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Mäx
The shapeshifter thread go me to read Ghost Cartels again and i was reminded about this little tidbit from Graciela Riveroses stat line
QUOTE (GC page 57)
the clip is loaded with capsulen rounds, alternating between dopadrine mixed with DMSO, ekyelebenle
venom, and a rating 6 acid (10 of each), compounds do damage separately]

That last part makes capsule rounds pretty damm good, one 3 round burst should take out most targets.

Do you people treat a mixed clip of capsule rounds like that, if not how then or do you just dissallow mixed magazines?
Wasabi
I allow alternating but not mixing within the same attack. I houserule that on a given attack whichever is the predominant compound/toxin/drug is what counts for a given attack. If mixed in even quantities I randomize it.

I do allow power level to stage per Missions rules in my home game. So 3 bullets with a given toxin would be at +2 power level to the toxin.

I dont allow acid unless its in a glass container. Explosions like a smallarms cartridge going off would shatter glass in my game.

Note for those that are unaware (which isnt the OP of course!) that with DMSO a huge host of possibilities are out there since it makes injection/ingested vectors become contact vector.

Also of note is the secondary explosion rules. While only Ex-Ex ammo and such cause damage on a secondary explosion if someone has a clip of Ringu and gets hit by a fireball they had better hope their ammo doesnt cook off. The gooey mess can kill a fella!
Yerameyahu
Capsule rounds with drugs/chem, *plus* DMSO if necessary, are so expensive that I say more power to you if you want to start firing bursts of the things. smile.gif It's one full dose per shot, after all.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 24 2010, 08:45 AM) *
Capsule rounds with drugs/chem, *plus* DMSO if necessary, are so expensive that I say more power to you if you want to start firing bursts of the things. smile.gif It's one full dose per shot, after all.

2 shots with K-10 and down they go (well in a couple of hours they are going down). Better run away right after taking those shots though.
Yerameyahu
That's for sure! Use a sniper rifle. smile.gif And that's my point: you just spent 2000¥ for that.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 24 2010, 03:36 PM) *
That's for sure! Use a sniper rifle. smile.gif And that's my point: you just spent 2000¥ for that.


Yeah, but if you need to create a scandal for a public figure or invalidate someone's story as to why you abducted them, a long-range shot of drogas in the maximus could be a hell of a lot of fun.
Lansdren
Slab for the easy take down

I had a concept of a bounty hunter adept using a revolver and a mix of dmso/slab rounds plus stick and shock for quick take downs

SS for them to fall over and the dmso/slab into them to make them sleep
sabs
I have a character who uses a silenced pistol with narcojet capsule rounds as his infiltration weapon of choice.
Lansdren
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 24 2010, 04:48 PM) *
I have a character who uses a silenced pistol with narcojet capsule rounds as his infiltration weapon of choice.



I cant say i'm fond of Narco, it can be resisted which means odds are you need two shots to put someone down which overflows into physical quite a lot.
sabs
I didn't see anything else that would work without being some weird thing.
I thought about slab, but damn slab is expensive per dose.
Yerameyahu
Even narco (capsules or darts) is plenty expensive.
Neraph
Speedballing Slab and Pixie Dust is the best I can think of for a nonlethal takedown that the target won't remember.
Yerameyahu
Did we ever decide a reasonable speed for Slab? Next Combat Turn, was it? 'Instant' is a little silly.
Neraph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 24 2010, 12:16 PM) *
Did we ever decide a reasonable speed for Slab? Next Combat Turn, was it? 'Instant' is a little silly.

Next CT is a good one. I'd go with that one.

Also, the Power I run it at is 8 - if you don't reduce it to 0 you take full effect. You may want to run it at 10 though.
naga-nuyen
Grab the Chemical gland with cyanide! Milk yourself in your down time and you have immediate force 6 venom on injection. Also if you look up the compounds for white star the fall into the allowed substance.....though it is the call of the GM for the final ruling!
Neraph
Nah, if you use a chemical gland, do it with Chimeric Creature's Cobra venom. That's like Power 12 right there.

