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Doc Chase
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:36 PM) *
first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).


Looks like he divided it fine to me, otherwise it would've been 46 dice and not 26.
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 12:36 PM) *
I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.

Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.



With good RC, I can too. With no recoil comp (no stock, no tripod, etc), it takes an amazing shooter to put a round past the first three in anything he's trying to shoot at.
maeel
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:39 AM) *
Looks like he divided it fine to me, otherwise it would've been 46 dice and not 26.

true, i guess he didnt divide by range then.
sabs
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 05:36 PM) *
I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.

Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.


The real problem is that what the difference between a 3 skill and a 7 skill is not correctly reflected in the dicepools and bell curve.
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats

Doc Chase
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 04:42 PM) *
With good RC, I can too. With no recoil comp (no stock, no tripod, etc), it takes an amazing shooter to put a round past the first three in anything he's trying to shoot at.


Yeah, but bursting is a lot easier on the recoil than full auto, which is the source of my discomfort with this whole system. Police/military train to fire short bursts to maximize accuracy and stopping power - not a lot of folks get up after three rounds to center mass delivered at the same time. Full auto puts a lot of lead downrange, but after the fifth round leaves the chamber your barrel is already tracking way up and the rest of the time is overcompensating for barrel jump.
sabs
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:36 PM) *
first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).


40 / 2 = 20 in my math classes?
and I did divide by range
40 / 2 / 1 (short range) still equal to 20

What I missed on the extreme range example was

40 / 2 / 4 = 5 -4 = 1, so it's 7 dice, not 11. And it's still 11 dice if I have any kind of range ignorers like mag vision.


Doc Chase
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 05:44 PM) *
true, i guess he didnt divide by range then.


No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.

Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.

Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 12:45 PM) *
Yeah, but bursting is a lot easier on the recoil than full auto, which is the source of my discomfort with this whole system. Police/military train to fire short bursts to maximize accuracy and stopping power - not a lot of folks get up after three rounds to center mass delivered at the same time. Full auto puts a lot of lead downrange, but after the fifth round leaves the chamber your barrel is already tracking way up and the rest of the time is overcompensating for barrel jump.


That's what I was saying?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 04:49 PM) *
That's what I was saying?


No, that's what *I* was saying. See, it says my name there in the quote box and everything. biggrin.gif
sabs
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 05:48 PM) *
No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.

Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.

Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.


Only because Satellite weaponry has a Pilot 8, Targeting 8, OrbitalLaser AutosoftL: 3, for something like 19 dice to shoot for you. And that's still less dice than what he's proposing smile.gif
maeel
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 11:48 AM) *
No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.

Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.

Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.



yeah i realized that actually i made a mistake.

if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.
Yerameyahu
*shrug* I'm still more concerned that you can now use RC mods to get +6 DP for *single* shots.
Kruger
No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters put full auto on a target at 25m or so and nail most of the shots. But, at the same time, none of them would even think of trying the same thing at 200m. Ranged combat is incredibly hard to model in a role playing game because of the amount of calculations. 93 Games's Reflex System makes the best playable attempt at it I've seen and I'd be curious if anyone knows better ones. But even Reflex has a fair number of calculations and isn't perfect. Shadowrun is just massively imperfect. I think that may be that maeel is just trying to fix an unfixable system. But all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong when he said that the range modifiers maeel was suggesting didn't make sense.
maeel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 11:55 AM) *
*shrug* I'm still more concerned that you can now use RC mods to get +6 DP for *single* shots.



that would be a SA longarm weapon with stock, tripod and heavy barrel at point blank range. Sounds like a glass cannon...
Doc Chase
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 04:52 PM) *
yeah i realized that actually i made a mistake.

if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.


40/3=13.3, so we'll call it 13.

SK+A of 6 + 13 dice at short is ninteen dice, 13/4 is 3.25 so we'll call it 3, which means nine dice at extreme range if he's ignoring the modifier (which ain't tough to do).

Nine dice on an unmodded AK to hit something almost a klick away is still...off.
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 11:59 AM) *
No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters put full auto on a target at 25m or so and nail most of the shots. But, at the same time, none of them would even think of trying the same thing at 200m. Ranged combat is incredibly hard to model in a role playing game because of the amount of calculations. 93 Games's Reflex System makes the best playable attempt at it I've seen and I'd be curious if anyone knows better ones. But even Reflex has a fair number of calculations and isn't perfect. Shadowrun is just massively imperfect. I think that may be that maeel is just trying to fix an unfixable system. But all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong when he said that the range modifiers maeel was suggesting didn't make sense.


