Well, given that it only takes a little Detect Hidden Nodes test, you shouldn't feel *too* hidden. Yes, the Matrix 2.0 auto-mesh in many ways makes no sense. It's better to ignore it.

If you want to be really hidden, turn the damn thing off

The auto-mesh makes perfect sense from a manufacturer's standpoint.
I think of hidden as... "I want to walk the street without getting hit by ads for every store, and without getting hit upon by every Casanova/Lolita who is LF* while walking down the street. It's not really about hiding who you are. It's the 2072 equivalent of walking with your head down, staring at the ground and not making eye contact with anyone.

IIRC from fluff, it goes as follows:

Active: "Coupons on baclava? I love baclava!"
Passive: "No thank you, I don't want to hear about baclava's crispier, flakier crust."
Hidden: *doesn't answer doorbell*

edit: Is it bad I look at the title of this thread and read it as 'Signal Ranting'?

Unwired also has private networks, but with no rules: why should runners use that? I would have it work a bit like slaving: hacking requires a physical connection, a spoofed accessID (but how to learn the accessID of one of the network nodes?), or to go through a gateway. Just not count the +2 threshold to hacking, as there is no master node.

These are the kinds of things you just have to deal with. There's a reason for encryption and Sniffers and Capture/Intercept actions, etc. Remember that the GM can dial the Matrix complexity up or down to suit what the players want to deal with.

@Traul
I would say it's an interpretation and not "hand waving" lol. I agree that RAW does not mention signal range at all when it talks about detecting a hidden node that you know the approximate physical location for. I concede it actually is pretty confusing the more i read the whole matrix section. So there are 2 options.

1. You believe there is no limit.
Assuming this to be true, then we have to agree that there is nothing special about LOS when it comes to scans....you could perform a scan with your commlink having no idea what your visual cortex is looking at...just use a manual interface. This means that if you know a johnson is in the next room over, you can scan him using the EW+scan(4) test but you could do the same thing if your johnson is at a cafe in japan that you know the global coordinates of. This means you are using the matrix to locate a target when you are using the EW+scan(4) test.

2. There is a limit.
This has to mean you are not using the matrix to scan, but you are directly looking for wireless signals with the radio hardware of your commlink. So then you just have to decide if the limit is all devices which are in your signal range, all devices whose signal range you're in signal range, or you have to be in mutual signal range.
I don't see why this would be fundamentally different than doing the extended test version of EW+scan(15, 1 combat turn). It's the same skill...you just don't know the location of the node in mutual signal range so you have to scan all areas which are available to you and this takes time as opposed to the complex action of EW+scan(4). So it seems to me that the limits would be the same: mutual signal range. So basically, you can't find a hidden node without it also being possible for that node to find you....which makes sense for balance.

So if we believe like you do that because the rules don't explicitly give a range for EW+Scan(4) test, then stating that the range is your own commlinks signal range is just as handwavy as saying that it is the hidden nodes signal range. Either there is no range for that test at all, or it's just the same test as EW+Scan(15,1combat turn), but the extended test just represents the fact that you're trying out several different areas and that takes time....and then the limit for EW+scan(4) test is mutual signal range.

I feel it's the latter because on pg 230 of SR4A under the data search action they say "For example, use Data Search+ Scan (extended test) to find all of the wireless smartlinks in Signal range". I feel this is the test that uses the matrix....here you are "pinging" all those smartlink nodes. You send out the signal via Wifi to all the nodes in your signal range, and then you listen for responses sent through the matrix back to you and then filter out the ones that are smartlinks.

Oi Inca,

You contradict yourself at the bottom of your last post. A smartlink only has a signal of 1 or mabe even 0 so you would not be able to scan for them ever. Even if they were within range of a matrix router or other device they have a 1 or 0 signal. How does that work? What I have posted is the way RAW works. You can disagree all you want and play it how you want. But trying to apply real world technologies to SR Matrix rules rarely works.

They have 1; that's 40m.

Oi CHums,

Here is another analogy for you. Lets first forget about Central Home Nodes and slaving for a moment.