EDIT: Yeah, Power 12 Physical damage, but 1 CT. It doesn't matter much at that point though - how many corpsec guards are ready and waiting for cobra bites?
naga-nuyen
Can you use the gland to produce awakened venom? That changes everything lol
Jaid
hmmm... slab really doesn't seem like it would be specifically designed to be all that fast acting. 1 combat turn (3 seconds) seems plenty generous for a medical situation imo.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Wasabi @ Aug 24 2010, 06:27 AM) *
I dont allow acid unless its in a glass container. Explosions like a smallarms cartridge going off would shatter glass in my game.


I'd point out that there are, in fact, plastics that are safe to store acids in.

Heck, reasonably pure Sulfuric acid can even be stored in metal containers.

Ooh... many industrial manufacturers store acids in powder form. I wonder how well acid powder would work in a capsule round? They'd suddenly get all flooded with liquid when inside a body.



-karma
Neraph
QUOTE (naga-nuyen @ Aug 24 2010, 11:38 AM) *
Can you use the gland to produce awakened venom? That changes everything lol

It's not Awakened - it's genetically modified.
naga-nuyen
K, i see using running wild genetic augmentation and cobra venom. Now for a player to get it for their chemical gland they would need to first get the chimeric cobra. Pricing that up now lol, thank you for the great idea!

Edit: it is about 700$ on today’s market for a Banded water cobra which ranks a .142 on the LD50 test (of the cobra the highest ranked is the Congo water cobra at .12...and he is ranked 10th) for today all you need is a license to keep the snake, and order it online...it ships delta! So starting character could get critter for 700 +400 fake license...will work up the gentic pricing now

Edit 2: Will modify original cobra price by the difference of what a Piranha cost today compared to what they cost in book. Today =75, in Book=250 which will be a multiplier of 3.333. So the cobra will cost about 2340 plus modifications

Last edit: Cost of a chermic Cobra with potent venom ability is 2340*3*.3 (for ability) =7,722$ keeping him around 12R. (12R gets you giant cat, dolphin, or mako shark....i am thinking that i would have an equal chance of getting an amped up snake compared to a mako!)

Question would you wave the dose the cost multiplier of the chemical gland due to having the venom sack of the snake? And what price would you put on cobra venom?
Yerameyahu
A capsule round of powdered acid wouldn't do anything. smile.gif They're not penetrating the clothing, let alone the skin.
sabs
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 24 2010, 08:27 PM) *
A capsule round of powdered acid wouldn't do anything. smile.gif They're not penetrating the clothing, let alone the skin.

What about Alternating rounds of acid and water capsules?
Yerameyahu
Haha, I knew someone would say that. Maybe? I dunno. biggrin.gif You'd have to hit the same 2cm spot at least twice in a row.

Personally, I'm happy to assume that pretty much *anything* can be safely loaded into capsule rounds; it's 2070.
crash2029
Chemistry is fun isn't it? I have a few ideas for capsule round payloads.

DMSO + Zen- Why cuff the sec guys when they are laying there tripping?
DMSO + Bliss- Spread the Joy.
Elemental Sodium- Is it hot in here?
DMSO + Succinylcholine- Stop! Runner time.
Kerosine- Try to stay away from open flame...
Pepper Punch- Crowd Control.
DMSO + KE IV- We aint fraid a no bugs!
Adhesive- Eew! Sticky!
KarmaInferno
Sodium hydroxide powder would cause caustic burns by just impacting and scattering on the target.

If the target gets wet, the effect is amplified. So if the target goes to wash the burning powder off...

smile.gif




-karma
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 24 2010, 09:32 PM) *
What about Alternating rounds of acid and water capsules?


It would be more effective to have an interior wall in the capsule, then have one half water and the other dehydrated acid.

Or make glass acid capsules that are slightly smaller than normal that are then encased in an ordinary sized plastic capsule.

Sure, the glass may shatter on launch but the plastic should hold together long enough to impact the victim.

***

Now how about liquid rocket fuel filled capsules in short bursts with every 3rd round being a tracer?
Wasabi
My fave anti-mage bullet is Capsule+DMSO/Longhaul

Seems harmless until they want to rest off their stun!


