Full Version: Ghouls, damnit!
I like the ghouls as a clean-up tool. They keep the Shedim at bay, and keep the background count down. I'm of the opinion that Azzie Jaguar and Eagle guards are all ghouls, as that would help keep another clusterfuck like the Yucatan from happening. It also fits the history of the Aztecs that Aztlan seems so hell-bent on emulating.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 21 2010, 02:42 PM) 
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And this made me laugh
QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 22 2010, 12:55 PM)
Don't forget Asamando, that African nation with 99% of it's metahuman population Infected, and about 30% of the population are Magicians. Estimated at 500,000 citizens, it has to devour 300,000 people per year (0.05*Population*12). How much of that needs to be imported?
To model their domestic "produce" of corpses, I'll use modern day Swaziland's crude death rate. Swaziland has the world's highest HIV infection rate at 26.1%, and HMHVV is basically magical AIDS, so I feel their death rate will make a decent lower bound for Asamado. Swaziland has a death rate of 30.83 per 1000 per year, compared to 6-7% in the US and Europe. Their annual production of dead people will be 15,000 bodies, some 285,000 bodies short.
The moral of the story? Shadowrun writers don't bother with math.
To model their domestic "produce" of corpses, I'll use modern day Swaziland's crude death rate. Swaziland has the world's highest HIV infection rate at 26.1%, and HMHVV is basically magical AIDS, so I feel their death rate will make a decent lower bound for Asamado. Swaziland has a death rate of 30.83 per 1000 per year, compared to 6-7% in the US and Europe. Their annual production of dead people will be 15,000 bodies, some 285,000 bodies short.
The moral of the story? Shadowrun writers don't bother with math.
I haven't run through the mathematics behind it, but it is possible to reach a state of equilibrium in which a ghoul population's growth can be kept safe as long as you remember to "harvest" the population at a certain age. Also, putting metahumans into the mix changes the numbers dramatically - one troll can feed a family of gnomes for a few days, whereas the reverse is not neccessarily true.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 23 2010, 11:27 PM)
I haven't run through the mathematics behind it, but it is possible to reach a state of equilibrium in which a ghoul population's growth can be kept safe as long as you remember to "harvest" the population at a certain age. Also, putting metahumans into the mix changes the numbers dramatically - one troll can feed a family of gnomes for a few days, whereas the reverse is not neccessarily true.
True enough. Running the calculations with a few assumptions thrown in can show what the carrying capacity of the SR world is for ghouls.
1 ghoul needs to eat 2.6 times it's body weight per year. Assuming homogeneous populations, this can be assumed to equate to 2.6 individuals per year.
Death rates are calculated as deaths per 1000, so for 1 ghoul in a population of 1000, a death rate of 2.6 is sufficient.
If death rates are fairly awful, at 26 per 1000, that population can support a ghoul population of 10.
Ghouls have to be at less than 1% of the population to not need to kill other people.
Therefor, a population with an acceptable ration of ghouls to death rate can treat them like people, but any increase in that population needs to be treated as a cataclysm.
QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 24 2010, 07:48 AM)
True enough. Running the calculations with a few assumptions thrown in can show what the carrying capacity of the SR world is for ghouls.
1 ghoul needs to eat 2.6 times it's body weight per year. Assuming homogeneous populations, this can be assumed to equate to 2.6 individuals per year.
Death rates are calculated as deaths per 1000, so for 1 ghoul in a population of 1000, a death rate of 2.6 is sufficient.
If death rates are fairly awful, at 26 per 1000, that population can support a ghoul population of 10.
Ghouls have to be at less than 1% of the population to not need to kill other people.
Therefor, a population with an acceptable ration of ghouls to death rate can treat them like people, but any increase in that population needs to be treated as a cataclysm.
1 ghoul needs to eat 2.6 times it's body weight per year. Assuming homogeneous populations, this can be assumed to equate to 2.6 individuals per year.
Death rates are calculated as deaths per 1000, so for 1 ghoul in a population of 1000, a death rate of 2.6 is sufficient.
If death rates are fairly awful, at 26 per 1000, that population can support a ghoul population of 10.
Ghouls have to be at less than 1% of the population to not need to kill other people.
Therefor, a population with an acceptable ration of ghouls to death rate can treat them like people, but any increase in that population needs to be treated as a cataclysm.
Except that the ghouls food doesn't need to gome from a formerly alive human, clones work just as well.
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 23 2010, 11:44 PM)
Except that the ghouls food doesn't need to gome from a formerly alive human, clones work just as well.
Great for wealthy ghouls, or those living in first world countries, not so great for every other ghoul on the planet.
QUOTE
The moral of the story? Shadowrun writers don't bother with math.
It would be augmented by two things.
I thought feral ghouls were a fairly large percentage of ghouls. Feral ghouls would eat other metahumans dead or alive and the feral ghouls in turn would be killed by every one else; feral ghouls, normal ghouls, critters, and normal people. Part of the high death rate may be from new ghouls who do not last long.
