Rhonabwy had his stats published in Prime Runners way back when, he had Magic 25. I seem to remember the Sea Dragon (forget her name) stated up somewhere as well. Arleesh is stated up in Bottled Demon and is pretty weak, but at that point she'd only been active for about 10 months so was probably not at full strength. Not Sure about Celedyr, I'll do more digging.

You will NEVER.

Let me repeat, NEVER.

Let me say it one more time to get the point across. NEVER

Be able to pull this off. You cannot get that many Ally spirits (I see we still want to try and break those rules). This scenario is moot since it is impossible.

Hm. How would I inhabit a dragon? Well, the first trick is killing one that's big enough to live inside and hoping the body's still mostly in one piece afterward. ;)

Or you could have a dragon shaped house built.

Actually it is not impossible. You can have as many Ally Spirits as you want, at as high a Force as you can pay. The problem with this scenario is available karma and making sure no-one catches on.

Both of those are monumental tasks, however.

The karma is actually the easy part. If even a single attempt allows the spirit of the dragon to flee and warn anyone about what you are doing, the land mass you occupy will quickly heat up to about 20-30 thousands degrees, and begin to rapidly expand in a hemispherical configuration.

I wouldn't call the karma part easy relative to your latter point. Drain Karma is a fairly torturous power for the victims, and it seems like the amount of karma needed requires a massive amount of victims. If you Drain your victims to death, LS and KE will get pretty motivated to find you as the body count rises. If you don't, they and others will be motivated to find you as the assault count rises. If you don't and wipe their memories of the incident, people will STILL notice something wrong happening, as large amounts of people report sudden and unexplained aging, weakness, debilitation, internal injuries, et cetera. That will draw the attention of big players, including adult dragons as a bare minimum, and the super-super-super-intelligent greats could probably guess what you're planning almost immediately, when you probably haven't even made an attempt yet.

I'm probably thinking of Rhonabwy then.

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

Sounds like a pretty silly power, then. Karma for watching something? 30 a *night*? Banned.

Its in streetmagic. Best of all, they can watch multiple people at once. Have 500 people in an orgy pit... well, profit. Needless to say they also CAN and often DO participate in the act, but it is not a requirement.

It does seem to exhaust the victim somewhat quickly, though. Which doesn't exactly invalidate my point, although getting the karma without exposing yourself would indeed be easier then.

You mean someone passes out after the best climax of their life?

Quick someone call 911!!! Johny just banged the hottest chick on the planet for an hour straight and then passed out!!!

Do you even see anyone paying any attention to that kind of call for help at all? Cause that sort of thing seems kinda normal in a place where drug fueled sex romps are the norm..... Just saying.

I think i know.

Very, very, VERY carefully.

Ok, but succubi cannot get Ally Spirit, which invalidates your example. In fact, there's no way whatsoever for a Player to get access to any of the karma drain powers without GM fiat. It takes GM fiat to allow players to Call spirits with the drain themselves, and that still does not allow any access of the Power for the Caller themself.

Karma remains a problem.

Unless, of course, the Caller manages to negotiate a Pact with the Spirit so Called...
But still, GM Fiat... so yeah...

Ah, this is where you are wrong. A succubi can be banished and then bound, or the PC can strike a bargin with it for the spirit pact. The succubi can then either use its Karma drain power, and then through the abuse of endowment allow the mage access to the power to get the Karma from it, or simply grant the mage the power, so that they can use it straight off. At which point because of the abuse of endowment, the mage could then allow his spirits the use of the power....

That is splitting hairs. It is virtually impossible to accomplish such a task, no matter how much you try to shoehorn it into the rules.

It all requires the GM to approve this stuff anyway so....

Yeah but in SR GM approval is stated for every dice roll and for you to exist RAW so its a weak argument against the hypothetical.

so what we're saying is..
If he GM is stupid.. it's doable.

Actually, only Great Form Task and Guardain spirits have Endowment, and only certain Free Spirits have Spirit Pacts. Again, it would take GM-fiat for either of those scenarios to work.

And Toxic Spirits can be created by the Gm with any powers that they see fit. Which is of course, GM Fiat again. But they seem to keep on going back to open-ended GM rules for creating opponents for the players, and wanting to use those to create some monstrosity and call it "RAW no REALLY".

