I'm playing a SR4 game as a KE officer in Seattle who happens to have a 12 year old daughter who is about to turn 13. She's getting a comm for her b-day, but originally was asking for a datajack. My character is very pro-cyberware and really has no problem with this (other than the fact she wants to buy her a beta grade datajack and that costs muchas dough, nothing but the best for her angel), but there are a few issues:

1.KE officer (mother) is an Ork and the child (biological) is a human. According to rules there's an 85% chance that the child will turn into a Ork sometime during puberty (or later or sooner). If she goblinizes (the mother and daughter are very aware this will happen, just a matter of time) would the datajack potentially worsen health problems connected to goblinization?

2.The child will be 13. Though I think the head stops growing in size around that age, I'm not completely sure.

3.Socially it's a little fuzzy when it is acceptable for children to have cyberware in middle class society.


I know much of this really depends on the GM, but I'm wanting some thoughts on the matter. We try to play with a sense of psychological realism. So these details matter. How have you handled cyberware in children in your games? have you dealt with this before?

Cyber is lame and passé. She only wants bio, or for this, trodes. (Teeny-bopper POV, 2070.)

Goblinization still happens? I thought they were now born orks. :/

in the SR4 book under Ork it describes that if a human is born to an ork, theres a 95% chance of them becoming an ork (got the original % wrong).

That also raises another question. When is it ok to install bioware?

And trodes are lame.

Trodes are more elegant, because *not* installing metal in your skull is inherently better. Again, from the POV of a non-shadowrunner (for a runner, it's just good sense).

Well, i never read anything official on that... and nano-maintenance should work around many problems with growing too. So i would base it on what system it is.

Some "easy" ware and static systems should be fine, even in young age: Auto-injectors, something like that.

Heavy modifications should be expensive to continously correct every few months though: all Cyberlimbs, Cybereyes & Headware.

And there are those things which really shouldn't be implanted: Bone lacing, reflex booster /MbW, internal comlink etc.

I think bioware could be implanted a lot earlier (except those playing complete havok on biological functions like Suprathyroid gland - or any GLANDS)

And with genetech it is even the earlier - the better. Best in vitro to save cash.

I think the Datajack fallf between category 1 and 2... might be able to implant it early but has to checked on a lot and many corrections have to be made to intigrate it better into the growing complexity of the brain.

Otaku had to have Datajacks back in the day...

interesting thought. too late for this kid though.

Eh, there are stories discussing raising kids in the matrix. I doubt middle class america approves of open cyberware, I'd call it the same as kids getting tatoos today. It's not as big a deal, as they can now restore the essence lose if they later change their minds. But how happy are mom's when their daughter get the tramp stamp? Naturally it will be up to the individual families, I'm sure it will run the gauntlet like any other PTA issue.

There are lots of neurological and cognitive changes that happen in the brain through the teen years right up to about the age of 21. I suspect medical advice to mom would be to wait.

I am totally on the other side on this. Having a datajack installed shows ambition and a sense of quality. Trodes will never be as good.

Also cyber is established, and i think still going strong, even as bioware gets hyped a lot. For example i think that if you are a wageslave who gets somehow promoted to a higher level, NOT taking a loan from the corp and enhancing oneself with an attention co-processor, internal comlink or other systems is a grave insult and will bar you from more advancement.

IF you have children AND disposable income, NOT to invest heavily into the "Future of the Corporation" by enhancing your children (best by genetech) is seen as selfish, too.

Getting your genius son (who already has like 3-4 genemods) a sleep regulator for his enrollment on corp-university would be a nice gift too (along with a car) in upper classes. It is all about "a BETTER FUTURE for your kids AND YOUR CORP".

"Cyberware is for grown-ups" -> only children who wish to imitate adults get cyberware -> 105% of children want cyberware.

