in town or I got to hang out with them (so, say 3-4 times a year). A few of them have no interest in RPGs. So, I'm left with the five guys I currently game with. If my GM sucks and I go start my own table, unless I recruit a few from this same group to play, I am left with going out and looking for random people that are interested in gaming. I suppose I could go to a FLGS and start a game there, but I have been in public games and its really hit or miss.

And this is me, a 34 year old professional, with a wife and two kids. Time is at a premium and I'm really not open to inviting random people to my house. Take me back 15-20 years, and I'm in high school and I'm likely not able to host or provide my own transportation, so I'm stuck with the same friends I have or the ones I can make at school. I was aware of about 6 different gaming circles in high school, so out of some 1,200 kids going to my school, that's less than 30 that play RPGs. And in high school, you have different social cliques to break through...

As we have seen, there is not one resolution or rule that can be followed, because there are a lot of different situations. You have a group where everyone, or almost everyone GM. And I'd assume, none of them are bad GMs. I'm in a group where two of us GM and while the other 4 are capable, they don't want to invest the time into running a game.

That is just two scenarios. Not everyone is at the same maturity level, and therefore calling people names and telling them they suck is going to happen...

My group is full of mature adults, so if the GM is being an asshat or a player is causing problems, we can talk it out relatively quickly and move on to the game. We've ended campaigns because the GM wasn't "feeling it anymore" or got burned out. We've ended them because the players wanted to play a different game or a new shiny version or just didn't like the way the campaign was going. You are not going to get that flexibility in all groups, as peoples's feeling can get hurt.

So, you can't give one answer to solve every problem. Go start your own table is not a viable solution to, I'd estimate, 50% of the situations.

If you need to meet random people, do it. Go out to a public place to meet them and, if appropriate, play (or invite yourself over to their house for the gaming). Unless you're in some god-forsaken place like Nebraska or Canada, you should be able to find someone willing to game with at least once a month, even if you have to compromise on the system. I found a group through a combination of Craigslist, friend networks and online forums. While they range from nuts to REALLY nuts, none are people who are any real risk to my person or property, and we had a lot of fun.

Everyone has dealt with the 'I'm too young to drive anywhere' thing. Some of us deal with the 'I live in Canada' problem. In both cases, advertise more. You want players, do some digging and make your desire known. Post ads at the FLGS, or start a club. Maybe start finding people who don't know they want to play and pull them in. Comic book geeks would probably be good, since they're both literate and already stigmatized.

If you can't do that, go online. I run a game on RPoL in play in two more because I don't have time for a monthly in person gaming group. Now I play MORE than before, even if it is a different experience. You'd also be surprised at how often those people come into your real life. Out of my group of six random people, one happens to live half an hour away and joined my RL group, and two more I've met in person, and could have done quick games with them.

If you can't do that but have a bad gaming group, find out if they're really interested in playing, WHAT they're interested in playing, then talk with them as adults and work on their gaming style. If your GM is bad, GM. If your players are bad, hit them. Break them into smaller groups until they break those bad habits.

If you can't do any of that, do I like I do and find a woman with poor taste and start making your OWN gaming group. Sure it takes about 7-8 years before anyone is ready to roll dice, but once they are, they have no choice. They're ALWAYS at the gaming table. It's on then. (Plus, if they show poor gaming etiquette, you're legally allowed to lock them in their rooms.)

Some people don't want to go through that much trouble.

I'm lazy. I wouldn't. If my gaming group dissolves for some reason and we don't keep playing as a smaller group, then I'll just not play. I didn't play for about 6 years after college because of that exact reason. It wasn't worth my effort to organize and coordinate a group. So I didn't play.

Its also harder in some places than others. Seattle I cant throw a stone without hitting a gamer but in Yakima the options are much smaller(Even hard to find anyone who plays D&D, the one "gaming" store mostly sells records and CDs with small a magazine rack with rpgs). This becomes even harder once your out of college.

Yeah at my local gamestore it is all card games all the time. Pen and paper is out of style, though the store itself is trying to start some D&D up. I think card sales must be slipping. I had to drive 45 minutes to game after looking for a group for about 6 months. Luckily my GM moved so he is only a few blocks away now.

Ron's Coin & Book Center 292901 W Nob Hill Blvd, Yakima - Tomorrow. (Also Wednesday). D&D Encounters, Dark Sun

I live in Nebraska. I quit gaming 10 years ago because I was involved with my job and my children and RPGS, Computer Games, and Conventions all pretty much went by the wayside due to time and financial constraints. (Read: "Because I choose to do that. No one made me.")

When my son became old enough to show an interest in my KODT comics, I reintroduced myself to gaming. I took him to a small local convention. From there I found open D&D play that met our schedule and met a bunch of people there. From there I took him on a roadtrip to Kearney, NE (population 6500, 0 game stores) for a game convention there. Since then I've met the group I'm currently playing Shadowrun with.

