I was looking at some rpg articles here and there and it just hit me; would it be ok to have lizardmen as a playable race?
both as a GM and a player, i kinda dislike to see some mixes... i'm well aware of big bad trollies and dorfs walking around, as well as it's deviant metatypes (minos, satyrs and such), but perhaps i think lizardmen might be a lil' awkward (more over if found in packs) because they wouldn't be mammals like the rest of the PC races...
i'd like to hear your thoughts about it and, whenever possible, if at all, racial traits and rules (such as BP cost for character creation).
Full Version: Lizardmen as a playable race
*shrug* If you want freaks like lizardmen in your game, surge is they way to go...
-CJ
-CJ
Well, it's not like lizardmen aren't already part of the SR universe. I'm fully expecting the T'skrang (and Obsidmen) to show up.
The T'skrang (if that's what you want to use as your template) would probably have +1 BOD, +1 AGI, +1 CHA
The T'skrang (if that's what you want to use as your template) would probably have +1 BOD, +1 AGI, +1 CHA
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Sep 29 2010, 02:04 PM) 
Well, it's not like lizardmen aren't already part of the SR universe. I'm fully expecting the T'skrang (and Obsidmen) to show up.
T'skrang, maybe. Obsidimen have probably been all turned into macahuitls or teocalli altars by now.
yes, we need more freakish races in SR.....
voted no.
voted no.
I just had this vision of a bunch of Obsidimen waking up in Stone Henge during a Druidic Conference going.. "why are you guys in our lifestone?"
That's pretty classic funny.
In Earthdawn it's clear the Obsdimen were around during the 2nd age, and somehow slumbered during the 3rd. I could see them showing up again when the Magic gets high enough.
T'SKrang are more like Dinosaurmen than Lizardmen.
That's pretty classic funny.
In Earthdawn it's clear the Obsdimen were around during the 2nd age, and somehow slumbered during the 3rd. I could see them showing up again when the Magic gets high enough.
T'SKrang are more like Dinosaurmen than Lizardmen.
QUOTE (WalksWithWiFi @ Sep 29 2010, 10:53 AM)
yes, we need more freakish races in SR...
yeah, that's exactly what i'm afraid of... but would lizardmen (or t'skrang, for that matter) get something like a dermal armor for it's scales, olfatory boost or something?
eh we got free spirits, naga, changlings, drakes, surge and AIs why not one more?
I would so rather see T'skrang or Obsidianmen as opposed to the big birds and cthulhu muppet's that the changeling's brought us. (And yes using changeling rules you can make a big bird or a cthulhu cookie monster.)
Lizardmen no, T'Skrang why the fuck not.
QUOTE (WalksWithWiFi @ Sep 29 2010, 04:53 PM)
yes, we need more freakish races in SR.....
voted no.
voted no.
Same here.
There are already enough "freak show" options with metavariants and SURGE.
No T'skrang or Obsidimen for me either. I never cared for the Earthdawn crossover. I'm fine with it as long as it's only in novels and cryptic shadowtalk comments. You can easily ignore those.
If you wan lizardmen SURGE them, any new metatype would be rare enough initially we don't need, and frankly I don't want, stats for them.
I would see Lizardmen more as sapient critters like the Sasquatch rather than as a metavariant. Think a swamp at night is scary enough with just awakened critters to worry about, imagine something the build of a crocodile, only aware, and able to out think you.
Something like lizardmen, set and cohesive, bothers me a lot less than the ridiculousness that is SURGE and changelings.
Something like lizardmen, set and cohesive, bothers me a lot less than the ridiculousness that is SURGE and changelings.
Yeah, you can get pretty close to a t'skrang (or lizardman, or Argonian - all the same thing in my book) by using Surge on your preferred race. If a 15 point changeling doesn't cover it, throw in "genetic heritage" for transgenic alteration (alien appearance or animal features) to round things out. Hmm, lemee see what I can work up...
T. Skrang Changelings:
cost: 15 points
This complex of metagenes, identified and sequenced by Doctor Tran Skrang of University Bali, results in a changeling who superficially resembles a bipedal reptile or dinosaur with a powerful and highly functional crocodilian tail and a sharp beak (most often with internal teeth). The metacomplex is most common by far among humans of Indonesia (and pacifica in general), being only several times observed in elves or dwarfs; it has never been observed of in orcs or trolls. Some of the same metagenes found in this complex have also been found to exist in the Naga genome, but so far no identical sequences have been found, with genetic drift indicating that any potential genetic exchange happened over 20,000 years ago.
