I know I do

That's why I said something akin to "most likely won't" - if they do that frequently enough it will tarnish their "good" name in the Shadows and all their business opportunities will dry up.

It's bad for business.

I think it's clear by now I disagree. A traditional investment model for illegal enterprise just doesn't work.

An organization with Tamanous' size and reputation doesn't need investors -and anyone wanting to invest goes with an above-board company anyway. You want to invest in a cartel then go with AZT. Yakuza, MCT. Triads, Wuxing. Vory, EVO. If you want to play the stocks game, then play the stocks game with companies offering stock.

If you believe that a criminal organization is offering stock options in the profitable industries of human trafficking and extortion, then I have an excellent bridge in Alaska that's up for sale you just cannot pass up.

Good luck, I think all the stocks for that company are accounted for. And their holders are secret, as per Aztlan Law.

That said, they have a lot of subsidiaries that are probably publicly traded.

So, which criminal organization supports/is supported by S-K? Ares? Fuch... Er, Novate... Bah! NeoNet?

Oh sure it does. You just tend to get some of your investment capital off dead hookers and invest that money into drug running.

Just because you follow a traditional investment model* doesn't mean it can't be in illegal things.

*By which we mean "not screwing the customer."

I want to say Knights of the Red...something. Jove, maybe. I think those were Celedyr's people.

Ares - Bugs, if Corp Guide is to be believed. An investment in Ares is an investment in mushisushi.
Horizon - 9x9. I wouldn't be surprised if MoM has some ties to Horizon now, as well as EVO. Perhaps Sons of Sauron a well.
S-K is...Lofwyr. He's the richest being on the planet, after all. I don't think he needs a gang to control, he has a corporation.

@Draco - If you want to 'invest' by pouring money into drugs and reaping the benefits, that's wonderful. It's not buying and exercising stock/options, which I took to be the original suggestion.

If you're going that way, though, it becomes less Shadowrunny and more Day-jobby, IMO.

Who says you can't buy stock in a drug cartel?
Last I checked organized crime was "lawful evil" and not "chaotic evil" (in that they follow rules, even if those aren't the government's laws: they don't act at random). I hear the Italian mob is actually a pretty safe career choice (at least, safer than some legal jobs with regards to physical health).

Back to OP - buy biodrones if your table can seem to make sense out of the stirrup interface rules. Bind Register a Machine Sprite into it and make it an ally. This works for more than just biodrones, but biodrones are cooler.

Invest in enough MCT FlySpies with good enough sensors to always be able to give yourself R4 TacNet bonuses, and buy the TacNet.

Get a better gun, or improve the one you have more. Same with armor. Post them and we can tell you how to do better. Does your table use all the armor rules from Arsenal? Standard armor, FFBA, and PPP can get you really, really high armor fairly easily.

Take a small chunk of your money and buy Survival Gear:

Where did this romanticized version of 'honor among thieves' come from?

I mean, seriously - what the fuck, man? You're talking about organizations that actively kill people that cross them, kill the families of people that cross them, and kill people that may tangenitally cross them - and you are expecting them to pay you a return on an investment because 'it's bad for business'?

You're expecting them to follow rules? Has the war between the Gulf Cartel and Los Zetas completely escaped people's notice?

I give up. Go crazy. You tell me how it works out after your GM stops laughing.

Rules? No.

But I would expect them to pay attention to their reputation.

Positive rep is hard to build and maintain, yet you need it for people to trust you enough to do business with you.

There's a concept called "market forces" that has nothing to do with rules or regulations and has everything to with trust, perception, and reputation.

Keep screwing people, and people stop doing business with you. Its that simple.

People that matter, anyhow. The desperate might keep coming to you, but they're penny-ante stuff. Having the poor and destitute as your customer base isn't ideal.

People get into the organized crime racket because it more or less works. There's a certain level of security in dealing with folks that have a reputation on the line, at least moreso than dealing with a random thug on the street. You buy <insert illicit item here> from them because their rep demands that they deliver on their promises.

