Reception Enhancer: +1/+2/+3 Perception for 0.2/0.4/0.6 essence and 20,000/40,000/60,000 nuyen.
Attention Co-Processor: +1/+2/+3 Perception for 0.3/0.3/0.3 essence and 3,000/6,000/9,000 nuyen.

I propose the ACP be made to cost 0.3/0.6/0.9 essence, making the reception enhancer better in SOME way above rating 1 (though it's still way too expensive). Maybe the RE should be made cheaper in nuyen cost, as well. Thoughts?

Oh, jeez. If you're going to start balancing all the augmentations…

What else would you balance, and how, and why? My issue with the aforementioned issue is that there is NO benefit to taking RE 2 or 3 over ACP 2 or 3 in most cases. Even when costs are ludicrous, bioware normally has a better essence footprint and cyber normally costs less cash.

RE works on Matrix Perception and assensing aswell...

I'm not going to go into it. On this topic, why not instead (or also) decrease the Essence cost of the Reception Enhancer?

Personally, I think you're missing that the Reception Enhancer *is* better. It works on Matrix and Astral Perception tests. I don't know if it's 'more Essence' better, of course. (Whoops, scooped by Makki! )

Oops... I somehow missed that. It's still too expensive, but that helps. Thanks!

+3 dice to matrix and astral perception for .6 essence?
Sign me up please
Twice on Sundays
That's like a must have on my 4 essence mage builds

Especially because it's so easy to get extra 'physical' Perception dice, and so hard to get extra dice for Matrix and (double-especially) Astral.

More, remember that your Bioware Essence Cost is almost certainly going to be divided in half: 0.1, 0.2, 0.3.

I admit, Type-O is almost certainly a must have for a mage thinking about bioware

sadly you're not allowed 45BP worth of qualities

You know, for some reason, I always thought Adept, Mystic Adept, and Magician were Qualities that didn't count against the cap. Like the HMVV races and stuff.

No, I meant because your bioware total tends to be lower. For a 'bio-mage', perhaps not.

So I have a question.

If I have cyber eyes can I use TacNet bonuses to cast spells?

No. It's 'Essence-Paid' vision enhancements, not AR. If you could use any AR, then you could pipe thermo, low-light, radar, etc. into your implanted image-link or vanilla cybereyes, and from any source (flying drones, other runners, whatever).

but I paid for my imagelink

I just said that. It's not an enhanced sense that's integral to the character.

I get it. I still think it's a grey area. It should help me with targeted spells I would think.

*shrug* It still helps you maneuver and dodge and things. The tech/magic separation is a (now eroding ) cornerstone of the game. It is pretty messy in the rules, especially because the difference between senses and sensors isn't clear-cut either. Currently, even Indirect Spells use a 'mystical connection' to cast; SR4 doesn't have 'weapon-like' spells, AFAIK?

I admit, I'd like the tech/magic seperation to come back more forcefully.

But, if its' going to erode the tacnet seems like a logical place.

And *I'll* admit that AR-overlays (basically, everything) that simply indicate where to look don't (logically) ruin a 'natural' LOS. But them's the rules. :/

It is better, but only if you can perceive astral or are ever in a situation where you will commonly need to make matrix perception checks. It's stuff like this that makes me wish there was some sort of guide on how equipment costs are come up with or even have a "magic friendly" surcharge applied to a base bioware cost for any character that is awakened or could become awakened. I feel as though mundanes are in many cases being penalized for using bioware because of magic. I'd almost say half bioware costs, but require non-mundanes to purchase at least alpha-grade bioware?

High-level bioware is the last great dream of the Shadowrunner. If you just give that dream away, what's left?

Well... I guess there is always the Megazeppelin..

Even for a mage, I would only think about RE after the Perceptive quality: only 1 BP more expensive per rating but no Essence cost.

There are also some mentor spirits that give a +2 bonus to perception/assensing.

Tac Net can't see their auras which is what you are targeting so just because BOB can see him in thermo he can't see the aura and so can't assist.

I always kind of figured that the fixed essence cost was a typo, and it should have been 0.3/rating just like every other ware in the game.