If I was standing in the street and scanned the house in front of me I could pick up the Oven, Dishwasher, A.C. a couple of game consoles, Trideo, lights and so forth. But unless I am standing in the living room or within "Mutual Signal Range", I could not command any of those devices. Thats RAW.

Actually that's not entirely true.
A Smart link has a signal rating of 1 by default. And really, that's just.. the whole thing is a nightmare of badly thought out rules and mechanics.

The Smart Links don't go through the matrix. They go from your gun, to your commlink directly, do not pass go. They are part of your PAN. So really, you cannot be using the matrix to find them.
Either things have to be in mutual signal range, or connected via a matrix route. You can't have some weird in between.

Otherwise. I put together my signal 9 commlink, and I find every smartgun in Seattle and most of Tir.

That's just.. grrrr silly

Yeah, but that's WEIRD

Well… maybe. Does your commlink suck? Per Unwired, a fridge has signal 3 (yes, that's probably too high, but hey). So, if you're within range to detect it, but not mutual signal range, you have a cruddy commlink.

So, yes, there are circumstances in which you can hear devices that you can't talk to, but they're kinda edge cases.

Indeed, sabs. Like I said, you have to exercise some GM power over the Matrix rules to have them work reasonably. Don't be afraid to do so.

Well sure. The fridge has that kinda signal so it can call the grocery store to restock the NERPS when you run out. That way you can play on the Shadowrun MMO all night!

Oi Yama,

II think you and I are on the same page.Even if we were in the Tir waltzing around the woods with no matrix routers If you scanned for the Smart Links you could find them. You might not be able to shut them down, unless you were in "Mutual Signal Range" but you could find them.

Also what about Telematic Infrastructure from Unwired. They continually scan for hidden nodes and wireless transmission. On a run you wuld be in hidden mode and have your Signal as low as you could but the TI system is scanning the whole area encompassed by its Signal Rating and will find you after a certain number of minutes with purchased successes.

Oi Yama,

I was just trying to be plain with the Signal Rating and picking up nodes with a lesser rating. Obviously a Comm is going to have at leats a 2 which is how ever many mts. So yes you could interact with the Items in the house.

Wait, what? You can't scan for smartlinks if you're out of *their* range. I meant that you can find things *louder* than you. It's not RADAR, you can't pick up 'quieter' nodes if you're out of their range.

Yes, TI is badass and problematic.

Oi Yama,

DOH. You can. It's not radar it's a radio scanner. It picks up the wirelss transmission of the device. You can scan for things with a lesser Signal Strength than your own. Please show me in RAW where it says you can't. And that quote about mutual Signal range is only for two way communication. Radar is something completely different.

You don't think that finding the smartlink and getting it to tell you it's a smart link isn't 2 way communication?
You're not bouncing signal off the smartlink and getting a ping back.. like radar. It's like a Radio. If you're radio is too far away from the signal source, you can't pick it up.

Seriously. I don't even know how to respond to the idea that you can hear things you can't hear.

Oi Chums,

Show me RAW.

Oi,

It is still broadcasting is it not? It s still part of the users PAN is it not? Why would I not be able to pick up it' wirelss transmission? Radar and radio scanners are totalydifferent things. These devices are transmitting radio frequencies. You can play it how you will. SHow me RAW.

SR4A, p222: Signal Ranges. Sigh. Next you'll be asking where it says that cars are immune to diseases.

What exactly do you think 'wireless transmissions' are? That's the Signal rating! Signal has a maximum range. Outside that, there's no more wireless transmissions to pick up, man.

Oi,
That was unfair. I have reasonable arguments. My next question would be hpw the hell does a Satelite links work then? Are we in mutual signal range?

Oi,

But if I am scanning a 4 KM radius why would I not be able to pick up transmitting dveices in that area? Assuming they are in active mode?

YES! You use a satellite uplink. Jesus.

Here:
Sniffer: "You eavesdrop on wireless traffic going to and from a device. You must be within the device’s Signal range to capture the traffic." SR4A, p229.

Because you're *not* scanning a 4km radius.

Oi,

SR 4 A pg 222 is about muitual Signal Range and TWO WAY communication. I can see there is a device broadcasting in my signal strenght area. I just can't get it to do anything. I can even eavsedrop on the transmission. With that I would be able to determine what kind of device it is. I can not however have it do anyting becasue we are not in mutual sigal range.