Are there exceptions? Sure. If a OrgCrime group decides the hit to their rep is worth it to doublecross you, you're screwed. But this isn't going to happen THAT often, because Rep once lost is hard to rebuild.


-k

Yeah, because Corporations and Suits have proven to be so honorable.

Oh, wait, sorry, bigger thieves. I sit corrected.

Hey, I suppose you could go buy stock in Los Pollos Hermanos. Everyone likes fried chicken.

Coca Cola honors my stock certificate because I have some recourse if they fail to do so. They are subject to local and federal laws and could be prosecuted for non-compliance. I could take the company to small claims court, or notify the better business bureau. But if I give the Bonanno family a million dollars and they fail to pay any interest (or for that matter, pay back the principle), who could I turn to? I can't sue them for breach of contract when I was investing in an illegal enterprise in the first place. Even if I could, who would I sue? There's no registry for the Bonanno family, incorporated. Nobody would sign a contract and use their real name when it implicates them in illegal activity. Can you really be surprised if people who do illegal things for a living refuse to honor a gentleman's agreement to pay you back?

The mob does not need your money, and if they did they'd take it and give you nothing back. They make loans (at exorbitant interest) to suckers, you don't make loans to them. Your hundreds of thousands or millions of nuyen are nothing compared to the resources they have at their disposal.

You don' just GIVE the money.

You make it clear that the money is payment for something.

If they don't follow through with their end of the deal, their reputation will suffer.

Depending on who you are, they may decide the hit to their reputation is worth it. But they can't do that TOO often, or the people who they do business with regularly may start to lose trust and take that business elsewhere.

There are consequences for every action.

It's all about risk assessment. Is the risk (reputation hit) small enough that breaking a deal is worth it? Then break the deal. Otherwise, honor it. The Mob works that way, same as corporations.

This does of course mean that in the absence of legal risks and consequences, a smart 'runner dealing with the Mob will take additional steps to make sure the Mob knows it'd be better for them to honor the deal than to break it.



-k

Dealing with organized criminals, and this includes the entire Shadowrun structure of Fixers, Johnsons, etc. is dealing in reputation. You honor your word as much as possible and you enforce your will upon those who don't as much as possible because failure to do so can cost you everything. Do double crosses and backstabs happen? Absolutely. How you handle them is part of your reputation.

So, getting back to the idea of "Investing" in the underworld, that's not the right terminology, really. Think of it as "venture capital." Sure, Fat Tony belongs to the Mob, but he wants to move up. Having an extra 2-3 million Nuyen will allow him to expand his sections operations. Fat Tony, though, is a muckety muck in the mob, already. He's a Made Man, in charge of a sub-district. He wants the whole district, though. If you're a nobody, with no rep and you approach him, yeah, you're going to get screwed, hard. If you have a Rep, and people know that you have contacts and resources and can get things done, then you're dealing on a more equal status. Fat Tony is more likely to treat you with respect and honor the deal. Now, Fat Tony could screw you and not pay you your "dividends" but he does so knowing that it is HIS neck on the line, not the Mobs. Once they find out he's screwing with their Rep, they're likely to cut him loose or deal with him themselves.

In short, know who you are dealing with. Make sure they know who you are and that you can be dangerous on more than a personal level. Make sure you are dealing with people below, equal to, or SLIGHTLY above your own stature. With all of that, you might find that investing in the Underworld works out QUITE profitably for you.

I'm getting unusually pissed over this, so I'm going to do my best to reel it in. Bear with me, and I apologise if I've hurt feelings.

The way I see it, investing in an established illegal enterprise in this manner is simply a bad idea.

You are an independent investor. You're attempting to sink money into an illegal enterprise of which you have no 'in' besides a suitcase of cash. You want a return on your investment, and inform them of such.