Unless human psychology will change over the next 60 years more than it has in the previous 6,000, children will want whatever augmentations they see on cool adults. What's cool? Whatever the corporations in control of your local media want to sell. So the cyber vs. bio vs. 'trodes debate really only matters if you don't watch corporate programming, otherwise they've already decided what you will want and are offering it for a reasonable price.

If cyberware is supposed to be maintained, like with regular visits to a doctor or biotech facility, then I see no problem with installing headware in a 13 year old. The head isn't going to grow all that much, the brain is pretty stable, and whatever changes do occur can be accommodated on your semi-annual maintenance visit.

Cheers, -- N

Ambition and quality? What on earth could you be basing that on? The trend of medicine is toward less-invasive whenever possible, not more.

If the trodes perform the DNI function identically (and they do), they're the less-invasive and better option. For insane people (shadowrunners), there are situations where the inferior option is useful (the vaunted 'what if I'm captured?' defense), but that's not a normal, pop-cultural concern for a teenager.

Obviously, there are things that cyber does uniquely, but this isn't one of them.

Trodes should have a penalty to use. (Why they don't i don't really know... forced balance?). But they are described as giving "not as clear signal". People who really liked their Simsense/BTL are all described as using a datajack.

I also guess that trodes are uncomfortable, maybe enduce migranes (After all you are using them 16 hours a day as your job as a data-analyst... hoping to get to new paygrade). And datajacks cost like what 500 nuyen standard grade. (Of course you can't be caught with that bad quality as a higher up). Much cheaper for YOU to buy that once as to always have to have some trodes... painstakingly get them on your head (messing up your hair). Sometimes they fall off in the middle of something important. BAH. Installed is the way to go.

Okay, you're absolutely right: if you *invent* a half-dozen ways trodes are worse, then they're worse. In the book, they're described as functioning 100% identically, and being comfortably (zero problems) worn as headbands, hats, etc.; and they never 'fall off'. Hell, nanopaste. I'm not sure what your point about 'cheaper' is, though: trodes cost 50¥. I guess you *could* buy more expensive versions (theoretically, ultra-luxury versions of anything in the book do exist).

Also, you're taking a datajack testimonial from BTL users? Pardon me if I don't trust junkies to be the most refined.

Hehe. I do appreciate that you're not really talking about the rules, but speculating about the setting (just as I was earlier). However, it's only fair to assume that the rules exist in the setting, so things work as we're told they work, right?

Maybe... but the book also says a lot of other stuff that doesn't make sense with the rules. I will go with fluff over rules.

For example page 187 in unwired "Playback Gear" it says a lot of stuff, making sense (i guess).

Just because there is no -1 response or -1 die to matrix actions with trodes doesn't mean they are as good as hardwired. (And how could they?) they are clumsily projecting energy into your brain and try to read responses. It just can't work as good as having a neural network integrated into all the layers of thinking and experiencing.

I think that's exactly what it means: they're exactly as good. They're *elegantly* accessing your brain without the *need* to clumsily hardwire metal into your pristine neurons. See how it works both ways?

'Simfreaks' are obviously unreliable sources, the 2070 equivalent of those morons who swear the vacuum tubes, vinyl, and $100 gold Monster cables give better audio. I mean, really: "Any simfreak will tell you…", "The same simfreak will also tell you…"? Psh, I say!

What about this:Also, screw fluff forever. … Just kidding, mostly. ;D

I don't think it's that insane someone might want a datajack. Whether Yerameyahu likes it or not invasive surgery is a norm in Shadowrun and the vast majority of people don't get enough cyberware for essence worries to ever be an issue. And anyway, datajacks can be engraved, they're cheap, they can be used as a direct fibre optic link to a device rather than futzing around with wireless, they don't have to be applied or worn and most importantly of all, a lot of people already have them. They may be on their way out from a pure utility standpoint, but I would suspect that they still have a bit of a cultural cachet attached to them in some circles. Having a datajack simply is not viewed as a big deal anymore. A touch outdated and a slightly odd choice for a kid? Perhaps. But people stopped viewing the invasive surgery part as a big deal right around the same time they started having their eyeballs swapped out for that new neon model. I will say one thing though: the marketing departments must have really dropped the ball if a teen girl still wants a datajack over dietware or a clean metabolism. We have anorexic and bulemic girls all over the place now, even corporations can't cut out the middle man and just pump Kate Moss right into their DNI.