The math is still off maybe but it may just be that people are dieing at a horrific rate.
QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Aug 24 2010, 12:09 AM)
It would be augmented by two things.
I thought feral ghouls were a fairly large percentage of ghouls. Feral ghouls would eat other metahumans dead or alive and the feral ghouls in turn would be killed by every one else; feral ghouls, normal ghouls, critters, and normal people. Part of the high death rate may be from new ghouls who do not last long.
The math is still off maybe but it may just be that people are dieing at a horrific rate.
I thought feral ghouls were a fairly large percentage of ghouls. Feral ghouls would eat other metahumans dead or alive and the feral ghouls in turn would be killed by every one else; feral ghouls, normal ghouls, critters, and normal people. Part of the high death rate may be from new ghouls who do not last long.
The math is still off maybe but it may just be that people are dieing at a horrific rate.
Well it had better be higher then the birth rates, cause otherwise, that country will go extinct as the ghouls eat everyone, and then either starve, or go feral.
What makes you think that people will be okay with giving the Ghouls Grandma's corpse after she dies of old age? or Their 6 year old daughter who died of terminal cancer that they couldn't afford to have cured.
Cannibalism is one of those instinctive things. Very few societies are going to treat ghouls as people too.
Cannibalism is one of those instinctive things. Very few societies are going to treat ghouls as people too.
Yeah, how about Ghouls in Quebec?
Oh, wait, never mind. Damned separatists.
Oh, wait, never mind. Damned separatists.
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 24 2010, 09:19 AM)
What makes you think that people will be okay with giving the Ghouls Grandma's corpse after she dies of old age? or Their 6 year old daughter who died of terminal cancer that they couldn't afford to have cured.
Cannibalism is one of those instinctive things. Very few societies are going to treat ghouls as people too.
Cannibalism is one of those instinctive things. Very few societies are going to treat ghouls as people too.
Some folks donate their bodies to the ghoul community.
Some ghouls have shady deals with morgues.
Cremation is the main form of burial rights currently..guess how easy it is to scam people and give them random ashes and sell the corpse?
Not to mention there's the tons and tons of medical waste that comes out of hospitals every day thats probably useful to ghouls
And how about all those people that just "Go Missing", and are never reported as "Dead" until years later? If ever?
Heh heh heh
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Aug 24 2010, 02:30 PM)
Some folks donate their bodies to the ghoul community.
Some ghouls have shady deals with morgues.
Cremation is the main form of burial rights currently..guess how easy it is to scam people and give them random ashes and sell the corpse?
Not to mention there's the tons and tons of medical waste that comes out of hospitals every day thats probably useful to ghouls
Some ghouls have shady deals with morgues.
Cremation is the main form of burial rights currently..guess how easy it is to scam people and give them random ashes and sell the corpse?
Not to mention there's the tons and tons of medical waste that comes out of hospitals every day thats probably useful to ghouls
Yes
That is how ghouls would get their stuff.
But if that morgue gets caught.. there's going to be riots.
People won't like it.. certainly people won't accept Ghouls as "People Too"
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 24 2010, 09:12 AM)
Certainly people won't accept Ghouls as "People Too"
You know, I'm not so sure...
"You are what you eat" after all.
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 24 2010, 10:12 AM)
Yes
That is how ghouls would get their stuff.
But if that morgue gets caught.. there's going to be riots.
People won't like it.. certainly people won't accept Ghouls as "People Too"
That is how ghouls would get their stuff.
But if that morgue gets caught.. there's going to be riots.
People won't like it.. certainly people won't accept Ghouls as "People Too"
Just like how there would be riots if society at large knew even a fraction of anything that really happens in the shadows? You might as well be talking about the blood mages employed by aztec, or the bug spirits that are being experimented on by ares.
Or the bug spirit that almost became president.
Or the political games that go on around the world. Which happens today IRL, and there's not many riots about it.
Then again, the Prime Minister was out of pepper when the deligates from China were over about a decade ago... Apparently the RCMP used it all...
Or the political games that go on around the world. Which happens today IRL, and there's not many riots about it.
Then again, the Prime Minister was out of pepper when the deligates from China were over about a decade ago... Apparently the RCMP used it all...
But none of those things are in the populace's face.
That Aztec Bloodmage doesn't live down the street from you. He isn't watching over where your kids are playing.
That Aztec Bloodmage doesn't live down the street from you. He isn't watching over where your kids are playing.
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 24 2010, 09:25 AM)
That Aztec Bloodmage doesn't live down the street from you. He isn't watching over where your kids are playing.
Unless, of course, you're living in an AZT-Owned Corporate Housing Complex.
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Aug 24 2010, 05:30 AM)
Cremation is the main form of burial rights currently..guess how easy it is to scam people and give them random ashes and sell the corpse?
Memories...
QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 24 2010, 12:48 AM)
True enough. Running the calculations with a few assumptions thrown in can show what the carrying capacity of the SR world is for ghouls.
1 ghoul needs to eat 2.6 times it's body weight per year. Assuming homogeneous populations, this can be assumed to equate to 2.6 individuals per year.