Right.... I banish and bind a succubi, and then have another spirit who's greatform allows for endowment. Its really not that complicated.

A succubus. Sprits can Endow powers from *other* things?

Which leads us right back to "virtually impossible" since no Shadowrun GM worth his salt would ever allow this!!!!

Good GM's = less crazy games.

Unless that is exactly what you are shooting for. If so, by all means, do it to it....

No, it's more like the endowment spirit gives the sucubus endowment, and it gives that ability to you. Then you're endowment spirit gives you endowment, and you give karma drain to your army of minions to collect the karma for you. The only point of GM fiat required is for the succubus to enter the campaign in the first place.

Interesting. You'd think that Endowing Endowment wouldn't work. I agree that it does by the RAW, just offering an opinion.

Endowing Endowment is SR's Sarrukh.

Fortunately, I have been informed, that any given target can only be subject to one Endowment at a time.

That, and I would expect the total number of Endowed Powers to max out at the *original* Great Form's Magic rating (no army of minions). As if that was the biggest problem.

How easy is it to get 5 net hits on Invoking, anyway? Seems like a nontrivial component of this exercise.

Against a low force spirit, its far easier then a high force one.

Yes, but that succubi does not neccessarily have a Spirit Pact, much less the Power Pact in specific.


/agree. Stated in the Endowment Power.

Not needed, as when it is granted the endowment power, it can then grant Karma drain to others.


Yes, however this is one of those 'failings of the enligsh language' moments, as it can also mean each character can receive 1 power/spirit.

Endowment says



Exactly that. [Magic] number of people can receive 1 power, total each, at any given time.

So a force 6 spirit can give 6 people one of its powers (need not be the same) but additional spirits can only give more people powers.

I agree each spirit can only give each person one power, but the power "may" be read as each person can get multiple powers so long as each one is from a different spirit.

If there are multiple ways to interpret an ability, then you should choose the one that provides the least amount of craziness within the rules set...

I try to go for the one that makes the most sense. The way the rule reads, there is a significant problem with it, in that if something endows endowment to a nonspirit, that nonspirit can then endow all of its abilities to something else.

endowing endow is alot like endowing sapience.

It's weird and doesn't make alot of sense.

oh, but its 'magic' right? That's what everyone keeps telling me.

Yeah yeah.. it's still weird.

Sapience and Endowment shouldn't be 'powers' they should be 'traits'

Ghostwalker has published stats in the Denver missions campaign. He's also got a bunch of spells on him all the time. Something like Force 24 or so. In the end, the spells about double his normal stats which iirc are the GD stats listed in the BBB plus a bonus.

He's fairly tough as written. Killable? Yes but you'd need a metric crapload (or ten) of firepower and preparation to pulll it off.

There is that partial gag ruleset from an old April Fools day for playing a full fledged dragon...

I think the dragons from that joke section aren't all that bad really.

MAGIC!

They're more powerful than any of the other races, kinda get magic for free (eg. no need to be a "mage" you already are), and have some other options, but yes. Generally speaking they're pretty much in line with everything else that's been published: very strong, but also very BP heavy (less so than a free spirit, IIRC).

More than a free spirit.

A free spirit is 250 BP for F2, and depending on your reading of the rules (as I've pointed out and we've stalemated), possibly raising their Force raises all their other attributes. Maybe not, YMMV.

The cheapest dragon is 300 BP for stats higher than a troll's and a Magic of 6. Those stats are higher than many min-maxed characters will have at all, and even if a min-maxed elf gets a higher Agility than your dragon, the rest of your attributes will be significantly higher.

Yes, but you will have no skills, or spells when you're done making your character. You're effectively the draconic equivalent of an infant.

You still have 100 BP for skills, spells, and gear. That's more than enough.

Interestingly, those rules say that dragons use Shapechange for the (Human) Form trick. /shrug.

I'd love for those section to actually get completed. I'd like to see how it turns out and perhaps build NPC dragons (for future gaming sessions) to follow those rules.

Neraph, perhaps there was supposed to be a note for Shapechange that exempts Dragons from some of the limits so they can use it for taking on a metahuman form. Who knows...