Uh what?
You need either mutual signal range, or it's matrix ID in order to conect.

Do you not?

See i think that's a mis-interpretation of the rules on your part .... The only way you could tell what mode someone is running on is to take a "Detect active/passive wireless nodes (system)" free action p.229 SR4A or to initiate a "detect hidden node (scan)" complex action. This could be done by an NPC or a drone/agent. That means you would have to put an agent which had the electronic warfare autosoft installed on every devices node which you wished to serve as a surveillance device.
You could also detect a persona through the matrix and then you'd have to run a successful trace program on them which would be an extended test.
That's why mutual signal range is so important to be able to detect nodes....it's not like once you're PAN is hooked linked to the matrix anybody can see where the physical location of your commlink is.

"You attempt to locate a hidden node. You must be aware of the node,
or at least have a good guess of where the device should be (for example,
if your commlink is not detecting a node for Mr. Johnson but
you are pretty sure he has a PAN, or when you can see the security
drone but it is operating in Hidden mode). To find the node, make a
Electronic Warfare + Scan (4) Test."

There is no mention of signal here. Mutual signal range is the limit when you are blindly scanning for all hidden nodes in an area.

so I can scan for a node a 100 miles away?

Yes, if you have its GPS coordinates. How did you get them in the first place?

Ya, you could have a little transceiver with a small signal range ...but if it has wireless capabilities it could potentially still be detected by close-by scanning nodes. The fool-proof way would be to run an actual wire between all members of the team. Now you could have a micro-transceiver with a very small signal range and create the little mutual signal bubble for the team....but then you couldn't share AR over lays, maps...text messages....tac-net capabilities like you could by having your commlinks going. That's the whole advantage that 4e brought with AR....you could meta-game and not be really meta-gaming.....so unless you don't enforce these types of details....I like to keep communication between group members as close to the whole free/simple/complex action as possible. So if you could share AR with a teammate, pointing to a location on a shared map is not even a free action because it's just a thought, not even a spoken word.....but without AR....pointing at a paper map and saying meet me on the other side would use up a free action and you couldn't pop out a clip until next IP for example.

Snrk. Don't forget common sense, guys.

Oh, Inca, I agree. I'd never use a micro-trans, because that's why god made commlinks. I'm just pointing out that's it's not an outlandish idea to have low-Signal devices, and I don't see that "HUGE advantage" you mention.

Ya but if it's the difference between smoking someone or getting fragged....then following RAW really keeps the arguments to a minimum....especially when it's pretty clear cut in RAW with things like what's a free -action, what's a simple action etc....

The difference between transceivers and commlinks is that you're whole life-story and bio-metric information isn't stored on a transceiver ...but it is in your commlink so commlinks in 2072 become almost like what drivers licenses are today ...and i don't have that much freedom to mess with my drivers licence. There's lot's of low signal devices, but it wouldn't behoove corporations to allow commlinks to carry a low signal...especially when you can basically hack into all their little dirty secrets with the software you might have on that little device.

I guess? I think someone pointed out that you can simply have a set of separate signal devices form 0-6, and route your comm through them as needed. If the sticking point for you is the action economy (ugh, what a distasteful D&D concept), then GM-fiat that changing signal is a simple action. The point is that if it's something they absolutely can do in the rules, there's no great reason to make it annoying. Especially if it's something that devices in 2010 can easily do.

Commlinks are not your driver's license. They're your iPhone.

And you should thank god that Apple doesn't have extra-territoriality and a standing army.......yet

I wish. Anyway. For runners, commlinks are your *jailbroken* iPhone. You have utter control.

Put the agent on the node the devices are slaved to.

Think "spider" only replacing "building" with "neighborhood".

Real Shadowrunners run Android. (Kangerade FTW)

No, because they want their gear to be top of the line and functional. Let's not get into it, though. Android is struggling enough without you characterizing their customers as dangerously psychopathic criminal mercenaries.

Real shadowrunners run butterflies.

Tonight in San Jose News...

Militia sympathetic to Google opened fire on an Apple Security Convoy in downtown San Jose. The firefight lasted for hours, as officers of SanJose Protection Inc, watched on helplessly. The only civilian casualty was David Copper of MountainView Estates, a citizen of Cisco Corp.
[Picture shows dozens of dead bodies on the ground.. some of them children]

Google has officially denounced the act, as rogue activity. A Mr Nathan Johnson was fired from Google today as a result of the incident.
Unconfirmed rumors state that the new ILink prototype, which was being transported by the convoy, was the intended target of the daring daylight raid.

When asked to comment, Google Representative had this to say:
"Why would we try to steal the ILink.. our newest Android Commlink, the Phoenix Rising 7000 (manufactured by Vaio) can actually run more than 1 agent at a time, unlike the ILink."

More news at 11.