They take your suitcase of cash, right there, and calmly tell you that it was lost in 'bad business dealings' and they're very sorry. What is your recourse? Where is your record of transaction, and who is going to believe your story?

That's my problem with this whole thing. They're holding the power and influence, and in essence taking all the risk - and reward. You're putting up money that you have no legal claim to the moment it leaves your hands.

Take Payback. Mel Gibson's character was cheated out of $70,000 by his partner, which was given to the Mob. He wanted his money back because it wasn't theirs. They didn't care.

They also underestimated the living hell out of him, which is why the whole organization was decapitated in the span of 72 horus - but that's Hollywood for you.

If you were going to go to them with this suitcase as a bankroll for breaking into the business in a zone they aren't using - okay. If you wanted to break into one of their zones to be made - okay. Pay them off to join them, great.

Giving them a wad of cash and expecting a stock option? I just cannot fathom why it could be viable.

I think this is yet another terrific example of "what works in one game doesn't necessarily work in another." Investment in organized crime? Yikes.

There's a difference between a "donation" and "investment."

It also helps to note that "the partner" is the one who did it. The mob didn't see Mel Gibson who has no proof the money (should have been) his.

Anyway lets turn this around:

Johnson goes to some ShadowRunners and asks them to do a job.

They ask for half up front (so they don't get screwed). Johnson agrees.

ShadowRunners leave.

And never do the job.

How many gaming groups out there are those shadowrunners? Jackasses that show up, take half, and then never follow through?

My bet: None.

We'll just call him Porter, because Porter is surly and enjoyable to watch working, and Mel Gibson is crazy.

The Mob also thought Porter was responsible for the $200,000+ take, but that's because they couldn't believe someone would put their life on the line for a third of it. C'est la vie.

In any case, it wasn't meant to be a "donation", but an "entry fee" into the mob itself. Porter still had no recourse to the money once it left his (unwilling) hands, and ended up dismantling the upper echelon of the syndicate in order to get his money back and then some.

Edit: YOU ADDED SOME ARGH.

Okay, we'll flip it because I like theoreticals perhaps a little too much.

Playerwise? You are likely correct, because there's an adventure to be had and that's why they are there. Within the game world? The 'runners don't have the power that the Johnson does. They may never work for that Johnson again (and may have a hard time finding work after the runners scarper) but if the Johnson double-crosses them? His backers just get a new one.

Some runners do leave with the cash, and then the Johnson decides whether or not it's worth pursuing them, or just informing their fixer of the dealings and letting the fixer handle it. Maybe the cash was a trap and the Johnson wants to pursue them. Maybe it wasn't a trap and he wanted to anyway. Maybe they give the cash back. Maybe the Johnson says 'keep it' and walks away because it's a suicide mission and he doesn't have time to worry about it. On either end of this equation, the runners aren't the biggest fish in this particular pond, and both sides know it.

An entry fee is like buying a ticket to a movie. You can't get a refund if you decide afterwards that you didn't like it.



It still works both ways. The Johnson is the Johnson because he has a certain skill set. As much as [insert megacorp here] would love to screw over the runners, at some point they don't have any more faces that anyone will trust (doesn't matter that no one knows who the Johnsons work for). This is one of the reasons that GMs are encouraged to NOT have the Johnson screw over the party very often (at some point "people" get wise and stop trusting the Johnson).
In fact, Johnsons and runner teams frequently build up a relationship: "I don't know who you work for, but we want jobs and you seem to have plenty and pay well."
Unfortunately, published missions and various other fluff/novels have the runners getting screwed over left and right, because it makes good plot. Never Deal With a Dragon would have been really boring and really short if the main character hadn't been fucked as hard as he was.

Exactly. The money is no longer yours once it leaves your hands with an illegal organization. Unless you're getting something right then and there like drugs, guns, humans, whatever - the only recourse you have to recoup that money is with the barrel of a gun.



The Johnson can use a masking program and only call them, or use a Physical Mask, or good stage makeup - or these are megas we're talking about, millions of people work for them. The runners shouldn't be trusting the Johnson in the first place.