I guess we're arguing different parts of the equation then. I don't have problems with making full auto worse at farther ranges; I do have a problem with making it better at short. I mean, I agree that there are some people that can do amazing things at short range. But the average ganger certainly can't
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 04:59 PM) *
No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters


Right there. Really good shooters. This system and the range modifiers put an amount of dice on the range scales that borders on retarded, and that's for an average joe. I've got decent training, enough to probably be able to qualify at a police academy and I'm not gonna put most shots on a target at 25 rockin' and a rollin'. Under this system, not only would I be able to rock 'n roll with no problems, I would put damn near 100% of the shots I fire on an unmodified AK (which has horrible muzzle climb) on a target at 50 meters (19 dice) and about 70% on target at 100 meters (12 dice).

QUOTE
all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong


I don't like you anymore. sleepy.gif
maeel
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 11:28 AM) *
Why is range being counted twice?

skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2

The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)

a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.

That seems like crazy dice.



under the current system you would have:

3 + 3 + (-9) at 15 DV for short

and

3 + 3 + (-9) + (-3) at 15 DV


but lets calculate that for the rule 3 rounds = 1dice:

3 + 3 + 1 + 13 = 17 at DV 6 for short

3 + 3 + (-4) + 3 = 5 at DV for extreme

maybe thats better



Yerameyahu
You mean, sounds like a steel cannon. smile.gif You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.

Did you take into account the use of Edge?
Kruger
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 09:07 AM) *
I don't like you anymore. sleepy.gif
You weren't totally wrong. I don't know or care enough about 4e off the top of my head to argue the total mechanic. You are probably right that his rules don't work. I was just referring to his scalable bonuses/penalties at range. In my experience, there should be nothing except penalties at long range, heh. I don't care how many rounds you put downrange at Extreme. Sure, I've hit targets at 1800m with a burst from a .50 before, and pretty consistently. But those targets also weren't moving and I had the benefit of a tripod mount and a known distance to set the sights at.

Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.
maeel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 12:09 PM) *
You mean, sounds like a steel cannon. smile.gif You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.

Did you take into account the use of Edge?



I dont understand the PB part.

And no, i didnt consider edge
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 05:15 PM) *
You weren't totally wrong. I don't know or care enough about 4e off the top of my head to argue the total mechanic. You are probably right that his rules don't work. I was just referring to his scalable bonuses/penalties at range. In my experience, there should be nothing except penalties at long range, heh. I don't care how many rounds you put downrange at Extreme. Sure, I've hit targets at 1800m with a burst from a .50 before, and pretty consistently. But those targets also weren't moving and I had the benefit of a tripod mount and a known distance to set the sights at.

Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.


You still broke my heart. sleepy.gif

But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me. nyahnyah.gif

@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 01:00 PM) *
that would be a SA longarm weapon with stock, tripod and heavy barrel at point blank range. Sounds like a glass cannon...


Presumably, recoil compensation for most things is now a dice pool bonus and you're now giving a recoil bonus to suppressors.

The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.

Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)

5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation

Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.

Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.
maeel
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 12:20 PM) *
You still broke my heart. sleepy.gif

But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me. nyahnyah.gif

@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.



actually i changed some of the recoil mods so that they dont provide recoil compensation but extra dice instead.

now i have come up with an alternate idea,brb...
Yerameyahu
… We know. That's the point. biggrin.gif You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 12:44 PM) *
The real problem is that what the difference between a 3 skill and a 7 skill is not correctly reflected in the dicepools and bell curve.
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats


It's a poor rule, in my opinion, for combat tests. For the most part it will cause combat to become excessively lethal or make it excessively difficult to even shoot someone. Rather, combat becomes even more one sided unless weapon skills roughly match dodge skills and the pool isn't so large that you're guaranteed to get your cap every time.
Kruger
Right off the bat, you know that any modern combat system that requires a dodge mechanic is broken, heh. You don't dodge incoming fire. You just try and make sure that the other guy has an even harder time hitting you than he would normally.
maeel
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 26 2010, 12:30 PM) *
Presumably, recoil compensation for most things is now a dice pool bonus and you're now giving a recoil bonus to suppressors.

The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.

Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)

5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation

Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.

Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.

nope 1 point recoil compensation is not + 1 dice. i changed some recoil mods from providing recoil compensation to providing dice, the idea is that in IRL sniper rifles almost always have bipods, and they dont have it for recoil compensation smile.gif
maeel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 12:33 PM) *
… We know. That's the point. biggrin.gif You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.



only some of them and i always explained why....
Yerameyahu
So the solution is to make them even more sniper-y? smile.gif In my games, you have to fire guns properly. AR in one hand has a penalty (optional rule in Arsenal); sniper rifle unbraced has a penalty (house rule by extension); heavy weapons unbraced causes Stun damage (unless you're huge; optional rule in Arsenal). I think this is a better and more rules-consistent way of addressing your very valid point.

I know you explained why, but the issue still stands. I'm saying that explanation isn't good enough for making *reactive*, penalty-limiting mods into *proactive*, DP-buffing mods.
sabs
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 06:41 PM) *
Right off the bat, you know that any modern combat system that requires a dodge mechanic is broken, heh. You don't dodge incoming fire. You just try and make sure that the other guy has an even harder time hitting you than he would normally.


There should be evasive maneuvers perhaps.
A true bad-ass could in melee/unarmed range do horrible things to someone with a gun, especially one not trained in melee/unarmed as well.

The Dodge skill doesn't really make sense in dealing with firearms. But there you have it.

Evasive Maneuvers -2 dp
Diving for Cover: Reaction+appropriate athletics roll opposed their reaction+firearms skill net hit = you get the cover available (partial, full, none if you're in the middle of an empty room)
Gymnastics Dodging: net hits -DP, Max = Gymnastics Rating
Full Defense: -1 DP per IP given up for evasive maneuvers. (You move fast, you're hard to track)

So lets say I'm a Street Sam with 3ip, facing a room full of ganger death.
I go evasive maneuvers, I go full defense and dedicate 2 of my 3 IP for evading. Anyone trying to hit me has a -4DP

Either I'm in heavy armor and my plan is to take the hits and shoot back, or I'm planning on going first, and killing the lot of them before they get to shoot at me.

That seems fair smile.gif

StealthSigma
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 01:42 PM) *
nope 1 point recoil compensation is not + 1 dice. i changed some recoil mods from providing recoil compensation to providing dice, the idea is that in IRL sniper rifles almost always have bipods, and they dont have it for recoil compensation smile.gif


Yes, yes it is according to what you wrote, except for one recoil compensator.

QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation they offer one additional dice.


1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.


1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.


2 recoil compensation now equals +2 dice

QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.


6 recoil compensation now equals +3 dice

QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Stock: a rigid or employed folding stock stabilizes the weapon against the shooter shoulder, it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.


1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation.


0 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

--

Beyond that, each attack in the combat turn automatically adds a cumulative -1 dice pool recoil modifier. Either normal recoil compensation applies and all the other modifications that affect that still affect that, or you have a situation where the dual-wielding gunfu phys adept with 4 IPs is eating a -8 recoil modifier on each gun for a -16 for the last pair of shots. Regardless, from your list of recoil compensators that give bonus dice instead, I can +4 dice without using a bipod.

But lets look at a 3agi 3pistol ganger that's hopped up on some drugs that give him an extra initiative pass. He's thinking he's badass and is gunfuing it up. His first attack is at 1 dice / 1 dice (-1 recoil on each weapon plus -2 from using an off-hand weapon since he isn't ambidextrous). He could fire 6 more shots and none of them have a chance in hell of hitting. Let's say the same ganger isn't dual wielding. His first attack will be at 5 dice, and his last attack at 2 dice.

You've tried to make full auto more useful and in turn significantly hurt other methods of firearm combat.
maeel
ok new try:

CODE
Firing modes:

SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed

Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 3 rounds fired equal +1DV. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down).  A full burst generates a recoil of -3 multiplied by range modifier.
Recoil compensation applies.

Suppressive Fire: remains almost the same except that 40 rounds are used and an area of up to 40 meters width and 2 meters height is covered. The result of the number of bullets divided by the meters width is the threshold for the dodge test.   Any successes generated by the attacker increase the DV by 1 per two net hits.


Range modifier table:
short      : +1 1W6
medium  : - 2W6
long       : -3W6
extreme : -4W6

Recoilmods:
The following recoil modifications and accessories have changed.

Heavy barrel:  first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation the offer one additional dice.
Sniper rifles already have heavy barrels installed by default and do not get additional benefits.

Foregrip:  A foregrip helps  holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.