That gives me a shadowrun idea. I guess I could make changing your signal rating of your off-the-shelf un-modified commlink just a simple action. Then what my players would start doing is using their leadership skills and underground connections to start a really hip rebel trend in seattle called "don't snitch...keep it tight"....and it's all about keeping your signal rating really tight and close to you....cuz you're not breaking the law....you're not running hidden. Then once enough people catch on to that hip trend, my players would just walk around seattle virtually undetected because KE can't get up in every single citizen's grill to be close enough just to read their SIN. You don't know my players...they're freaking geniuses....that's why i gotta keep stuff structured and lay down the law.

Yeah, 'Do No Evil'?

Well. So, in summary: adjustable signal certainly possible; you can flat out allow it, require a mod test or hardware upgrade, or you can disallow it for dramatic reasons. YMMV, house rules are your friend.

It's "Do No Evil"
not
"Do Not Subcontract Evil out to expendable, deniable assets"

Ya...i have nothing against making it a mod that you can buy at character creation....it just has to cost a little extra. It makes a runner just a little bit smarter than the guy who didn't pay the nuyen cuz he didn't think ahead. How many hackers have I had to regretfully tell them in the middle of a run that they never purchased the hot sim mod for their sim module. What's the point of purchasing it at creation if later on the GM just says...oh yea....let's just say you have it. It just discourages thinking ahead and being clever.

It also punishes players who many not know all the cool little widgets and tricks to certain character types.
There's a ton of rules. Hackers have to consider: Commlinks, commlink mods, software, software options, cyberware, bioware, nanoware, Agents, Worms, etc..

Ya...for new players...but not experienced ones.

Players *should* be punished for that, and are, in a thousand ways. This little tweak is a drop in the ocean.

I don't see it as punishing players. You learn something new, you have your character do something to take advantage of that knowledge, your character gets better.

Oi Chums,

I am surprised at the number of posts that this topic got. I would like to say that I have not had time to read through all the posts completely but a few things stood out in particular.

Inca you continually refer to off-the shelf conmlinks. Since when does any hacker worth his code use off the shelf products?

Second, Signal rating is definitly a Hardware issue according to RAW. At a Signal strength of "0" or 3mt. there are so many other devices around in most civilized areas of the metroplex to act as routers that you can easily maintain a connection to the Matrix. And just becasue I have a low signal strength does not mean that a KE surveilance drone could not scan my link for my SIN it would clearly be available, as long as I was not in hidden mode, but two way communication between the devices would not be possible. So I could not ask the freindly KE drone for directions.

Third, very early on in the post someone brought up RL referances to modern cell phones regularly changing there signal strengths to save battery life and to prevent the bandwith from getting filled up with a zillion phones all broadcasting at full strength. That last part is a bit wonkey but hey I am not an electrical engineer. So in my game players, specifically the Hacker cause thats what he gets paid for, can adjust the Signal strength on his custom link when he chooses.

"Change Linked Device Mode" a Free action.

It's the other way around...I could scan the KE drone but he couldn't detect my commlink with a scan if i had a low enough signal..even if it was running in public mode. Scanning for nodes in SR is not like radar where I send out a pulse of signal and then time how long it takes to bounce back...it is merely passive remote sensing where the device is looking for signals which are being transmitted by other devices at different frequencies. The signal attribute indicates how much distance the EM waves which my commlink EMITS travel before their amplitude dies off. If the EM waves which my commlink emits die off before they reach the KE surveilance drone (i.e. i have a low signal), then he cannot know that my commlink even exists. The waves he's emitting however are probably travelling a much greater distance and my commlink can pick them up and read them to find out where he is.

Hidden mode and other device modes are most likely frequency dependent...hidden mode could mean for example that my commlink switches frequencies very rapidly and so that it's harder for others to find the right frequency that it's broadcasting at....but it's nonetheless broadcasting.
You're right though that i couldn't establish a matrix connection through the KE drone because that would require a two way connection meaning we would have to be in mutual signal range.

Oi Inca,

Sorry you got it wrong. The KE drone would be able to sense me not the other way around. Say he had a signal of (4) or 1Km. to my (0) or 3 mt., I would not be able to ping out any greater than my own Signal strength where as the drone could scan or sniff for nodes and wireless traffic at his full signal distance and any where in between. And if I am running in normal mode with a signal of (0) or 3 mt. he would still be able to pick up my commlink if I was in active mode.

As far as modes go I think it is more of a function of communication protocols. Active: I'lll accept all incoming comuniques, Passive: I am broadcasting my SIN like a good wage slave but leave me alone with your spam, Hidden: Do not accept any incoming matrix traffic accept those authorized by the Admin or user and do not transmit accept to thos nodes authorized by the Admin or user.

