It's not hard at all if you have either a high Agility or are counting Athletics pools, which have tons of situational modifiers and the almost absurdly good Synthacardium. Likewise social skill tests are easily bloated, but that's kind of a red herring since those are always opposed tests and so dicepool sizes are pretty relative. That's part of why that social dice software is so often disparaged here on dumpshock-- the minimal cost smacks more of power creep than alternate character advancement. If everyone has an extra handful of dice than really all that happens is you'll see less glitches.

Relevant natural attributes maxed out or nearly maxed out.

Mystic Adept with multiple Improved Ability adept powers and Kinesics.

A couple of foci-sustained attribute-boosting spells.

Maxed out commlink/drone ratings - when rigging or hacking, the equipment ratings replace many of your attribute ratings for skill tests.

Specifically:

Negotiate: base 3, Improved Ability 2, Charisma 5, Kinesics 2, Chatty quality (+2), Empathy software 6, specialization in Bargaining (+2) = 22 dice, capped at 20. Street Cred is currently 5 but has no effect due to cap.

Gunnery: base 2, Improved Ability 1, Command 6, Optimization (Command, +1), Specialization (Ballistics, +2), TacNet 3, Smartlink (+2) = 17 dice.

Note that this particular character cannot use any sort of cyberware or bioware.

Most of that was gained at character creation. She's also pretty good at hacking and investigative skills, and her other social skills all hover around 14-16 dice.

[edit] corrected numbers


-k

Well, breaking the Improved Ability rules sure explains a lot.

Ah, yeah, right, sorry. Was misremembering my sheet - I've boosted the Negotiate and Gunnery skills in game play since the numbers above, which is why my mental math was off. Corrected.

That only drops the dice pools by a few points, though.



-k

Except it's not so rosy as all that. For one thing, you had to go over 1 or 2 skill ranks so you could round up to Improved Ability 2. Empathy Software shouldn't be super common by fluff, but that depends somewhat on how you interpret the emotitoy's capabilities. In any case it's a pretty safe to say that a Fixer or Johnson will have made the investment and can match up with you pretty well on that end. That's effectively like an 8 point swing against what you listed earlier. Which, hey, is fine. I'm not of the opinion that you gotta be a pornomancer to be a half decent Face. But in any case, having 14-16 dice after Empathy software in the other Social Skills on an Adept with 5 Charisma and Kinesics is pretty meh. You'll get past situations in which your opposition doesn't have Empathy Software very easily, but that says more about the power of Empathy software than it does about the cost effectiveness of avoiding a default.

As far as the Gunnery thing goes, well, you paid 10 bps to beat Pilot+Targeting by 6 dice. That's a fairly tough call between cost effectiveness vs. Murphy's Law. It's not a bad choice, but I usually go all-in with that area or make do with a pirated Pilot 6 myself. With the way drones stomp all over recoil I usually cheerfully wide full auto my way past li'l concerns like accuracy anyway.

Well, as I pointed out, the character in question cannot use implants at all.

Someone who can is likely to be able to boost their dice further.



-k

Before I posted on Dumpshock, I hadn't noticed that Emotitoys exist.

After posting on Dumpshock, I'm going to continue pretending that Emotitoys don't exist. : )

That's kind of my point though. There's so many high grade dice pool modifiers in this game that 2 dice for 4 build points is a bit mediocre for something you can get for karma a run later. Off the top of my head you can build an ork Mystic Adept that fraggin' defaults to 9 dice with no situational modifiers on any social test and hits 11 dice after 10 karma. That's what inspired the KarmaGen comment earlier-- my stance is less about case-by-case effectiveness and more about mid-term opportunity costs. I would say that it's less relevant for Awakened and Technomancers in general though. They have enough juicy options for their karma that simply backfilling dump stats and buying up low rank skills and specializations often ends up taking a backseat to hitting higher grades and buying spells, foci and complex forms. On the other hand, Samurai can really thrive by becoming renaissance men in play.

Hey, I refuse to use Emotitoys!

...I use Empathy software. All the cheese, none of the social drawbacks.





-k

How do you define area? Without specialization, my character has a 10+ in every combat dice pool he has just 1 rank in. Would that quantify as three areas? Close combat, firearms, heavy weapons?

I would say no. Those are all basically Agility+Skill To Hurt People. The game isn't terribly granular so there's obviously a lot of overlap between any given two ranged weapon skills. Close Combat is a bit of a special case given that one of its useful functions-- as a melee defense pool-- actually relies on Reaction as opposed to Agility. So unless you also have Dodge or Gymnastics, you might be able to dish it out some with 10 or so dice but that's not enough to take your own medicine on its own. The silver lining here, I guess, is that you must be talking about a character with tweaked Agility so at least you can sneak around some.