POSITIVe MeTAGeNeTIC QUALITIeS: 35 points
Underwater Vision+5, Gills+5, Beak+5, Functional Tail +20 (count as Balance Tail, Thagomizer & Paddle Tail)
NeGATIVe MeTAGeNeTIC QUALITIeS: 20 Points
Scales -5 (most often green, blue-green, or yellow-green), Extravagent Eyes -5 (large, slitted, and most often red and gold), Critter Spook -5 (reptilian odor), Mood Hair -5 (crest, tail)
note- In Earthdawn, T'skrang have essentially human stats and abilities, with the tail and ability to live under water being the only outstanding features (mechanics-wise). It would be reasonable to drop "beak" and "balance tail" along with "critter spook" and "mood hair", as they are not strictly called for by the rules on T'skrang. However, given the fact that T'skrang can not be beastmasters, eat awesomely spicy pickled fish without consequence, and are often described as flamboyant acrobats and liars, those qualities fit nicely.
Looks like a 15 point changeling covers if pretty well.
If you really want them as a race, make them a human metavariant. The Nartaki is feeling lonely.
T. Skrang Changelings:
cost: 15 points
This complex of metagenes, identified and sequenced by Doctor Tran Skrang of University Bali, results in a changeling who superficially resembles a bipedal reptile or dinosaur with a powerful and highly functional crocodilian tail and a sharp beak (most often with internal teeth). The metacomplex is most common by far among humans of Indonesia (and pacifica in general), being only several times observed in elves or dwarfs; it has never been observed of in orcs or trolls. Some of the same metagenes found in this complex have also been found to exist in the Naga genome, but so far no identical sequences have been found, with genetic drift indicating that any potential genetic exchange happened over 20,000 years ago.
POSITIVe MeTAGeNeTIC QUALITIeS: 35 points
Underwater Vision+5, Gills+5, Beak+5, Functional Tail +20 (count as Balance Tail, Thagomizer & Paddle Tail)
NeGATIVe MeTAGeNeTIC QUALITIeS: 20 Points
Scales -5 (most often green, blue-green, or yellow-green), Extravagent Eyes -5 (large, slitted, and most often red and gold), Critter Spook -5 (reptilian odor), Mood Hair -5 (crest, tail)
note- In Earthdawn, T'skrang have essentially human stats and abilities, with the tail and ability to live under water being the only outstanding features (mechanics-wise). It would be reasonable to drop "beak" and "balance tail" along with "critter spook" and "mood hair", as they are not strictly called for by the rules on T'skrang. However, given the fact that T'skrang can not be beastmasters, eat awesomely spicy pickled fish without consequence, and are often described as flamboyant acrobats and liars, those qualities fit nicely.
Looks like a 15 point changeling covers if pretty well.
If you really want them as a race, make them a human metavariant. The Nartaki is feeling lonely.
Conan The Adventurer cartoon show = your destiny
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Sep 29 2010, 05:46 PM)
Yeah, you can get pretty close to a t'skrang (or lizardman, or Argonian - all the same thing in my book) by using Surge on your preferred race. If 15 point Surge doesn't cover it, throw in "genetic heritage" for transgenic alteration (alien appearance or animal features) to round things out. Hmm, lemee see what I can work up...
[ Spoiler ]
I like this.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Sep 29 2010, 02:04 PM)
The T'skrang (if that's what you want to use as your template) would probably have +1 BOD, +1 AGI, +1 CHA
I disagree. In ED, they get +1 tgh, +1 dex, and +1 chr- but ED stats range from 3-18 for humans, and humans (if you use tribal varients) can get +1 to two different stats. So really, T'skrang stats are perfectly in line with human even in ED, and if you acount for SR's more granular scale, no adjustments are justified. They even move at the exact same rate as humans (on land, at least). So really, a SURGEd human with warm-water adaptations, a fancy tail, and reptilian cosmetics fits the bill very nicely, mechanics wise. If there was a localized population (as I proposed there being in Indonesia) they would tend to interbreed; giving them the "beak" quality makes them freaks, the effects of which would be simple to avoid by forming closed communties, perhaps specializing in underwater construction, fish farming, and so on.
they've said the ED races/universe has broken away, different corporate owners now I htyink.