Correction: As Jaid points out later in this post "Rest" to recover stun doesn't have to be sleeping.
Jaid
just remember kids, you don't need DMSO if you are using a contact toxin (KE IV i'm looking at you!)
Dumori
QUOTE (Wasabi @ Aug 24 2010, 11:27 AM) *
Also of note is the secondary explosion rules. While only Ex-Ex ammo and such cause damage on a secondary explosion if someone has a clip of Ringu and gets hit by a fireball they had better hope their ammo doesnt cook off. The gooey mess can kill a fella!

This is why allcapsule clips should be hermetically sealed with and RDIF sensor in them to transmit if breached or such so you can throw the clip(s) away before they effect you unless the clip is loaded then you have issues.


QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 24 2010, 07:51 PM) *
I'd point out that there are, in fact, plastics that are safe to store acids in.

Heck, reasonably pure Sulfuric acid can even be stored in metal containers.

Ooh... many industrial manufacturers store acids in powder form. I wonder how well acid powder would work in a capsule round? They'd suddenly get all flooded with liquid when inside a body.



-karma

I'm guessing some thing like a glowstick the impact mixes the power with then diluent what ever it is. One coudl work out two inert liquids that react to make you acid and likely a gas. But I can't be bother to recall my chemisty I know one could do that for a base that arguable would be just as effective vs living targets.
Yerameyahu
Haha, I'm trying to imagine the situation where you want to inconvenience a mage, but not stop him in any way. biggrin.gif
Jaid
i suppose it could come into play theoretically. but that's beside the point.

long haul doesn't prevent you from resting, it prevents you from sleeping. you can still rest while you're awake.
Neraph
QUOTE (naga-nuyen @ Aug 24 2010, 02:20 PM) *
K, i see using running wild genetic augmentation and cobra venom. Now for a player to get it for their chemical gland they would need to first get the chimeric cobra. Pricing that up now lol, thank you for the great idea!

Edit: it is about 700$ on today’s market for a Banded water cobra which ranks a .142 on the LD50 test (of the cobra the highest ranked is the Congo water cobra at .12...and he is ranked 10th) for today all you need is a license to keep the snake, and order it online...it ships delta! So starting character could get critter for 700 +400 fake license...will work up the gentic pricing now

Edit 2: Will modify original cobra price by the difference of what a Piranha cost today compared to what they cost in book. Today =75, in Book=250 which will be a multiplier of 3.333. So the cobra will cost about 2340 plus modifications

Last edit: Cost of a chermic Cobra with potent venom ability is 2340*3*.3 (for ability) =7,722$ keeping him around 12R. (12R gets you giant cat, dolphin, or mako shark....i am thinking that i would have an equal chance of getting an amped up snake compared to a mako!)

Question would you wave the dose the cost multiplier of the chemical gland due to having the venom sack of the snake? And what price would you put on cobra venom?

There's nothing listed, but I'd like a genetically more virulent black mamba venom round... Bwahahaha! devil.gif
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 25 2010, 12:35 AM) *
just remember kids, you don't need DMSO if you are using a contact toxin (KE IV i'm looking at you!)


Metahumans have to ingest it. It's only contact vector when you're talkin' about bugs.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. cyber.gif

In other news: Slab capsules are my best friend.
Yerameyahu
… Why would you use it on anything except bugs? smile.gif
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 25 2010, 07:19 PM) *
… Why would you use it on anything except bugs? smile.gif


Exactly, It'd be a waste of a damn good bug killer!
Neraph
Because it's 8P damage is why, but only when it gets inside the metahuman body.
Yerameyahu
*shrug* I feel like there are better options. I guess that one is artificially cheap/available, but after you DMSO it…
Neraph
It's also street legal. 8P damage while maintaining street legality isn't anything to be sneezed at. Combine that with a Super Squirt and you're really lethal and completely legal.
Yerameyahu
Well. Made from legal components, I know you mean. wink.gif Hehe.
Mäx
I think i would personally go with Platypus venom, that's gotta to be one of the most embarrassing thinks to die to.
Also should be nicely confusing to people investigating, most would propaply send the test to be redone when they say that the victim died of Platypus venom in mid-town Seattle wink.gif
Neraph
Yeah. Two, maybe three doses of platypus venom should kill a person, whereas there are no recorded cases of people dying from it IRL to my knowledge.