There are no social drawbacks to Emotitoys unless your vindictive GM invents them.

Agreed: AGI 7+ on anyone basically lets them able to handle combat, infiltration, etc. It's one of the easier 'multirole' areas, and appropriately common.

The reason I ask.... 4-5 is about the number of role areas that are present in Shadowrun. I would be expecting someone that can throw 10+ dice on every check. That is excessive. 4-5 areas of general function would imply that there's closer to 10-12 areas of expertise total, and I think that using average skill level for a skill groups as a base is a pretty good idea.

So for instance, if I have 9 agility, with 2 blade, 2 unarmed, and 0 club. My close combat proficiency would be (11+11+/3 or 10. My athletics skill group would be (8+8+8+11)/4 or 8.75.

But then that doesn't help you assess skills that don't fall in skill groups.

I think most GM's who've heard of the things are vindictive towards them. Mine is.

Fortunately, it is very easy to house-rule out. Just mentally delete the last sentence of the page on p. 60 of Arsenal.

Empathy Software/EmoToys helping out with Judge Intentions tests is fine. Having them give six dice on all social tests for a lousy 600 Nuyen and availability -- is pure, rancid, horrible cheese.

I have no idea why it made it into the rules to begin with.

Because of similar software being developed in RL combined with helping the troll gun-nut not bash his face in when talking to someone? I admit Im cheating a bit with empathy software but at least I have to pay for it, have to have a commlink that supports it, and deal with the 'Oh we`ll just take that' situations where Id like to have a social bonus. Plus, considering Im playing an ork, I can use the bonus until the karma starts flowing.

Have you read the rest of 4th Edition? lol

the empathy software uses biological sensor data to read some one. Adept could negate that with kinesic power and or cool resolve. I agree is is a poorly written program. A comlink would now have the sensors to use the program, a drone would.

Agreed, Neurosis: the fundamental problem with Emotitoys is how huge their bonus is, and how small the price is. They should be limited to Rating 3, for starters, if the bonus is a straight-up DP boost. Most other Sensor Software is limited, and Empathy should match that.

There should also be rules, as Triggvi mentions, for reducing their effectiveness: wearing a mask, special powers/Qualities, etc.

There's no reason you can't connect that commlink to the necessary sensors, though. The Emotitoy simply has them built-in (and again, should cost more because of it).

*nod* I always rather figured the mounting dice to the opposing pool would negate the bonus in those kind of situations. As for linking the commlink to sensors, thats what I thought you had to do anyway. Dosent make sense any other way, but then again RAI vs RAW here. Id think simply knowing the emotitoy was *around* would negate some of its effectiveness as the Johnson or whomever would be going out of there way to fake it out, mess with it via drugs\augments\powers. Its harder to tell if someone's got contact lenses with the right enhancements skinlinked to a commlink running Empware rating 6.

It *is* what you have to do, unless you use the Emotitoy, which has its own sensors and node.

There's a limit to how much it really offsets things though. Fluff wise, the description of Kinesics says you have complete control over subconscious nonverbal communication. Mechanically, however, it's not really so complete, apparently, since, for one thing, there's different ranks of Kinesics. It also says straight up in the rules that it offers a die per level vs. tests to determine someone's emotional state even vs. technological and magical means. So, mechanically speaking, Kinesics offsets rather than negates. It kinda sucks, but there it is. I guess the best reaching-for-straws explanation is that there's a difference between being able to control some of your subconscious tics and being able to control them in an artful, natural manner that puts people at ease. Being able to smile convincingly isn't a particularly useful trick if you don't know when to deploy it. In that sense I guess Kinesics is as much about reading your mark as it is controlling yourself.

Id think the ranks were more about the level of skill with the control. After all, technically I have complete control over the muscles in my body, but Im sure as hell not going to be fencing or playing NBA basketball or other such things without alot of training.

mechanically you are right. cool resolve would add bonus dice against the program because it is an opposed test.

Common sense wise.

You would need a full sensor suite to use an empathy program. Pheromone sniffers (biochemical changes), thermal imagining, multiple cameras getting 3d facial and body position data, micro phones (vocal analysis). In reality you would have to have a secondary sensor suite somewhere linked to the comlink.

Well, if we're doing 'in reality' there wouldnt be pheromones at all And given the ridiculous levels of 2070 technology, having stereoptic 3D extrapolation, thermal imaging and the detailed kind of visual motion detection wouldnt really need to be that big a deal. Id discount vocal sensor data as too unreliable.

Common sense is a very tricky thing to claim.