There's also the added benefit that if you have body-ware installed, you can have it run through your datajack rather than having wireless signals slaved to the comm making it so that hackers have to have access to the DNI if they are going to hack body-ware. Course having bioware nullifies this problem, but bioware doesn't cover everything as cyberware does.

Like trodes or not, datajack is good regardless for DNI non hackable connections. Anyway, now I'm digressing.

If there is anything 4A has done its open up more options for characters to go into various fields. It is counterproductive to put forward things that make that less possible. Integration and broadening of options is for the best, for a list of reasons, but at most basic level the ability to involve all the characters in ever portion of the world is really taking the game forward. Trodes are great example of this. They are better then Datajacks, And that is fine. Datajacks are now a fashion accessory, and that is cool. The majority of runner pc i have seen do spend a list a portion of their points in to "being cool".

I would strongly suggest that they implement some kind of genetic treatment that allows character to buy the 5 Pt Astral Perception Merit to continue this trend.

Well, i guess we both have our firm ground and we both like our gameworld the way it is, and no one will change to the other side *g*. But i still liked discussing it, but I got no more on that.

In my game people will still have holes and chips in their heads, even years into the future (Until we can have it genecoded - like technomancer ability). And yes, they are researching it in my game.

I think you're a little over the top there, Whipstitch. I'm just discussing with you guys. We're being a little hyperbolic, and definitely subjective. It's certainly nothing personal.

Still, the question is for a really young kid, not a veteran criminal mercenary. Yes, a datajack possibly has some minor theoretical advantages (as I said earlier) for the criminal mercenary on the go. Incidentally, I shouldn't have to remind anyone that trodes have *exactly* the same wireless/wired options as a datajack: wireless, fiber, skinlink, etc.

I don't really think I'm being over the top. You get datajacks and stuff like dietware or sleep regulators implanted in the same bodyshops where you can get a boob job or a facelift and I highly doubt they spend much time convincing people that one type of sub 0.2 essence implant is more dangerous to get installed than another--Honestly, these things take an hour or two to get installed and then you take 3 stun. That's less suffering than you'll go through with most cosmods. They slap a patch on you and you go on your merry way. I'm not saying that people don't raise an eyebrow when some walking tank with a half inch of dermal plating comes waltzing in. That's a different ball of wax than getting your iris tinted and has some obvious implications as far as intent goes. But I do suspect that the people of the Sixth World think of a lot of this stuff more like say, a trip to the dentist than they think of it as scary invasive surgery. And while plenty of people don't like going to the dentist, a big portion of them still go anyway and the rest of us just don't really mind that much to begin with.

No, that's not what I meant. I meant you were being too serious, that's all.

I tend to be serious when I disagree with people, yeah.

Too serious.

And I didn't say that people were scared of datajacks being invasive. I said that they're less modern and elegant than equivalent non-invasive options, to a very young girl.

Nope. It gets across the intended effect.

And, as I pointed out, you're arguing against something I didn't say. Much too serious.

IF you can find a Doc that hasn't swallowed the corporations "buy a datajack ASAP, its totally safe" propaganda and expense account...

****

Which brings in another factor, of course.

Corporations probably market datajacks aggressively. Somebody buys your trodes, great. Next month, your competitor makes a nicer set, your client switches.

Now, sell them a datajack and its not so easy to switch. And you can be sure that unless they have new surgery for a completely new datajack from your competitor, then they will have to pay for your firmware update service to keep their datajack glitch free. Plus I bet plenty of companies have a "warranty not valid if our Datajack is plugged into our competitors product" style licence, hence ensuring that the average (non-runner) consumer with a datajack buys the rest of their gear from the same company - forever. There's probably firmware that brings up a warning about warranty invalidity and "this product may harm your datajack or neural structure" every time you plug in something made by the competition.