I'm in thel ine with too many freakish races already. Maybe you encounter some weird group living in a bayou but as a regular race, no. with drakes and ghouls being hunted on sight odds are lizard men as a race would be ending up as Real Life Croc Covered ™ boots in your local mall before they could get recognized.
I'm in thel ine with too many freakish races already. Maybe you encounter some weird group living in a bayou but as a regular race, no. with drakes and ghouls being hunted on sight odds are lizard men as a race would be ending up as Real Life Croc Covered ™ boots in your local mall before they could get recognized.
That's partly why I picked Indonesia. Borneo has HUGE areas of wilderness, much of it swampland. Its also a great place for a pirate base.
On the other hand, plenty of sentient races have avoided persecution while interfacing with humanity. If a group of swamp dwelling T. Skrang changelings wanted to go public, they probably could without much danger. They'd also probably make a fortune if they sold the rights to an "anthropological documentary" about their community, allowed some anthro-tourists in (while playing up the exotica), and so on.
SURGE seems to be SR's current answer to the "what happened to T'skrang and Obsidimen" questions. The genes are (mostly) still there, they just don't show up in the right combos in distinct populations (and in the case of Obsidimen, probably won't, since it takes more than genetics).
On the other hand, plenty of sentient races have avoided persecution while interfacing with humanity. If a group of swamp dwelling T. Skrang changelings wanted to go public, they probably could without much danger. They'd also probably make a fortune if they sold the rights to an "anthropological documentary" about their community, allowed some anthro-tourists in (while playing up the exotica), and so on.
SURGE seems to be SR's current answer to the "what happened to T'skrang and Obsidimen" questions. The genes are (mostly) still there, they just don't show up in the right combos in distinct populations (and in the case of Obsidimen, probably won't, since it takes more than genetics).
Speaking of Obsidianmen, I'd love to see playable Gargoyles as an Obsidianmen metavariant. 
Here we go, the Conan the Adventurer intro, complete with lizardmen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SsHfWBLVr0
Evil serpent-men, not fun-loving lizard-men. Different thing completely.
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Sep 29 2010, 09:58 PM)
Evil serpent-men, not fun-loving lizard-men. Different thing completely.
The differance being the amount of sunning they are allowed.
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 11:05 PM)
The differance being the amount of sunning they are allowed.
Which is which?
Are the happy reptiles the ones that get plenty of sun, or the ones who are too cold to bother moving?
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 29 2010, 11:28 PM)
Which is which?
Are the happy reptiles the ones that get plenty of sun, or the ones who are too cold to bother moving?
Are the happy reptiles the ones that get plenty of sun, or the ones who are too cold to bother moving?
well, my iguana took a bite out of my wrist when I was changing out it's water and it's sun lamp went out so....
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 04:39 PM)
If you wan lizardmen SURGE them, any new metatype would be rare enough initially we don't need, and frankly I don't want, stats for them.
I personally love lizardmen. I really enjoy playing strange races and weird options in most games I play. I do, however, enjoy how simply and efficiently you stated this.
/agree.
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Sep 29 2010, 08:51 PM)
That's partly why I picked Indonesia. Borneo has HUGE areas of wilderness, much of it swampland.
The Congo is 55k square miles (the same size as the state of Florida), mostly a ginormous swamp (I think the largest in the world - I may be wrong), and 80% unexplored.
African Lizard People.
We haven't a had a new race book in forever. I think meta-varients are kinda stale and there a couple race that haven't been translated over from earthdawn. So don't be haters! Do we even have good stats for IEs in 4th? I don't think so. Race Book 4tw.
I suppose the cheapest way to get away with a humanoid reptilian character would be to take Genetic Heretage (animal features) and explain it as the character being born to dragon cult parents or something. Cheaper than SURGEing out, though it doesn't provide any functional benefits.
But still, there's no society, no history and no real roleplaying of a lizard man.
That's something that Qualities and Genetic modification can not provide.
Sure, you can play a guy covered in scales and with a tail or whatever else, but that guy will never be a lizard man.
But still, there's no society, no history and no real roleplaying of a lizard man.