And you're right. There should be some kind of working relationship there, but the Johnson can't grow too close since he might have to get rid of them later because they got too close. Alternatively, the runners could get made and run exclusively for that corp, which is another set of problems altogether.

Boring, true. But also one has to look at the fluff\novels in the context of the wider universe. Say throughout all the background there's like 30 runners that've been screwed over(could be more, not exhaustively studied them all). Compared to even one CITY thats a ridiculously low amount, in relative and absolute terms, of people fucked over compared to the rest that go through with their deals and honor the unwritten rules. Even if you bump it up to 300, its still small.

Or you know, you could say, "I'd like to invest in your organization and receive some benefits thereof."
You know. Buy some stock.

Illegal organizations do not offer stock.

Your money would be safer investing in novacoke and Biosculpted Model Ass.

I like how this has come full circle.

I'd like to make an observation, if I may. It's been touched on in a few posts here, but let's gather it up in one place:

Investing in Legitimate Business (LB):

This activity is somewhat safe, because there are legal avenues you can pursue should the LB simply take your money and run. More specifically, either the government will put pressure on the LB to behave equitably, or maybe the Corporate Court will. If no entity of sufficient power and influence exists to put pressure on the LB to behave equitably, then the LB will take your money and tell you to fuck off.

Investing in Illegitimate Business (IB):

This activity is less safe, because there are no legal avenues you can pursue should the IB simply take your money. If you can find or more likely BE an entity of sufficient power and influence, then the IB will likely behave equitably. If not, kiss your cash goodbye. Successful "investment" in the IB world is more likely to be a "partnership" between IB's, where both work towards a mutually beneficial goal.

Given the OP, Doc seems to be under the impression that a single Technomancer doesn't command enough power and influence to make any IB behave equitably with his money. Honestly, depending on the power and influence that the IB wields, this is most likely true.

Other posters in the thread seem to be under the impression that the runner community, and perhaps other IB's will get wind of said betrayal, and put pressure and influence on the offending IB to behave equitably. Depending on the influence the runner wields in the runner community, that might work. But more likely it will just get your runner friends to ask you, "WTF?", and your money will vanish into some criminal's pocket.

Basically, an investment in a LB is a good choice, because it doesn't matter what your power and influence are, the LB will likely behave because there are other powerful entities ensuring that it will. Investing in an IB can be a good choice, if you have the power and/or influence to keep the IB in line, which your average runner won't. The safety net present with LB's isn't there with an IB.

And, of course, both LB's and IB's will be constantly looking for ways to screw you out of your investment.

Let's not forget that investing in things is lame and not Shadowrun. At least wasting it on pleasure is RP-appropriate.

Let us also not forget that the SINless may not be allowed to own stock in a corporation. Or may not have any legal recourse because they are not a citizen.

And, let's not forget, if you have enough nuyen that you're thinking in terms of Investment in an Illegal Business, you should probably be smart enough to have held back enough to hire someone to help deal with those who double cross you.

Furthermore, let's not forget… er. Oh dear… how embarrassing.

Since I'm a Scrooge fan I say double this.

On a different note, I know you are a technomancer, but that doesn't mean you can't hack normally. Do you have a bad ass comlink and programs? I like them on technomancers personally.

I dunno. I rarely ever get pissed over an internet conversation. It's just a forum.

I cannot disagree with this. Given a choice, there are a lot better places to spend your money.

All I was saying, though, was that the Mob has more to worry about if they screw someone over than "just" the people they screwed. Everything has a cost, a consequence. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's more nebulous like reputation.

They are a business, in the end. They engage in activities in order to obtain a return, in either money or power. And a bad reputation can affect their ability to earn money.

Sure, if they decide the more profitable route is to screw the customer, they'll do it.

But they aren't going to do it JUST to be contrary. They do it for a reason.

And doing it on a regular basis tends to have an ever increasing effect on their reputation.