Don't try to use logic on something as crazy as SR magic rules, jakephillips. The *mage* (with his own eyes) can't see their auras either, unless he's using Astral Perception; that can't be the requirement for targeting.

it specifically says that you're not using their aura to target them when it says you can't cast spells from the astral.

So really that doesn't work as a logic.

And as Y mentioned, you can't see your own aura.. so how are you casting spells at yourself.

That's touch range... you don't need LOS for touch spells.

Apart from that, you are right of course, you don't need to see an aura to target a spell.

-CJ

Hear Hear!

I actually think making all options balanced against each other would make the game worse – if option A and option B give exactly the same investment-to-reward ratio then why bother printing option B? So players will invariably choose the more economical option for their intended result, so what? That's what happens in RL right? What's more is that players generally only think about the mechanical differences. The more expensive option available might come with a better service package, nicer colours, longer warranty, better reputation, you name it – all those little things that real people might consider more important than anything else but 'runners and/or their players couldn't care less because they only think about the nitty-gritty.

In terms of gameplay here's my suggestion. If your players are never going to consider the less economical option for gear, augmentations and what-have-you, see what heppens when they can't get hold of the unanimously-preferred option (through excessive demand, say) and have to either pay that little extra nuyen/Essence or else wait for a few more weeks.

Because in this case, option A and option B do not do the same thing. They do different things. It's one thing to get better perception in the meat world. It's another to get better perception in the meat/astral/matrix worlds. It's a third to get better perception in all three without any loss of essence. (And as long as Astral Perception Tests = Assensing, there is no reason to not grab 10 points of perception if you have room for it in qualities.)

Meanwhile, balance encourages diversity. I wouldn't try to do it in SR4 because it's simply too late. Like security, it's something you need to start with and keep in mind throughout the project, not tack on in the end.

Yes, as has already been shown, this particular instance does not involve the same investment-to-reward ratio across the options. That's why I didn't refer to it – I was debating with the philosophy behind the post, as was Yerameyahu.

I don't think so.

I'm looking at headware and none of it with a rating value is essence/rating. All the eyeware has flat essence costs. All the earware has flat essence costs. Only bodyware has rated ware that has essence based on rating.

On the other hand, almost all bioware with rating has variable essence. The only exception is Enhanced Pheromone Receptors (0.1). I cannot for the life of me find something that gives an effective 9 dice (3 perception, 3 matrix perception, 3 astral perception) for 60,000 nuyen and 0.6 essence. Tailored Pheromones (45,000 nuyen, 0.6 essence) can provide a grand total of 24 dice (3 Judge Intentions, 3 Composure, 3 Con, 3 Etiquette, 3 Instruction, 3 Intimidation, 3 Leadership, 3 Negotiation). Reception Enhancers should be either 0.1 essence per rating or a flat 0.2 or 0.3.

--



My concerns have nothing to do with balancing bioware versus cyberware but rather avoiding placing a magic-friendly tax on mundanes. Bioware should be more expensive just on the lower essence cost alone, but a lot of that cost is balance specifically because of magic. Beyond that, balance is desirable unless you want to see cookie cutter character where everyone with a similar concept uses the exact same ware setup. Current you have two choices. Be inefficient and possibly fall behind other players or be efficient and look like everyone else. This is where the firearms section is good. Sure there are some that are the obvious best choices, but you don't lose much going with many of the other choices.

The active advantages to bioware is lower essence costs and what should be and overall greater quantity of bioware for the same essence cost. You get that in trade for a higher upfront cost.

There are passive advantages to bioware that aren't tangible, but they require the GM to utilize the mechanics that make those advantages pay off.
#1 - Maintenance. How many GMs have the players perform maintenance on their chrome.
#2 - Detectability. How often does the ease of detection of cyberware play a part.

Let me show you some bio/cyber where I feel the intangible benefits are appropriate.

Muscle Replacement vs Muscle Augmentation & Toner
Muscle A&T is 40% of the essence cost of Muscle R while Muscle R is 33% the nuyen cost of Muscle A&T. About 7% of the cost of Muscle A&T is the intangible benefits of detectability and maintenance. I don't want to see more than a 10% difference between the two if it's a linear progression.