That's something that Qualities and Genetic modification can not provide.
Sure, you can play a guy covered in scales and with a tail or whatever else, but that guy will never be a lizard man.
Just make them as a tribal creature in swamp areas around teh world with stone age knwoledge.
Scaly skin
Underwater Vision
Gills
Prehensile Tail
Thermographic Vision
Beak (Snoutlike Lizardface)
Scaly skin
Underwater Vision
Gills
Prehensile Tail
Thermographic Vision
Beak (Snoutlike Lizardface)
I think the main issue of this is not how to creat them in the game with the current tools, the options above work out pretty well. The issue to me is that there would need to be a big write up of the background of them for non ED players.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Sep 29 2010, 04:04 PM)
Well, it's not like lizardmen aren't already part of the SR universe. I'm fully expecting the T'skrang (and Obsidmen) to show up.
...once the mana level is high enough.
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Sep 30 2010, 09:43 AM)
I think the main issue of this is not how to creat them in the game with the current tools, the options above work out pretty well. The issue to me is that there would need to be a big write up of the background of them for non ED players.
Only if you are gonna retcon them as having existed since before SURGE. As a (human) metavariant, they don't really need any more background than is given for nartaki. For those who know ED, the connection would be clear. For those who don't, it doesn't take any more explanation than (say) shape shifters (less, actually).
I think the main problem T. Skrang changelings / metvariants would face is the pop culture portrayal of evil lizard men / man eaters / V style aliens. Which still leaves them better off then ghouls and other infected, if maybe less able to blend.
Well, to each their own, i picked "i don't care"
Obsidimen would be right up my alley i think O.o
As for Gargoyles: ASK BULL, i think he had a template made up for them in either SR2 or SR3 . .
Also: That Conan animated show ROCKS!
As soon as i can find it in german i will not leave my room untill i have watched it all <.<
Obsidimen would be right up my alley i think O.o
As for Gargoyles: ASK BULL, i think he had a template made up for them in either SR2 or SR3 . .
Also: That Conan animated show ROCKS!
As soon as i can find it in german i will not leave my room untill i have watched it all <.<
I've always wanted to try and stat out the kroot in SR. More bird men than lizzard well some place inbetween if you want to be specific. Beaks and extratigant hair are a must along with movement speed boosts and a high agliity. Oh Kroot I have a love afir with them ever since I messed around with the 40kRPG rule for them. Kroot melee adept with grate leap and traceless walk and gliding would make a nice jungle fighter too.
I once built Darkwing Duck using Surge . . .
Did he have a 1 logic, a 1 intuition, and Unlucky Quality?
Don't remember, i am at work right now.
It was a Dwarf albino with feathers, satyr-legs and a duck bill.
i think he had higher body and agility, with lower strength but higher intelligence and medium charisma. .
and stubborn as a mule of course . .
but yes, bad luck and cursed luck was in the flaws segment i think.
It was a Dwarf albino with feathers, satyr-legs and a duck bill.
i think he had higher body and agility, with lower strength but higher intelligence and medium charisma. .
and stubborn as a mule of course . .
but yes, bad luck and cursed luck was in the flaws segment i think.
QUOTE (Marcus @ Sep 30 2010, 12:59 AM)
We haven't a had a new race book in forever. I think meta-varients are kinda stale and there a couple race that haven't been translated over from earthdawn. So don't be haters! Do we even have good stats for IEs in 4th? I don't think so. Race Book 4tw.
You are, of course, assuming that Earthdawn is the same world as Shadowrun. I know, I know, there's a lot of hints and tips about them being the same; however, it should be noted that nowhere in the rules for the games does it mention that. The game designers can talk all they want about something, but if they didn't make a rule for it it really doesn't matter what they think.
Earthdawn ≠ Shadowrun.
QUOTE (Grinder @ Sep 30 2010, 05:53 AM)
...once the mana level is high enough.
That was kind of my point^^
QUOTE
You are, of course, assuming that Earthdawn is the same world as Shadowrun. I know, I know, there's a lot of hints and tips about them being the same; however, it should be noted that nowhere in the rules for the games does it mention that. The game designers can talk all they want about something, but if they didn't make a rule for it it really doesn't matter what they think.