Deek is right. If you're lazy or immature it isn't going to happen. You have to take responsibility for your own happiness if you want to be happy. You have to make your own opportunities sometime. If you can get 120 people in Yakima to pony up 10 bucks each, you can rent the Celebration Hall ( http://chyakima.com/ ) on a Saturday. The easiest way to do this is to head over to Ron's Coins and Books and see if you can post a notice to get a con committee together. Get people together by e-mail or facebook. Find a bar no one goes to and hold a couple meetings there (or even at Ron's). Plan for it late in the winter when everyone just wants to get out of the house if you think the streets will be drivable. Look for sponsors. Make up the costs by selling sodas. Take donations. If it works out, you have a game convention. If it's not going to work out, you'll know the risks long before you rent the convention center and in the meantime you'll have had the opportunity to meet more gamers.

Oh, and go to PAX next month. Sept 3-5. Meet people there. It isn't that far of a drive. Wear a shirt that says "Yakima" on it somewhere, at least on Saturday. The more people who have the chance to say "Hey, I live right near you", the better your chance is of getting a group together.

suoq: that's some very interesting advice.

I happen to be a member of a fairly alternative student society, so as you might imagine, I'm faced with a buffet of groups to play in and loads of people who want me to GM. But this luxury problem didn't come about purely by accident.

We'd set up a long-running "lost-stakes" D&D campaign to introduce new people to RPGing, particularly new freshmen members. With a common setting, but varying GMs and only one-shot adventures. Like RPGA or Missions, basically, and it's been running for around 8 years now I think. It's spawned over a dozen groups and helped players meet existing groups as well.

Based on the roots of this D&D campaign, games I know of that have been spawned so far include:
- D&D 2, 3 and soon 4
- Shadowrun
- Runequest
- Mage the Ascension
- Vampire the Masquerade
- Ars Magica
- Spycraft

Dude I live in Seattle, I was talking about when I grew up in Yakima... At the college even groups were small. Yakima people are into Baseball and Budwiser, maybe working on their truck the RPG players are few and far between. Notice the store you found is COIN AND BOOK... Coin is first. The RPG group in college was less than 30 people, if you figure 1/2 those people are people you dont want to hang out with or game with the number is now 15... If your an over 30 something adult (which I have friends back there who are) good luck.

Finding a good gaming group is a challenge, no doubt about it. Tete knows about the guy we had to boot. He was also the most prolific game organizer in my relatively small town.

But that's slightly off-topic. Metagaming is when you give GM knowledge to the NPC's. This is never a good thing. Bending the rules a bit (heck, a lot) is okay when you're positive it'll make the game more fun for everyone, but even then you have to be careful-- what if you're wrong?

Suoq, you have no idea what Tete has gone through, and who he's gamed with. Please stop insulting his knowledge.

That's false for two reasons.
First, in any sufficiently large gaming community, you're bound to find people living near you who you haven't previously known. Gaming online is a simple and quick way to determine who of them makes a good player and is worth playing with in meatspace (if you're so willing to do just that).
Second, many roleplayers I know, myself included, find it much easier to get into their role online, especially when it comes to character mannerisms and such, since online gaming offers a certain larger distance between you and your character, after all.

No, in-person is much better. You're right that online is bigger, and perhaps some people roleplay better online, but those factors aren't enough to tip the scales.

Your proofs are very conclusive, Yerameyahu.

Because it's clearly an objectively measurable standard...

Exactly.

Tabletop is better because I can't throw dice or cheesepuffs at other players online for making bad puns.


-karma

You can kick them from the gaming channel, though.

Overkill much?

Nah, everyone's got autoreconnect on anyway.
Now, banning them would be overreacting, of course.

Fair enough, that was just me being ignorant.

I think live is better. People don't edit their comments as much, leading to a lot more hilarious: "Did you really say *that*?!" moments.

I am glad to know that your opinion trumps mine so thoroughly.

online, people join games, and then dont' show up, or only show up for 2 sessions and then dissapear.
Every online game I've ever been in that involved strangers always falls apart within 10 sessions, tops.

RPing in person is just more fun, it's socializing. Online gaming is.. basically MUDing.
And really if you can't rp as well in person as you do online, perhaps that says more about you than the rest of us.

Funny, my online game has been running for 7 years, with about 2 posts a day on average (sometimes as many as 15, sometimes 0, because people go on vacations and I don't post on weekends). I've got an excellent crew of very smart runners who give me a run for my money.

Meanwhile, my in-person game is almost guaranteed to be just D&D, with a bunch of crazies who don't show up about 40% of the time, and when they do show up, I have to lead them everywhere by the nose, only for the campaign to die two games short of the end because of 'social issues'.

I'll stick to online, thank you.

Play By Post?
I don't even count that as playing an RPG.