I agree that a camera (that's already plenty for '3D'), thermal, audio, and (*maybe*) scent could each provide useful information. That's not to say that Empathy software requires all of them:
If you want to factor them in, just require one per Rating. Lie Detection gives a bonus for having thermal, and it doesn't even use voice analysis. If you change Empathy to work like Lie Detection (rolls its own Test, instead of a straight DP bonus), then perhaps give 2 per sensor type (equal to the Lie Detection Thermal bonus).

I do agree that voice analysis should be an option in the Sensor Software rules. As it is, it's mostly just 'Camera Software'; there's one Thermal (still a camera), and two audio (neither analyzes voices beyond matching).

There is a biochemical component to smell. Vocal analysis is very reliable when taken with other data. We are not taking lie detection.

Adding thermal and biochemical and vocal analysis and body language analysis makes the projection model better.

Sort of a social TacNet at this point. For the right game, this level of sensor/software complexity would be neat. I understand why the RAW might not want to be that complex, but there's no reason the Empathy software couldn't simply function just like the Lie Detection (for different purposes).

Getting away from the game balance/power creep issues, my biggest problem with empathy software isn't its ability to analyze social cues, but the fact that you can use it to get an advantage in social situations in real time.

Sorry, but I can't see that. Being involved in a stressful social interaction such as negotiating with a Johnson will already take most of a runner's concentration. I can't see that runner analyzing a bunch of data scrolling down on a display link at the same time. Analyzing a recording afterwards to see if the Johnson showed any nervous tics or signs of lying about something, I could accept. But in real time? No.

It's not data, it's analysis. The user probably just sees instructions: 'push harder', 'back off', 'bribe', 'smile', that kinda thing. With a little practice, it's just like having another sense. (Same with all AR).

'PRESS X NOW!!'
'LEFT!'
'TRIANGLE!'
...
Now we take Quicktime Events out of video games and into social interaction!

While QTEs are the devil… yes. AR means life is a video game. Empathy software is aimhack.

Don't forget, also, that AR is full simsense: emotion, touch, smell, color, *anything*. You could simply *know* that you had to smile then, or laugh, or threaten. 100% realtime, fast-as-thought.

But doesn't that basically turn empathy software into a kind of Activesoft, that replaces your own skill rather than enhances it?

Given how people can flub QTEs, or how I'm sure someone could hack empathy software of crash it... the resulting glitches or social gaffes could be hilarious.

Johnson(secretly Humanis, professionally hiding distaste): You all have been hired for your strict professionalism and ability to get the jo--
Face(Ork, following prompt that says 'open for romantic overture'): Are you free this weekend? I'd love to take you out to dinner and a movie.
Johnson: .... what?
Hacker: [[Dude, I just tracked her down. She's part of Humanis]]
Face: [[DAMMIT glitchy software!]]

Maybe? Activesofts are a mess to begin with, so who knows? If you're getting +6 to all Social tests, isn't that vastly better than an ActiveSoft anyway?

I definitely agree, some combination of tweaks needs to be made, but I don't think they should be justified by faulty setting-science logic, that's all. The main thing that makes sensor software what it is is that it requires sensors. So, my suggestion remains this: require more sensors, and dial back the bonus.

Yes, you certainly can hack anything hackable. It's a good idea, too.

Yep yep. Maybe it takes all the non-visual cues and turns them into a colored halo behind the person's head (like a mood ring, except accurate) -- so if someone is nervous, you get slivers of yellow light instead of a pure blue circle, or something.

This is why you have a dummy commlink and then the real one that's set to autistic mode to stop those durned kids with their datajacks or the TM's being all 'In ur dataspace haxin ur nodes'. But seriously, if you require more sensors *AND* dial back the bonus, why bother? Im not going to invest in a full sensor rig that'll be blatantly obvious for like a +1 or +2. Perhaps combo it? Each level of defined sensor capability raises the level of empathy software you can run(sure, go ahead and buy rating 6...you only have the sensors for rating 2, and thats what you`ll get!).

The really weird thing about the +6 being so much better than activesofts is just how intricate social interactions are and all the myriad motivations people have for the ways they're acting. I've never had a problem with realizing when a girlfriend was angry with me. But man, did the drek hit the fan when she realized that I didn't really know why she was angry with me.

Well, yeah, but that's where the other social skills come in with the idea of dancing around the idea, or using noncommittal phrasing, redirecting the conversation, inciting emotional responses in the other party to make them forget the original faux pas, etc. Which is why I like the idea of empathy software in some respects; it can tell you to stop pushing a subject or the he\she's getting angry, but if your charisma is 1 or 2 with a few meager social skills(or none at all) you're still not likely to know how to take ADVANTAGE of the information like someone with cha 5+ and a shit-ton of social skills.