Oww.. I think my brain just exploded from reading that sentence.

No. The table on p222 is Signal range, period; not 'mutual'.

No. You can't see if there is a device broadcasting in *your* Signal range.

No. You can't eavesdrop using *your* Signal range. You eavesdrop using *their* Signal range.

I even quoted the RAW you begged for, Nexus hound.

Oi,

PG 229 Detect Active/ Passive Wireless Nodes

You automatically find all nodes that are within Signal Range if they are in Active or Passive mode. Who's signal range yours or theirs? And as for eaqvesdropping you are correct we must be in mutual signal range thank you for that.

Oi,
How then can yuou ever hack a Smartlink directly without being within 3 mt. of the device? I understand we could spoof the link but what about the Smart Link.

Logic. You detect nodes either directly (their Signal range, because it's totally impossible to detect something *directly* that's out of range) or via the Matrix (in which case, your Signal is the limit on the scope of the search).

Technically, I don't think you need mutual Signal for eavesdropping. You just need to be in *their* range; again, like hearing a shouting person.

Smartlinks have a Signal of 1 (40m).

Just so we're both on the same page. Telling me something is RAW and not showing me the R isn't helping.

If you're saying that your signal rating makes you hear better instead of talk louder, please explain that either through quoting the RAW or explaining the logic.

Are you saying with a high enough signal you can eavesdrop on the transmission of a node that can't talk to your computer because it's signal strength is too weak?

I was unaware that someone could. It was my impression that they had to hack the node with the PAN, giving them control over the PAN and the slaved nodes, such as the smartlink.

If someone is running a small one-on-one connection between the smartgun and a amrtlinked cybereye, and I wanted to cause havok, I'd go with jamming.

See I always played that the node with your PAN WAS your commlink.

It is.

And you *can* hack a smartgun directly. It's an option, with different pros and cons compared to hacking their commlink. It won't work if the smartgun is slaved, of course, and it probably should be.

I typoed and was too slow to fix it. My bad (again). I should go back to bed.

Oi Chums,

All I am saying is that you can, using a Scanner program pick up wirelss transmissions of broadcasting devices that are within your signal range. I am not saying you can hack any of these devices.You absolutely must be in mutual signal range for that to happen. I was wrong about eavesdropping. It is very specific about Mutual Signal Range it that case. And as far as the Smart Links go, you should have it slaved to your Comlink just so that very thing can not happen. You would need to spoof the Smart Link after having found the Links Acess I.D..

I don't think I was clear on the Sat Link. I guess I was asking what is the Sig rating on one and how far up are sattelites in orbit? Are we in mutual signal range?

I would assume that some Smartlinks are Cyberware devices giving them a signal rating of 0? Or Headware giving it a Sig of 2?

If you can detect it, then why on earth could you not hack it?? If you can do one then you can do the other..... The only case that it makes sense that maybe you can detect but not hack is if you are inside of THEIR signal range but they are not in YOUR signal range.
The sections where it talks about simply being within Signal range, and not mutual signal range must refer to only cases where both devices are connected to the matrix, because then it's not device-to-device communication....this means you broadcast a query out on Wifi, and get a response back through the matrix.

SR4A p.222
"When two devices are within the range of the lowest Signal rating of the two, they are
said to be in mutual Signal range; this is required for direct device-to device
communication and for other applications."

This is RAW and it says that mutual signal range is required for any device to device communications. The only way my device could find out if the johnson i'm seeing before me had a commlink is for his commlink to "tell" my commlink where it is. This is device to device communication....so it's pretty clear cut.
If my commlink simply picks up an EM wave...it really has no way of knowing which direction that wave came from....that's just against the laws of physics. So maybe my commlink could tell me that it's picking up some form of EM waves....but it can't tell me where they're coming from. Now you could say that maybe the commlink is constantly broadcasting it's GPS coordinates.... even in hidden mode. But then i'd just design a commlink which only sends GPS coordinates when properly queried...and that would be an even better way of staying hidden....so obviously hidden mode is not going to broadcast a constant stream of GPS coordinates and will only broadcast gps to nodes which properly query it to...which is direct device-to-device communication and requires mutual signal range.