It goes a bit beyond "hints" though. You have the same characters, the same bad guys, the same ancient civilizations, the same languages, artifacts, etc, etc. Sure, the writers have been coy about actually saying it outright, but after that many clues, do they really have to?
That's not to say that individual GM's couldn't say that they aren't the same, but as it stands, there's every indication that they are the same universe, and none to say they aren't.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Sep 30 2010, 10:54 AM)
Sure, the writers have been coy about actually saying it outright, but after that many clues, do they really have to?
Yes they do.
You know, JRR Tolkein's elves call them selves the Eldar. So do the Eldar from Warhammer 40,000. In fact, WH40K Eldar share a lot of similarities to JRR Tolkein's elves. Are we then to assume that they are one in the same?
Of course not.
Can we assume that SR = ED? We could, but it follows the same logic from JRRT and WH40K.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Sep 30 2010, 06:54 PM)
That was kind of my point^^
Just wanted to underline that.
Obsidimen is a very silly name.
I do not like puns.
I do not like puns.
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 30 2010, 12:35 AM)
well, my iguana took a bite out of my wrist when I was changing out it's water and it's sun lamp went out so....
Good point.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 30 2010, 01:09 PM)
Yes they do.
You know, JRR Tolkein's elves call them selves the Eldar. So do the Eldar from Warhammer 40,000. In fact, WH40K Eldar share a lot of similarities to JRR Tolkein's elves. Are we then to assume that they are one in the same?
Of course not.
Can we assume that SR = ED? We could, but it follows the same logic from JRRT and WH40K.
You know, JRR Tolkein's elves call them selves the Eldar. So do the Eldar from Warhammer 40,000. In fact, WH40K Eldar share a lot of similarities to JRR Tolkein's elves. Are we then to assume that they are one in the same?
Of course not.
Can we assume that SR = ED? We could, but it follows the same logic from JRRT and WH40K.
If they spoke the same language, had the same biology and culture, were led by leaders named Elrond and Galadrial, who wore rings of power named Vilya and Nenya, spoke of their old cities of Lothlorian, Gondolin, and Rivendell, and their past struggles with Morgoth and Sauron, etc - yes, I would be forced to conclude that the Warhammer authors intended for their Eldar to be the same as Tolkien's.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 30 2010, 04:06 PM)
You are, of course, assuming that Earthdawn is the same world as Shadowrun. I know, I know, there's a lot of hints and tips about them being the same; however, it should be noted that nowhere in the rules for the games does it mention that. The game designers can talk all they want about something, but if they didn't make a rule for it it really doesn't matter what they think.
Earthdawn ≠ Shadowrun.
Earthdawn ≠ Shadowrun.
What sort of rule would you expect? Replacing dice pools with steps? Rules are mechanics. Background fiction is where you learn about the setting, and the background fiction is rather clear in this case. If not the same exact world, they are at least linked in some way (say, one being a metaplaner reflection of the other).
Otherwise SR3 and SR4 wouldn't be the same setting, since the rules changed alot between that two editions. 
Earthdawn was written/developed from FASA's background notes for ShadowRun 1.
The cross over links are /huge/
Harlequin
Passions
Dunkie, Lofwyr, GhostWalker
The Enemy
The races being identical
The name of the Elven Queen being the /same/
The Elven Language
The Ork Language
The Trolls being identical in description
The Magic Cycle
I mean you could go on for a long time.
Earthdawn does in fact = Shadowrun
The cross over links are /huge/
Harlequin
Passions
Dunkie, Lofwyr, GhostWalker
The Enemy
The races being identical
The name of the Elven Queen being the /same/
The Elven Language
The Ork Language
The Trolls being identical in description
The Magic Cycle
I mean you could go on for a long time.
Earthdawn does in fact = Shadowrun
QUOTE
The game designers can talk all they want about something, but if they didn't make a rule for it it really doesn't matter what they think.
I am a game designer and I do not approve this message.
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 30 2010, 02:54 PM)
I am a game designer and I do not approve this message.
I am a game designer and I agree with Neurosis.
Just because there are no rules and mechanics for something as ephemeral as ShadowRun's link to Earthdawn, doesn't mean that the two aren't part of the same universe. Because they are even if now they're owned by two companies who came to a mutual agreement that, "yes, the connections that exist still exist, but we're not going to create any new ones. We're both free to develop the product we own as we see fit."
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