Now Wired Reflexes vs Synaptic Booster.
Rank 1: WR 13.75% nuyen cost of SB. SB 25% essence cost of WR.
Rank 2: WR 20% nuyen cost of SB. SB 33% essence cost of WR.
Rank 3: WR 41.6% nuyen cost of SB. SB 30% essence cost of WR.
WR/SB is where I tolerate a higher than 10% difference because it swings from one advantage to the other. WR goes from have a 11.25% advantage to a 13% advantage to a 11.6% disadvantage. However it is only the high price of SB3 that makes this tolerable for me, otherwise I would say SB3 is under-priced.

See, that's exactly what I meant when I said that you shouldn't start rebalancing the whole system. It'll never end well.

Reduce all bioware costs by 25-50% and then add an entry to the awakened positive qualities that adds a 50-100% surcharge on bioware in order to have it function with magic. May cause some balance issues with phys adepts.

Wow, never noticed that before. I suppose they figure that higher rating values are just better programs running on the cyberware that is already there.

Of course then you get into the realm of a hacker cracking/self-writing those programs.

See
It used to be in the older version that
essence loss represented the implants causing you to detach from humanity.
Being able to move faster, automatically calculate the number of grains of sand on the beach, to zoom in on vast distances.. etc.. made you less human. it represented your connection to your body and your will to live.

Even know 0 essence isn't.. your body can't function anymore.. it's. your soul wants to get the hell out of dodge, because it no longer cares about the physical world.

Like I said, Reception Enhancers price and essence costs don't seem right. Evening considering Rating x 3 availability doesn't make it feel right.

Qualia, for instance, gives +1 Intuition-link skills for 0.4 essence and 25,000. You're essentially paying 0.2 essence and 5,000 nuyen for an extra +1 to the rest of your intuition linked skills (woefully cheap).
Synch is +1 Perception plus a special effect for 30,000 nuyen and 0.3 essence. The extra +1 to all combat test after the first round of combat is just a cost of 10,000 nuyen and 0.1 essence.

I suppose that would explain why titanium bone lacing costs more than other kinds, but I think it can be accepted that essence is just a game balance mechanism that has had some attempts at being explained in fluff.

It makes sense, actually.

Cyberware that needs more hardware for higher ratings costs a variable amount of Essence.

Cyberware that can be upgraded with better software does not.




-karma

That does not jivewell with MBW 3 vs say the essence cost of a cyber torso, and 4 cyber limbs.

Er, why?

Both are highly invasive hardware systems.

Both cost more essence the more you put in.




-karma

well cause a full cyborg body is more invasive, replaces so much more of your body than mbw3 does.

Are you sure? Given that MBW3 requires the ability to control every one of your muscles (and thus needs something implanted in every single muscle you have), I'd say it is replacing a ton of meat.

Edit: Also, cybertorso is a shell, not a complete replacement of the torso.

MBW grafts electrodes onto every muscle, and really by the description mbw 3 probably doesn't have a lot more 'hardware' than mbw 1
cyberlimbs chop off said limb.. and replace it with a robotic alternative. That seems way more invasive.

I'm actually okay with the idea that mbw3 costs 5, it's causing your entire body to be in a state of grandmaul seizures all the time, and using neural dampeners and electricshock to keep it in check. That's bloody crazy. But it's not really because you're losing 'meat'

Your actually missing the part where those to pieces of ware aren't incompatible, so if your serious about maxing your perception pool, you want both of those not just one or the other.

That's a non-factor for comparison of the two. The ability of any two pieces of ware to stack doesn't appear to have any effect on the cost that piece of ware.

Reception Enhancer I functions identically to a Reflex Recorder (Perception). They stack with each other, yet the Reception Enhancer I is twice the nuyen and essence cost of a Reflex Recorder. I could see and understand a reflex recorder in price for extra essence and nuyen to have a stacking augment (in other words no more than 40,000 nuyen and 0.4 essence for +3). Thus I think that 12,500 * Rating for cost with a 0.1 * Rating essence cost is about right.

Except you can't get a Reflex Recorder (Perception). Combat or physical skills only.



-karma

Perception is a Physical Skill

Physical Active Skills
Climbing
Disguise
Diving
Escape Artist
Gymnastics
Infiltration
Navigation
Palming
Parachuting
Perception
Running
Shadowing
Swimming
Tracking

Weird. It really shouldn't be. It's processing sensory data.



-karma