There's RAW for you.

Oi Chums,

Thanks.

What I'm hearing you say is that if you have a large signal range and it has a small signal range you can use a Scanner program to pick up it's wireless transmissions.

So, if Signal range is volume, you have a large volume and it has a small volume your large volume helps you pick up it's small volume transmissions.

That clearly doesn't work.

So, what you must be saying is that Signal Range is your ability to hear clearly.

As a result, turning down your Signal Range is simply turning down your ability to hear, which I could see as being completely useless.

It also means that Zurich Orbital Habitat, with devices that have incredible signal ranges are the holders to the keys of all information. I could see why corps would want arcologies. It's a way to get the entire enclave inside a faraday cage.

Using a *Sniffer* program, you can pick up wireless transmissions within *their* Signal ranges, not yours. You cannot, under any circumstances, get wireless transmissions outside of a device's Signal range.

When you use a Sat Link, you are in mutual signal range with that satellite, yes. Range depends on the satellite (geostationary or LEO), but it doesn't matter too much: using the Sat Link, you have an uplink, period. For the purposes of Jamming (AFAIK), they have a signal of 8.

When we say 'smartlink', we mean 'smartgun system' in this context. Smartlink is a vision/visual sensor enhancement; you might as well talk about hacking the zoom on the camera (instead of the camera itself).

Oi Chums,

Telematics Infrastructure is an example of what I am talking about. TI will automatically detect and report any wireless device that enters it's coverage area that is operating in active or passive mode (pg. 62 UW). If you can not pick up low signal devices that are broadcasting in a "Coverage Area" how would this sytem work?

Sat link works just like it does in RL. The device on the ground has to have a giant signal range....enough to reach the satellite...and the satellite has to have enough signal range to reach the ground. The only difference is that broadcast isn't in a dome shape...it's a focused beam of signal.

TI follows all the same rules as normal. It simply constantly, automatically tries to do so. In no way does it break the laws of physics by directly 'scanning' nodes that it can't possibly 'hear'. It *could* transmit a general 'please check in via the Matrix' request, but it wouldn't have an easy way of ensuring devices complied without *mutual signal range* to know that they're there in the first place.

From Unwired, pg 62:
In short, an area is saturated with antennas that are listening and communicating with each other. Put an RFID tag every 20 feet or so capable of talking to other RFID tags and it's easy to pick up low signal devices that are broadcasting.

Oi Chums,

Darn work always getting in the way of SR.

So here is another scenario. Say I am in an enclosed football stadium with the lights off. I am in the center of the feild with my eyes closed. My commlink is on with a signal rating of 3 and I have set my Scan prog to continually scan the area covered by my signal range. Someone comes in and puts a toaster in one of the end zones. The toaster has a signal rating of 0 and is broadcasting 'I am a toaster, how would you like your english muffin toasted?" There are no other electronic devices in the stadium to route the signal to me. I could not pick up that broadcasted signal?

I understand that Matrix topography and meat world topography are not the same so I would not know which end zone the toaster was in but I think I would know there was one there.

Where I am losing you guys is that my signal rating includes broadcasting as well as receiving. Why can I not pick up signals, regardless of how weak or strong, at the extent of my range?

I understand also that to actually direct the toaster to toast my english muffin only slightyl I would ave to be in mutual signal range. In this case 3 mt.

No, you couldn't detect a Signal 0 device. Signal rating refers *only* to broadcast power (and from power, range). Your Signal rating has absolutely nothing at all to do with your ability to *receive* signals.

Because I'm crazy, I'm going to try the 'hearing' metaphor one more time. If you're in the middle of the field shouting (high Signal), why would that allow you to hear people whispering (low Signal) within range of your shout?

Oi,

Then why would a jammer, wich affects Signal rating, keep you from sendig or receiving information?

A Jammer is you setting off an air horn to stop people from whispering to each other. Have you ever been in a noisy bar and had trouble conversing? You have to shout (higher Signal) to overcome the noise (Jamming).

Oi,

Then what part of your comlink covers receiving? I understand your analogy. It does make sense. I just disagree.
Again what part of your com receives data and why is that not a sperate stat for the device?