Sorry about that...

I made it all the way to the third Samm only to loose it at the endi, subsequent tries failed after the second word.

Well... we have a single mom sammie in our group, so... but she's not quite the house-wife. Our current GM has been lenient on her with her "Dependants" quality, but when GM rotation comes to me I'll harass her with calls from her baby-sitter during the middle of a shoot-out, muhahaha.

And no, I won't try . I can't even say it in my head.

I don't think its fair to compare the myriad of ways someone can get bonus IPs to one specific weapon or suit of armor. A more fair comparison would be to say that a character needs some form of offense, some form of defense, and some form of extra IPs. While its true that there are fewer ways to boot IP than there are methods to add to your offensive or defensive abilities, there is still at least some variety in the options available. Even a mundane has the options of various levels of wired reflexes, various levels of synaptic accelerators, various levels of move-by-wire, several drug options, or just to bump up edge and expect to burn it for extra IPs. Thats not counting the fact that they could also use a drone or gun turret and go to AR to either remote control it or jump in at 2-5 IPs per turn, again with a couple of different options on how to acheive those IPs. In all of the ways the character has available they have to look at the resources involved and what they are willing to spend to get them, they have to balance character resources (cash, essence, availability, build points) vs character concept and functionality. So no I don't think picking where you get your IP boosts from is any more simple than picking your weapons, armor, skills, and other gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDuma1M09B0

Bye
Thanee

Man, I loved that movie

Coincidentally, I used to have a sushi chef sammie back in the day. Even made a really crappy webcomic about him, He used knives and his nickname was "The Iron Chef".

No linky?

Nope. It was on Drunk Duck, and its long gone now. No loss though, it was dumb

Of course I've seen this, too. Good catch, though.

I think a good reason not to reduce maximum IPs is because it can be fun to have a lot of them. How else are you gonna do this?Doing impossibly cool things in combat is one of the reasons to play Shadowrun in the first place.

Are extra IPs broken? I don't think so. The +1 IP is cheap enough anyone can get it, while the +3 IP is so expensive in Essence/Power Points/Nuyen/Availability that you need to give up a lot of other things to get it.

Are extra IPs a hassle that slows down the game and makes it less fun for people with less IPs?
Case: one PC has 4 IPs, the rest 2. NPCs also have 2 IPs. Cue two IPs of combat, followed by the 4IP guy getting two more IPs in which he guns down a few more people; that could be handled in mere moments.

If your combat is going slowly, it's not the IPs that are the problem. You should figure out what's eating up the time.
* Is it confusion about rules and lots of page-thumbing? Make cheat-sheets for common actions and checks, and the GM should settle stuff with ad-hoc rulings rather than take too long.
* Are players thinking too long about what to do? A round (not IP!) takes 3 seconds; urge your players to just make a decision, give them 10 seconds or forfeit their action.
* Are players discussing endlessly what to do? Enforce that saying something costs a Free Action. If people have a discussion, that's their action for that IP.

The game I'm in reduces the potency of extra IP's by causing recoil to stack for the entire turn rather than resetting each initiative pass.

As a 2IP AR / LMG user I'm often out of recoil comp by my fourth shot, so having extra IP's would not be of great combat use.

Wonkey movement rules already nerf IP's for melee users enough

That sounds like a pretty good way to make extra IP's less useful for gun characters only. Meanwhile, the chop socky doesn't slow down, the magic still casts at high speed...

I've never had a problem with multiple IPs "breaking the game." We've come up with that extra way to get an IP I mentioned earlier, but honestly, if you're getting into a gunfight with a move-by-wire-3 ninja and you're unaugmented, the problem might just be that you're fighting above your weight class, not that the game is broken.

That's.... not too smart.

What if you drop the gun in IP3? Pick up a new gun? Will that start with recoil already built up? Really that's just a pretty shoddy rule.

And it also isn't fair, as Shrike pointed out. Mages still get to cast 4 spells per round, if they want to.

Actually, I'm going to say that by now, mages have the cheapest way of getting 4IPs at chargen. It costs 30K (or was it 45?) and a point of edge after chargen.

You're talking about something more complex than casting Improve Initiative at force 4 into a sustaining focus, i take it?

Force 4 Sustaining Foci are not available during chargen (without that high AV equipment quality, that is).

Bye
Thanee

Given that you can run increase reaction, intuition and reflexes at the same time, giving mages a higher initiative max than just about anybody, I'm seriously inclined to increase the thresholds on increase reflexes.

Yeah... i find it weird, that in my group, the only character with 4 IP is the mage... one character has three the others two.