Bipod:  When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.


Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation

Maximum Fire Rate:  A normal weapon cannot fire more than 40 rounds per Combat turn.
Yerameyahu
Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. smile.gif Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.

I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help. smile.gif
sabs
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 07:11 PM) *
Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. smile.gif Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G22/G23.

I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help. smile.gif


Technically Machine pistols are not bigger than heavy pistols smile.gif so they don't get the -3

As for SMG's. The Masad uses a stock on their Uzis when they're trying to actually be able to hit people wink.gif

Doc Chase
It also further forces ranges to short.

A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.

All right.

So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).
Yerameyahu
sabs, SR4A p311 says that Machine Pistols are bigger than Heavy Pistols, which are bigger than Light Pistols.

I'm not saying a stock isn't a good idea, which is why they provide RC. biggrin.gif
maeel
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 01:16 PM) *
It also further forces ranges to short.

A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.

All right.

So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).



Is that a "yes thats better??" love.gif
maeel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 01:11 PM) *
Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. smile.gif Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.

I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help. smile.gif


wuff, i know, wuff
maeel
i removed the stock section, so is everybody happy now?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 07:22 PM) *
Is that a "yes thats better??" love.gif


It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.

Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.

sabs
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 07:41 PM) *
It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.

Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.

What he drops his current assault rifle and picks up his second one slung over the other shoulder and fires another 40 bullets.
maeel
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 01:41 PM) *
It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.

Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.



well thats actually intentional, plus the sammie could change clip, throw a grenade, maneuver, whatever.....
Doc Chase
QUOTE (maeel @ Aug 26 2010, 07:53 PM) *
well thats actually intentional, plus the sammie could change clip, throw a grenade, maneuver, whatever.....


Except if he's got 3 IP's, he spends a Simple to reload and now has the rest of that pass and the next to twiddle his thumbs. Very quickly, as he's fast.

I like the turn bullet cap, but I'd say if you want to keep it then I'd make the full auto take the entire Combat Turn. That leaves the focus on short bursts unless he's got four guys or a heavily armored mook to drop.
sabs
If Full Auto took a full round, I'd be okay with it being overpowered just a little.

Of course, this means Lonestar can use full auto. Ouch.
Cover is your friend.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 03:01 PM) *
If Full Auto took a full round, I'd be okay with it being overpowered just a little.


I'm not. It makes extra IPs fairly pointless for the gunner.
maeel
See the original idea i had, was to limit all actions to two simple action per action phase or one complex action per combat turn, that would also limit those pesky mages...

so, yeah with pleasure!

on the other hand, if your AK features a drum, you use 2IPs for 2 20 round full bursts doing 12DV each...
Doc Chase
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 26 2010, 08:08 PM) *
I'm not. It makes extra IPs fairly pointless for the gunner.


Otherwise he has the capability of firing 120 rounds downrange in three seconds, which I don't think even an HVAR is capable of.
sabs
Nah.
The Extra IP gunner doesn't full auto.

he does 4 short bursts.
Which do you prefer:

1 full turn action at skill+attrb+20/range+range+mods?
call it 36 some odd dice at DV 6?
effictive dv is going to be 12 - 3 or 4. So dv of 14 roughly.
or, 4 actions
skill+attrb+3/range+range+mods
call it 20 dice at dv 9?
effective dv being ~2 or 3 + 9 so 11 or 12.
If you're willing to take the dicepool modifiers for doing two burst fires a round.
You could be throwing 8 dv 9 attacks a round,c ompaerd to the one dv ~14

Only sadness is.. your 5 agility 3 dodge face is gonna die.
Heck, my Troll monstrosity might actually die
6 agility+5 gymnastics+1 skill recorder+1 neo-eop+1synthcardium I'm only throwing together 15 dice or so for dodging.
He's got 12 net hits, I have 5, I drop him down to 13dv. Now, I have 18 points of armor, so it's all stun. (thank god)
18 armor + 9 body + 3 from bonelacing. 30 dice to soak, I soak 10, so I take 3dv. My platetelet factory turns those 3dv into 2dv and my trauma dampener turns that into 1dv. Go go munchkin Troll.

But that's a troll with orthoskin, bone lacing, trauma dampeners, platelet factory, form fitting full body armor, a chameleon suit on top of that, gel packs and a full set of PPP gear.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 26 2010, 03:19 PM) *
Heck, my Troll monstrosity might actually die


The reason god invented the Barrett Model 121 and APDS ammo.
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