So, if you want to do business with the Mob, it is just good sense to take steps so the Mob decides the more profitable route is to just honor the deal.

Alternately, there's shadow versions of escrow accounts. And THOSE escrow companies live and die by their reputation, so they aren't ever likely to screw over customers.



-k

Set up safehouses, stashes, hidden cars, bug out bags...

And a nice stash away so you can eventually buy that bar when retirement happened.

Travel and bribes, for those safehouses, etc. There's never nothing to spend money on.

My old Virtual Seattle character did that at the campaign end. Moved to New York, bought a bar, retired.

I started playing SRMissions during the New York campaign. My first character has a background of a retired grumpy old man that recently had his bar blown up and investments along with it, by some stupid shadowrunners.





-k

Oh come on, we all know what happens when you invest in legal operations.

"I'm sorry, sir, we had to use your money to bail out our parent corporation. Imagine how the poor managers would feel if they didn't get their monthly bonus."

"Wait, WHAT?"

The average runner is probably capable of wrecking hell on an illegal business that screws him over. How many have ranks in demolitions?

I'm sure most of our characters could cause a mob to lose more money than our character's invested in them if the mob decides to double cross us.

That is a thought that also came up to me while reading this discussion.
The problem is that if you try to tip the cost effiency scale of not paying you vs having you wreaking havoc; things could get personal and there is very few one can do against hitmen if they decide that you screwed enough with them.

But yeah, you could write a nice letter explaining that it would cost them more than its worth not to play you.

Are runners also not typically very good at disappearing, laying low, and hiding their tracks? Plus those hitmen aren't necessarily going to work.

You put out a 20K Nuyen bounty on the runner, dead or.. dead.

Then every wanna be and low on cash Shadowrunner is going to come after him.
Problem solved, and you don't have to pay for mistakes.

Except for all the destruction the runner that you put a bounty on causes for you before he's dead and the audacity increase of such attacks after each consecutive failed attack, and the fact that you would need to up the bounty from 20,000 to at least 50,000 before someone competent comes around.

So now this lower boss has to explain to Papa Tony why he let two novacoke shipments worth over 500,000 each get blown up amongst other losses. Said lower boss might be taking a swim with the fishes because he reneged on a deal with a runner even if the runner ended up dead.

Yes
that's quite true.
But the runner /will/ be dead.
And some other lower Boss will take his place.

The runner may be dead. The under boss will be replaced.

No, the Mob can't let that runner live. They can't afford for people to think that it's okay to blow up shipments of NovaCoke.

It also really depends on who's making the character. I've seen characters made that can't fight their ways out of wet paper sacks, and I've seen characters made that are ready to have running fights with PR-6's.

I dunno about you all, but most of the runners I've played with will probably cost the opposition in the hundreds of thousands of nuyen in expenses before it's all over, if not millions.

If the response to an assassination attempt is the destruction of a facility (or half dozen facilities), with a polite note saying, "Don't", well...

Or better, no overt retaliation, but the Johnson/Mob Boss in charge receives a similar letter given to him by his young child who found it in their bed.

I suppose it depends on who the runners are.

If it's a bunch of former gutterpunks, no, they're not going to be taken as a serious threat. But a team of ex-SpecOps mercs of the "Ice Cold Pro" variety, well, those might get treated a wee bit more delicately.



-k

What you're missing is that the guy the runner did the deal with, the under boss, has every reason to not screw around with a runner. That runner can make life hell for that under boss because he reports to someone higher up. While shipments of novacoke are a way to get his own organization to knock him off it would likely be fairly easy for many runners to put a bullet through his skull.

Of course, let's look at it another way. How is the mob going to know that the novacoke shipments getting blown are done by this particular runner? They have a habit of hiding their tracks.

Not really. Runners are only as good at lying low as the GM is willing to allow them to be. Most runners are so blatantly obvious that they'd have to go deep, deep underground in another time zone to hide, lol.