In the same vein, would Black Mamba venom be like Power 14, -2 penetration, Physical damage, and every bite just be like 20 or 25 doses? Otherwise you'd need to have a Power 200-250 poison, since every bite can kill 20-25 grown men.
attilatheyeon
So um acids don't powder, that's bases. When you remove the liquid from an acid you get gas.
Tiralee
QUOTE
Grab the Chemical gland with cyanide! Milk yourself in your down time...

I cannot stop giggling at this.

Er, isn't platypus venom stupidly, horribly painful? As in designed by Satan to piss off God, but he saw the platypus and thought, "Buddy, you're gonna need this more than me" painful?
I've got no idea what damage codes would apply for it (Not a SR4er.) but according to nice people who've had to work with them (and recorded instances of accidential spurrage, google them), "chop off the arm" seemed like a valid idea. Linky: http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/kabernd...attack%201.html & http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/kabernd...20attack-2.html

That's got to be a distraction in a firefight.

Why on earth didn't they just use stonefish or ghoulfish venom? Boiling a foot to kill the protein-based venom seems extreme, but to a lot of people, that sounded great after the first 5 minutes of living with it.
Oh, wait, I think I know why after hitting up the wiki, regarding the Bearded GhoulFish:
QUOTE
"The venom consists of a mixture of proteolytic enzymes, including stonustoxin (a hemotoxin), trachynilysin (a neurotoxin), and cardioleputin (a cardiotoxin)"


I'd rule that a 4 compound mixer of pain and price the stuff out of the runner's reach.
Hmm, it's be easier to get crystal capsacin and use that.

How does 5 million scovelle units to the face sound?
"It sounds likeARRRRRRGH"

-Tir
Wasabi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 25 2010, 02:19 PM) *
… Why would you use it on anything except bugs? :)


Because with their Masking rolls it may not be reasonable to assume you can tell which are the bugs! :-)
Wasabi
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 25 2010, 01:33 PM) *
i suppose it could come into play theoretically. but that's beside the point.

long haul doesn't prevent you from resting, it prevents you from sleeping. you can still rest while you're awake.


Huh. Who knew?

I've amended my previous post to say Long Haul rest-denial no workie-workie. Thanks for pointing that out, Jaid!
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Wasabi @ Aug 26 2010, 12:26 PM) *
Because with their Masking rolls it may not be reasonable to assume you can tell which are the bugs! smile.gif


You don't need to assense to tell that it's a big ol' bug. Most of the ones that want to kill you outright look like bugs anyway.

And the ones that don't... Well, they're susceptible to breathtaker grenades. =D

Also, breathtaker + pepperpunch grenades are a great combo. Breathtaker out first. When the ones smart enough to hold their breath get hit with pepperpunch, they will (usually) gasp.
Mäx
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 26 2010, 02:49 PM) *
Also, breathtaker + pepperpunch grenades are a great combo.

Add in a tear-gas grenade and you got what my Sasha calls a "partymix" throwh all 3 into a room and nonoe should be walking out of that room. wink.gif
Yerameyahu
It's only one ingredient: ghoulfish venom. It just happens to be made of multiple things, just like your spit is made of multiple things. smile.gif
I'm sure the reason these aren't in the game is limited space, limited attention, and the fact that they're beyond rare and exotic.

See, I'm still wondering about that. How many doses of each are you putting in those grenades? If it's 1 dose each, there's no reason that should affect even one person, let alone a roomful. If it's like 12 doses each, there are so many cheaper ways.
Johnny B. Good
I always assumed that a single "dose" of breathtaker was enough for one grenade, since there doesn't seem to be any other form of delivery. It's also used by riot police, and if it's about 600 nY per grenade they would probably not use it, ever. I could see a mask with an inhaler working for single doses, but at that point you may as well just use chloroform.
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