Actually, if you're playing with Matrix Service Providers, any legit MSP will provide you with an Agent free of charge. Sort of like how, if you're paying for a high-necessity lifestyle, you should have a Renraku Manservant-3 drone as part of the package. Just, if you're renting it, they expect it back when you leave...

This is wrong and I have already quoted the relevant rule. In your example, the KE node can scan for the Signal 0 node as long as the matrix is dense enough in the area.

Scanning for a node (active or hidden) appears to be broken down into two forms

1) direct scanning
2) indirect scanning


1) Requires you to be within mutual range of the node to be dectected as it works by scanning the common frequencies given off by matrix accessable devices and is passive.

2) Requires you to have a active subscription and access to a node which is in range of the target node as shown above in point 1. This would allow a hacker who is in a van use a drone for the purposes of scanning (there are various reasons why you might want to do it like this maybe a laser link to the drone to cut out the transmissions then a quick passive scan from the drone to help you zero in on the target).



Given the basic settings (active passive or hidden) having the ability to dial down the signal output of your commlink so you are not scannable by someone between 1 and 4 KM away (sig 4 or 5 respectivly) sounds more then fair.

My first thought would be five man team all in passive mode sending messages between them using a signal of 2 (100m) meaning a close (but not to close) team could communicate without flooding the area with transmissions.

Personally I would house rule this slightly (as it is not covered by raw) by making it a program using the costs for hacking programs with the rating required to equal the signal of the device that is being changed. I would also require it to be run on the device when being used not just change the settings and shut it down.

Do you have a reference for that? I didn't find any.

First quote




Second quote



The main implication for mutual range is within the second part of the rule for detecting hidden nodes. If you have to be within mutual range to scan for it if you don’t know its location it makes sense you need to be within mutual range when you do know its location. But I would say it does go against the logic of searching for a nodes output not to make a connection but to simply look for its data which is more sniffer then scan.

I may be completely off base with this interpretation though as the matrix side of things does get somewhat confusing.

I'm assuming by this that the communication between the KE drone and the commlink is through the matrix. Otherwise how is the data containing the SIN getting to the drone?
I'm assuming you mean direct two way communication, and that you would have to go through the matrix to get to the drone and if you're on the matrix who needs the drone for directions?

If my assumptions are wrong, please help me understand.

If Node A has a 0 Signal (3m) and Node B has a 6 signal (40Km)
As long as Node A is within 40km of Node B, it can detect Node B.
Unless Node B is within 3m of Node A, it cannot detect Node A doing a scan of the local wifi traffic.

I really have to put that one down to magic. I can't think of a physical explanation for it. Thankfully, this is a game with magic.

Edit: As I mention below, this entire post by me is my bad. I mentally had it backwards. I might have still mentally been on the NexusHound example which is the exact opposite of sabs example.

Um, what? What's the problem, exactly? You can't hear someone whispering if you're at shouting range, but they can hear you shouting. Simple.

It may be that you need mutual Signal range to Detect Hidden Nodes, but we can agree about the quote bit.

You do?

why?

Shortwave Radio.

You might be able to pick up signals from Russia, or India here in the States.. being broadcast by powerful broadcasters (High Signal Rating)
but you certainly can't broadcast that far.. because your personal radio only has a range of 100 miles or so.

My bad. My mental dyslexia had me reading it backwards where the high signal device was finding the low signal device. Entirely my fault. I think I was associating sabs example with Nexushound's example when they're actually opposites. (see my post immediately before sabs for an idea of what I thought sabs was responding to)

Nexushound, Traul:
Check out Yerameyahu's response....that's a great analogy. If you're shouting (high signal) and i'm whispering (low signal) ....i can hear you but you can't hear me. EM waves behave the same as sound-waves. You're confusing active remote sensing (radar, sonar) with simple passive remote sensing (a camera, a listening device)....you even used the word "ping" which means you send a signal out and wait for the response.
Sab also mentioned how it works the same as present day radios which are passive remote sensing devices. At my job I use a lidar...this is an active remote sensing device where we take a laser and bounce it off of clouds to detect them.

I noticed a lot of people think that high signal should just be an all around good stat for you, but the only situations it's really good for is: 1. if you're in a sparsely populated wifi zone and you want to maintain connectivity.....2. If you want to be able to command you're drones from very far away, both you and your drone need to have a large signal rating....the downside to this is that any hacker within the huge signal range of your drone can spoof commands to that drone.
....outside of these two scenarios, high signal is really bad for shadowrunners......and hence, why it's a HUGE advantage to be able to lower your signal rating. My runners always want to purchase huge signal ratings even if they're not riggers so then i let them pay the consequences and they realize that the bigger the number doesn't always mean better.