Teryon, I'm sure you're in the minority there. A shadowrunner will almost certainly 'invest' in sensors (that you *know* they'd already have), for the +3 bonus I suggested to all social tests. It's a big deal, and cheap.

You're right, the most interesting thing is to let the bonus scale with the sensors, so that you get the best bonus that either your software or sensors can support, but no better. Perhaps +1 per the following sensors: camera, thermal, audio, and sniffer? That way, you can only get +1 or +2 over a videochat, and maybe +3 or +4 in person. With the best software to allow the full bonus, of course.

Teryon, on the one hand, I sort of know what you mean. On the other, I just keep thinking "Good god, is 6 a whole lot of dice for something that's works in all social situations." A social adept should seriously be using it all the time even if by all rights he'd probably be thinking "Yeah, tell me something I don't know" after every suggestion.

I think we all agree that +6 to all social tests is too much/too unrestricted, *regardless* of cost. I mean, that's more than (well, maybe equal to) their original DP for Joe Average.

I rather like the idea of limiting it by sensors. I can imagine there would be some meet-and-greet locales which would have booths with an entire suite of upgraded sensors installed, and could rent out use of those sensors to Johnsons, runners, or fixers so they'd have an advantage over whomever they're meeting with. Chairs that check body temperature, hidden cameras across a bunch of wavelengths, biometric sensors for heart rate... it's definitely a fun idea. Now you know why that Johnson would only meet you on the 3rd floor of Dante's Inferno in the corner booth! It's the only place where his expensive empathy software can give maximum bonuses.

Don't forget that you can get heartrate remotely: motion sensors (which use ultrasound) and UWB radar (IIRC) can do that. That adds another layer to this: you can always check and see if active sensors are being used *on* you (in addition to the earlier Kinesics/etc. resistance ideas).

Probably am, Im also likely envisioning sensors as being a wee bit larger and more obvious than they are as far as the rules and fluff are concerned. Not only does it give the opposition a clue at least on how to bugger the stuff, they could go as far as taking away said devices or whatever options there are for precision elimination of electronics. Still, sensor scaling is the best bet, even though I thoroughly question the use of sniffers(on humans anyway; metahumans? perhaps different story). At any rate I can easily pick up +3 just with a commlink(audio addon, claim hard of hearing) and modded contact lenses by this houserule





I picture it more as elimination of grunt work. Let the software focus on the more mundane social cues leaving the social adept able to keep an eye out for the way subtler stuff, or the analysis portion that takes 'Uncomfortable about topic X, seems to be lying about related fields, slight twitch of index finger when drinking' and concludes 'Shit, the Johnson's setting us up!'

Thing is, you can't really turn a lot of that superficial stuff off because you do an awful lot of it reflexively already. For example, two people having an agreeable conversation will tend to fall into similar rhythms with their speech patterns-- one person often unconsciously changes their speech pattern to match the other's or else they both meet somewhere in the middle. That's part of why it's often easy to tell just by voices if two people are getting along even if you don't speak the language. Hell, there's some evidence that a lot of "charming" people aren't particularly witty or smart or any of that other stuff we tend to attribute to them. Sometimes they're just like a good bassist-- you can plug them in with any partner and they'll still find the rhythm that signals "Hey, we're getting along!"

Like most reflexes, if you put enough training into it you'd STOP doing them, and start being able to control it. I wager at least some people in RL like actors(of course, could be talking out of ass here) pull this sort of thing. At least the better ones. Id wager in Shadowrun this sort of thing is more common since any revealing info can and will be use against you.

This gets me to thinking... how about treat it EXACTLY like Improved Ability, except it remains bonus dice instead of a full skill increase?

Limit the bonus dice to half of the actual skill rating.



-k

Oh, actors try, but for the most part they fail at it or at least are unnaturally still. That's part of why you'll commonly read that specific pairings work well together and that in comedy-- a genre where it's vitally important that people seem likeable even if they are often behaving badly-- people prefer to work with same circle of actors. It's all because chemistry is a REALLY hard thing to fake. That's part of why actors are often cast in roles they didn't initially intend to audition for. It's not that they're bad, necessarily, but what they have to do--and with whom-- can have a huge impact on things. I find it a bit telling that a lot of people hailed as our best actors are people known for taking parts where the character isn't very socially adept or is a bit of a loner, like Robert De Niro. It's simply a lot easier to convince people that you're aloof than it is to convince people that you can walk into a room and build a rapport with anyone. You can also make a very real argument that the whole concept behind method acting is the notion that if you are "into character" then you don't have to try so hard to fake things to begin with.