Making it to... half hits achieved may be a bit insane though. So maybe just a +2 threshold or something. But with what justification?

Ok. cybered human, realisitically, caps at 9 reaaction and 6 intution. lets say he's got wired 3 to keep the passes even.

That's init 15 with 4 IP total

The mage can cap at 9 rea, 9 int, + 3 passes and +3 init on top of that

Mage gets init 21 with 4 IP total. Ok, Sustainng focuses for that lot are gonna be 140k and, at char gen at least, need Restricted Gear.

Certainly more reason to Geek the Mage.

You need a Force 9 Increase Agility/Intution spell to push your stats that high.

This means two force 9 Sustaining Focuses - 2x90.000 , an availability of 36R each and 36 Karma / 18 BP to bind - plus 40.000 / 8 Karma or 4 BP for the Force 4 focus for the IP boost, and a real risk of focus addiction unless you push your Magic rating really high - eating even more Karma for Initiation and Magic increase.

Total Availability 2x36R+1x16R, 220.00 and 44 Karma. Considering that Synaptic Booster 3 are "only" 18R Availability, 240.000 and 0 Karma, the hypothetical "Uberfast mage" does not strike me as that big a problem...

Can you actually bind foci with a higher rating than your own magic score?

Reaction, not Agility.

No you do not, increase attribute must be cast at force equal to your attribute, not at force equal to what you want to raise it to.
So force 5 is enough or if using edge force 4.

Cant find anything that forbids this in the books.

Yes, Reaction, my bad. *edits*

Skill 12 means a DP of 12 since a skill can only go up to 7. 12 Dice is ludicrously easy for any combat skill to obtain.

4 Skill, 6 Agility, Smartgun. 12 Dice.

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That's really a bad comparison. All combat characters are going to have at LEAST 2 IP, even shooters.

That means your 4 IP sammy will toss out 72 total dice assuming he gets to attack every round. The 2 IP sniper will throw 82 total dice.

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Survivability for melee characters drops significantly.

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Uh.... are you playing Shadowrun? It is who goes first then who gets to go more often.



There are not wonky situations that have been house ruled. The house rules that have come up comes from people feeling that high IP shout be able to act before others and after others, rather than everyone in the first IP and those with more acting later. Note that these house rules increase the lethality to characters with low IPs more than that the traditional IP system in SR4.



It's a thing called choice. You can -choose- to be underpowered or you can choose to be properly powered. What you want is twenty options to do the exact same thing, which isn't choice. It's like have twenty Mercedes, the only difference being the body color. It does absolutely nothing, unless you're an Ork and believe the red ones go faster.



Unlike hacking, where the hacker does his thing and the rest of the group does nothing.



This would exist since high IPs tends to go hand in hand with high initiative.



Sounds like the GM isn't balancing combat scenes and non-combat scenes to give every character a chance to shine. Have you ever dealt with hacking? You know, that thing where everyone but the hacker is useless and has to sit around? At least in combat the hacker and shoot a gun at something.



So the real issue comes to light. You just don't like the concept of initiative passes.

Acu tetigisti. Methinks the OP just needs to find a different game if IPs bother him so much.

Redcrow isn't the OP. The OP was just innocently asking a question.

Going Faster /wired reflexes/ is an iconic part of Shadowrun/Cyberpunk.

Sadly, in games where guns do real damage. He who shoots first, and most always wins.

This was true during the days of Gunslingers in the Old West, and has not changed today.

Right.

Redcrow: your order of operations for Initiative sounds like SR2. Admittedly, we ran the SR2-style initiative system (go early, go often) all the way through SR3 and almost into 4, but decided to play the game "as written" to see what shook out, and never went back to it.

You racist! Just because Orks are dumb doesn't mean you can make fun of them because they think a car painted with fast-lanes go faster.
Or making fun of most of them being poor and have to put their babies in ring-fights where people bet which baby will win the right of being breastfed.

Well, the SR4 system is meant to fix the "go early, go often, then everyone else goes" problem present in previous editions by letting everyone go in the 1st IP and then the faster characters finish the rest of their IPs. That way the faster characters don't kill everything before the slower characters even get to act as was problematic in previous editions.

I understand the reason for the Initiative change from previous editions to the way SR4 does it , but it doesn't really fix the wonkiness. IMO, its like hanging a picture over a hole in the wall and pretending the underlying problem is gone.

Although there were always die-hard fans of SR who insisted those old Initiative rules were just fine and didn't need changed just as there are those today who ignore all or most of SRs underlying problems and get zealously defensive whenever someone comes along and points out an inherent problem or bit of wonkiness in a game they believe to be perfect as is. Of course its not just SR, as you can find this phenomena on nearly any RPG forum. It just tends to be far more prevalent on forums dedicated to a single RPG.