Death rates are calculated as deaths per 1000, so for 1 ghoul in a population of 1000, a death rate of 2.6 is sufficient.
If death rates are fairly awful, at 26 per 1000, that population can support a ghoul population of 10.
Ghouls have to be at less than 1% of the population to not need to kill other people.
Therefor, a population with an acceptable ration of ghouls to death rate can treat them like people, but any increase in that population needs to be treated as a cataclysm.
1 ghoul needs to eat 2.6 times it's body weight per year. Assuming homogeneous populations, this can be assumed to equate to 2.6 individuals per year.
Death rates are calculated as deaths per 1000, so for 1 ghoul in a population of 1000, a death rate of 2.6 is sufficient.
If death rates are fairly awful, at 26 per 1000, that population can support a ghoul population of 10.
Ghouls have to be at less than 1% of the population to not need to kill other people.
Therefor, a population with an acceptable ration of ghouls to death rate can treat them like people, but any increase in that population needs to be treated as a cataclysm.
Right, but you can also go ahead and determine that at, say, 50 years old a person is of harvestable age - whenever anyone reaches 50 years old they are killed for ghoul food. This works inside the ghoul's population itself, removing the neccessity of importing food if the population growth rate is at a certain level.
Orks work well for that - one "productive" ork woman in 20 years will produce between 160 and 320 young, with 240 being the average expected yield. With their higher body mass, you can use orks as a food source for ghouls very easily.
Delicious delicious orks.
Gives a whole new meaning to the words Long Pig.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 24 2010, 12:19 PM)
Right, but you can also go ahead and determine that at, say, 50 years old a person is of harvestable age - whenever anyone reaches 50 years old they are killed for ghoul food. This works inside the ghoul's population itself, removing the neccessity of importing food if the population growth rate is at a certain level.
Orks work well for that - one "productive" ork woman in 20 years will produce between 160 and 320 young, with 240 being the average expected yield. With their higher body mass, you can use orks as a food source for ghouls very easily.
Orks work well for that - one "productive" ork woman in 20 years will produce between 160 and 320 young, with 240 being the average expected yield. With their higher body mass, you can use orks as a food source for ghouls very easily.
This works best if the orks are given their own rights and property by the ghoul nation. One of the big things with orks right now is how they mature faster so a lot of the laws is slow to award them things they could be doing for years - combined with their lower life expectancy this is particularly annoying. So the ghoul nation cordons off an area for ork's rights, allows them to draft their own laws and regulations, and in exchange they obtain all rights to the bodies of the dead. Or even tacking on that at age 50 or so (close to the end of their lives anyways) the orks are harvested.
Everyone wins.
'Harvesting' people at a certain age is a bit -too- dystopian for me.
It's not crowded enough for soylent green yet.
Isn't the ork population like 25% worldwide vs. >1% for worldwide ghouls?
I'm not sure how >1% of a similarly impoverished pariah race could address the inequities of the Ork Nation.
I suppose if ghouls wanted to hire themselves out as metahuman garbage compactors, they might be able to find a niche...somewhere.
I'm not sure how >1% of a similarly impoverished pariah race could address the inequities of the Ork Nation.
I suppose if ghouls wanted to hire themselves out as metahuman garbage compactors, they might be able to find a niche...somewhere.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 24 2010, 01:31 PM)
It's not crowded enough for soylent green yet.
The Ork lifecycle will change that in a relatively small number of years.
Maybe they should take a leaf from the Underground RPG and put a Tastee Ghoul donation slip on the back of your driving licence.
Yes, you too can arrange to sell your body to a cannibal resturaunt chain, for the princely sum of $50.
Tastee Ghoul - Are you a People Person?
Yes, you too can arrange to sell your body to a cannibal resturaunt chain, for the princely sum of $50.
Tastee Ghoul - Are you a People Person?
QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 24 2010, 06:14 PM)
Maybe they should take a leaf from the Underground RPG and put a Tastee Ghoul donation slip on the back of your driving licence.
Yes, you too can arrange to sell your body to a cannibal resturaunt chain, for the princely sum of $50.
Tastee Ghoul - Are you a People Person?
Yes, you too can arrange to sell your body to a cannibal resturaunt chain, for the princely sum of $50.
Tastee Ghoul - Are you a People Person?
Already done- as I said before, you can arrange for your body to be donated.
I'd love to see a run in a small State where Ghouls secretly ran things and when people got to 50 or 60 they were harvested. It sure would fix the social security retirement problem!
Runners could get hired to extradite someone who just made it to harvest age and has enough money or people outside with money and who care.
or have the runners go through some small town in Kansas and break down. Where they find out the residents are all kid and some redhead accuses one of them of being an OUTLANDER!
Runners could get hired to extradite someone who just made it to harvest age and has enough money or people outside with money and who care.
or have the runners go through some small town in Kansas and break down. Where they find out the residents are all kid and some redhead accuses one of them of being an OUTLANDER!
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