With that much money to be sucked out of locked-in consumers, you can bet the corporations aggressively market how useful Datajacks are for anyone who can afford them.

And you're arguing like I'm angry or something. You made the point that less invasive is inherently better. I'm inclined to agree with you from a purely practical standpoint, but I used to be a piercer and based on how many kids I've kicked out I'd say that a lot of your 13 year old pop culture obsessed kids don't really put much thought into practicality-- I've had a parent drag their kid in and accuse me of piercing them when in reality the idiot got some dumb ass friend to use a nail. And in Shadowrun we're talking about a setting in which such a thing as relatively casual surgery exists. Basically, what I'm saying here is that I don't think your earlier point really mattered.

Not angry. Just serious.

I think your position is perfectly valid; obviously, there's a lot of augmentation in the world. However, I still think that a 12 year old non-street/low-class girl is likely to participate in a 'modern/future' culture. A datajack is not a piercing, as well. So, yes, 'retro-clunky chic' is possible, but most people (esp. young girls) like tiny new cell phones with features, not 'old-school' bricks.

An awful lot of young trends are based on old trends though. When you're young, everything is new. What matters is the messenger. That's why back in the late '90s there was a brief fad with some hipster kids were wearing hush puppies. If the right young person latches onto something it doesn't matter how old the subject is.

I agree. Both are solidly-precedented possibilities. I'm only saying that for *technology*, retro is rare in children. Retro-tech is more of a geeky adult's game.

Even if you can't agree, we can agree that hipsters should all die.

Nah, a lot of my best friends are hipsters. They're huge dorks and I want to beat them up sometimes though. It's an odd relationship, but one of makes REALLY good coffee.

Hehe, fair enough.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think that the corps have locked in everyone THAT badly, otherwise we would have heard about it in the fluff.

You reckon?

The only reason Microsoft allows us to use other browsers with their OS at all is because the governments force them to. You think the governments in 2070 are in any position to make any demands of Ares et al?

Its not an issue in game, because the rules don't differentiate between different brands of commgear that have the same level of performance. So it doesn't matter which brand of datajack you buy because it doesn't matter that you have to buy the rest of your gear from the same place (especially in the case of NPCs).

And it doesn't matter for runners, since they are generally in a position to not need the official firmware updates and could care less about clickwrap warranties - if their headware plays up they'll get a hardware specialist to fix it, not try to deal with Ares Customer Services "Please hold whilst we try to connect you..."

So a few touched on bioware, but not much. Is it thought that bioware can be more acceptable for teenagers than cyberware?

Bah, that's not marketing.

Marketing would want the customer with TRODES. Because you can sell them a new set of trodes every month, every time with some new designer color or fluff feature. AND that ongoing service contract for repairs & updates. They want you to buy a new set of trodes for every clothing outfit you own.

Datajacks are kinda harder to market that way.

Companies don't want you to buy one thing and then keep using it. They'd rather you bought the thing, and then buy the thing AGAIN over and over.






-k

Except, as I already mentioned, they might buy those trodes from a competitor.

Wheras if you can convince the consumer to have a datajack installed, and give them reasons to not use your competitors stuff with it, then you can ramp up the marketing to sell them a new *commlink* every month whilst being confident that they will continue to only buy the ones licenced to your company.

Kinda like the Xerox business model. They sell you the photocopier cheap, because they know you are then locked in to buying their overpriced toner for the next 10 years.

But competitor trodes wouldn't be compatible with the service contract. That you're locked into for ten years. But, you can get a new set of trodes every month! For a small fee of course. No, it's at a DISCOUNT, for a loyal customer! And you'll need to extend the service contract again of course, but you're with the company already anyhow, it's no big deal.