I even do the same thing with their skills....if they want to have a skill rating of 7 with using a quality....then once word gets out, there are several corporations which will try to perform extractions on them and find very diabolical ways of trying to force them to be a high level wage-slave.....and you can build a whole shadowrun around trying to save him.

remember your defense against jammers is:
signal+eccm software rating.

The max rating of a scanner is 10
So with a signal 6 and eccm of 4, you cannot be jammed, ever.

oh ya...that's another advantage of high signal

Oh and one question I have....if you're jumped into a drone and then the drone gets jammed....do you suffer dumpshock?

Actually, AFAIK, spoofing is 'yelling': you use your Signal range, not the drone's (or other target).

By the same token, high Signal doesn't necessarily help you stay connected where there's no wifi: you need to get responses from the Matrix, not just broadcast out.

And you're still being silly, Inca. It's like punishing your players for buying fast cars by saying they *can't* drive slower. If you want to force high signal to *stay* high, you owe your players a warning first.

@Lansdren: I don't find anything in the part you quoted that supports that the Detect Hidden Node action only uses radio scanning.

@Inca: I understood your interpretations and analogies very well, thank you, but you still did not provide any backing that makes them more than you handwaving.

A hidden node is by definition a node that does not answer to ping. But even if it does not answer to ping, it still uses the matrix, and the matrix has a P2P routing infrastructure. So you can see paquets to or from the hidden node transitting through your commlink. Also add that the paquet headers must include some geographical information for routing, because the alternative is network flooding and nobody wants to do that. So if you know which location you are looking for, you can check the paquets to or from this location and read the corresponding accessID. This can all be done at the routing level, no need to go down to the physical level. For Lansdren: the difference between scanning and sniffing would then be that sniffing is interested in the content of the paquets (and might have to decrypt them), whereas scanning only uses the headers.

I am not saying that has to work like that. I am just saying that no matter how hard you believe in your interpretation and you try to push it through as The Truth, it is only personnal handwaving to fill an area that was left blank in the official fluff. All we have is the RAW, and the RAW is that Detect Hidden Node does not require mutual signal range if you know the location.

I think that's missing the point: like almost anything, it requires *either* mutual signal range, *or* a Matrix route. Area scans use mutual signal range (I assume) to limit you to a sufficiently small area.

Well, if there's just one other device out there with a high signal range....like a tower....then it improves your chances of getting connectivity is what was implied.

I'm just "punishing" my players for not getting a mod which would allow them to adjust their signal rating....just like i would tell a player, "no you can't communicate sub-vocally with your teamates because you never bought a subvocal microphone". If it was like "i want to use my belt to strap this grunt to a chair"....sure i assume people just have things like a belt to hold up their pants or shoes...I'd even go so far as saying that my players have things like a screw driver (which is pushing it in my opinion). But not stuff that obviously is an important tool for shadowrunning...that has to be part of their whole "planning the run" deal.
And of course if there's a player who's new to shadowrun i hold their hand a lot more....but my players have been at it a while and i have to keep on thinking of ways to make it interesting but not becoming a nazi.

As for the skills thing...it's not like i make their life hell, but i'll throw in little curve balls that sometimes turn their "strengths" into weaknesses.....like creating the rare scenario where there's no way to bring a weapon into some place.....the guys who aren't hand-to-hand have to take backseat for a little while while the unarmed fighters shine.

Oh, I get you: if the only available sources have range greater than *yours*, you're stuck.

Yeah, you get dumpshock for basically any unplanned disconnection: drone death, wire cut, wireless disabled, bullet through the commlink… It's their fault for not knowing about/investing in Armored Commlink!

But do you assume his pants stay on when he removes the belt?

It makes sense: the bullet is not likely to stay inside the unarmored commlink, so in such an eventuality the hacker may have more important to think about than dumpshock, such as bullet in the chest.

I must have missed that rule. If hidden node is communicating to the matrix, how is that hidden?

Mentally, I pictured hidden nodes just communicating with the other nodes that they're told to, usually other hidden nodes or public nodes that serve as an anonymizer and know better than to out the hidden node. (Hidden commlink needs a map, asks public commlink, which goes and gets a map "for itself" and then passes that map to hidden commlink.)

Edit: The above example is another use for high signals. Using a high signal disposable anonymizer/repeater may be useful to hackers who would like to not be easily physically traced.

The same way computers *today* use the internet without responding to unwanted pings.

In short, the people who own the nearby Matrix nodes know where they are (Just like MY ISP knows I'm posting on dumpshock) and can probably triangulate their position just like cell towers can triangulate a phone's position.

This seems less than ideal for shadowrunners. If I'm running hidden, the last thing I want is my communications to my teammates going through the matrix devices of the corporate enclave we're running in.

"What are you worried about Bob? Sure, we're sending Tacnet information through the local Aztec nodes so the team can stay in touch, but there's no way the Azzies know were here because we've turned ping off and we're running hidden."