Really, the important bit IS the service contract.

Everything else is product to be sold with planned obsolescence so you can sell it over and over again.



-k

Hell i think you can get trodes in wrap around glasses.

Please stop passing your own biases off as A) Canon B) Having any correlation to what's represented in the setitng. Even allowing your option a datajack is outpatient surgery that is literally represented as having less medical complication then piercings have today.

Only munchkin's would really believe trodes are a better option and i will hate 4th edition forever for making them an equivalent option.

Sounds like you have *your* own biases. I'm the one going by the actual SR4 book.

A datajack is certainly not 'literally' less complicated than a piercing, today or in 2070.

True cyber had some age behind it in2050 by 2072-3 its almost dated in areas. The implantechnology in easy as pie as I can only guess better nanotechnology and machines really help the surgery in being fast and low intensity. Hell some cyber has likely has growth built in to it. While in 2070 trodes can do what a jack can almost still cant directly slot chips with them. in 2060 datajack where a must for matix use really and with the matrix being a big big thing I don't see data jack not being desgined so deveoping brains can use them. Other wise no deck could have been younger than 21 before learning to deck.

That's a good point. After all, there are repair nanites, etc.

Chip slots is a pretty dubious feature in 2070, too. Only BTL users need that, because everything else is just data whizzing around, right? ActiveSofts, KnowSofts, etc. don't need a chipjack these days. Even if they did, I'm not sure you couldn't easily connect that to the trodes.

True it clip it to trode all you need is a sim module. But jacks have mulitipul conetions for wires and at least one chip slot still plus it's hard to lose all the data in there when in in your skull.

They definitely de-emphasized that aspect of the game in SR4. Datajacks don't even list how many slots, etc. any more, and there used to be a number of chip-related add-ons, right? Now, everything can slot chips, everything can use fiber, everything is wireless, and non-cyber versions of the same thing (smartlink, DNI, etc.) function *identically*, not worse. I'm not even sure BTLs have to be on chips; I don't think *anything* has to be on chips, ever.

You also mentioned the sim module: as far as I can tell, datajacks and trodes equally require a sim module, but they can also equally-easily incorporate one. The rules seem slightly contradictory, but it's not a big deal.

You're right, Dumori (and others), that datajacks have some use (and I said that before); after all, my whole point is that they're just as effective as trodes. Especially if you get them as capacity instead of Essence, they can be handy. But they're not better.

It's my personal opinion (please note disclaimer, hehe) that this is indicative of the general push away from invasive versions of basic electronics. The external versions are cheaper, no Essence, no surgery, and exactly as effective. Simple economics, right?

I like the idea of corps 'pushing' cyber because it literally gives them product lock-in; on the other hand, maybe they'd push non-cyber versions because they can break and be replaced. After all, the modern trend is toward 'disposable' products, whether it's computers, phones, iPods, whatever.

Yes, I loved the old 'true believer' way as much as anyone (the 'you have to work and sacrifice for it' system), but it's not SR4. I assumed this thread was about SR4.

BLT deff still come on chips that tend to have an inbuilt one shot sim module to keep you buying. Also data-jacks suffer on the how many slots issue due to the same reasons we dont have memory issues any more by RAW you can slot every chip on earth and eery wire and have room if your GM lets you. That was lost only in the less book keeping push.

Right, that's what I was thinking. It's part of the streamlining, but that reflects on game-reality, too. 'No chips' is more streamlined: Matrix delivery of all data.

I dunno. It just says they self-erase after one use, but that could easily be accomplished with existing software rules. The rules for hot-sim modification specifically mentions using it for BTLs, which means they wouldn't need their own sim module (which, theoretically, costs an extra 100¥; why waste the money, even if the disposable version was cheaper?).

The BLT chips can be sloted with out a simmodule but downlaoded BLTs have to be run via a hot sim modula. Datajack still have a place even if its just for semi secure and "cheap" data storage and the runing of chips with out a com.