I'm talking about buying a Force 3 focus and casting the spell with edge into it - extra successes from edge dice don't count against the force limiter for successes.

In my current, fairly high-powered group (750 karma, OLD karma costs, and no limit to how many attribs can be at racial max) we have three people with 4IPs, one with 2, I think, and one with 1 IP. That last guy was just too lazy to do things differently, he just rebuilt the covert ops archetype from the book. He could complain that he doesn't spend combat doing much, but actually he complains more out of combat. Which... has nothing to do with this discussion.

And I concur, people not comfortable with multiple IPs should reasonably look for a different game, at least when they try to play with people outside of their core groups, who might agree with them. Superfast sammies ARE as much as a core concept of SR as the matrix and magic.

I always found it a bit weird, that it is 2, 3, 4 and not 2, 3, 5 (just like the essence cost of wired reflexes).

Bye
Thanee

Wrong type of ork. The kind of ork that I'm talking about really does make the red ones go fasta when he thinks they go fasta.

Except you havent pointed out any wonkiness, you just claimed its there and that your houserule removes it.

This depends how you read the "Force must be equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected". Is it the augmented value before you cast the spell (by implants, Adept power or drugs) or the value augmented by the spell ?

Go start a new thread or open up one of the dozen or so threads on this topic if you want to argue about that.

Fixed that for you.

Actually I did. Post #129.

But I will expound a bit just for you.

In earlier editions of Shadowrun the faster moving characters took most or all of their actions before the slower moving characters. A lot of people complained about this and so the developers came up with the IP system in which everyone gets to act on the 1st IP and then the faster moving characters gain a sudden burst of speed as they use up their remaining IPs to finish out the round. Or to look at it in the reverse, it would almost seem as if slower moving characters gain a sudden burst of speed during the 1st IP in order to keep up with the faster moving characters, but then mysteriously slow to a crawl until a new round begins.

I understand the complaints of the earlier editions and why things were changed to the IP system, but it is certainly wonky and strains believability. Faster moving characters should be able to act multiple times before slower moving characters. While the change solved the complaints it created some definite wonkiness.

Next is the problem of escalation, which I already mentioned. There are so many options and it is so easy to gain a 2nd IP that it is common, even for non-combat oriented characters to get. After all, the benefits far outweigh the cost. Unfortunately for the combat characters this virtually forces them to continually go one step further in order to maintain the edge in their niche. When going for a 3rd IP the cost begins to be more prohibitive, in Nuyen, Magic Points, or precious Essence. And getting a 4th IP all but ensures the character is going to be essentially a one-trick pony. This setup limits the choices of combat characters.

Imagine what it would do to Mages if it were so easy for everyone to pick up just a bit of magic that it became common-place. Then you would have everyone and their brother running around with the ability to Counterspell and the dedicated Mage would have to spend that much more resources into spellcasting just to maintain an edge and fill their niche.

I believe that dedicated combat characters should be able to move faster and do more than non-combat characters. I do NOT think you need a system that goes up to 4 IPs to achieve that, especially when you are just going to make it so easy for everyone else to get up to 2 IPs. YMMV.

That would be awesome.

I Still do not see the problems that you seem to be experiencing... and It has yet to strain believability/credibility any more than dragons or magic in the game world... of course, your mileage may vary...

The system is set up for a semblance of balance... in that category, it succeeded magnificently in my opinion... can individuals get 2 IP easily? Yes. Does it take up all of your resources to get 4 IP? Absolutely not... it is a niche thing, to be sure, but that is okay. The mage is a niche concept and they spend great amounts of Karma, Skill Advancement and Money (if you like foci) for their abilities. The same should be said for any other archtype.

I don't see a problem with it myself. I am on the side that sees it as too easy to get your attack dice pool so high that in virtually all situations you insta kill enemies. Magic almost magnifies this since there are less ways to defend against it, and it is far too easy to start the spell off at death.

It seems to me the inverted pyramid method outlined earlier meets the worries of those like Redcrow who want the slow folks to get a chance to do something before the opposition is wiped out by the faster combatants, and the desire of others to keep the differential between combat oriented PCs and non-combatants.

Our group is trying that house rule out, and though I was the one who argued in the beginning against instituting it, I haven't seen it harm any core SR concept and even the slow ones get to contribute. The cheaper, temporary methods for increasing IPs are still available to those who want them.

Do the faster ones feel cheated? Not that I can see.

I actually thought about trying a game where EVERYONE, including all NPCs, were awakened. So basically everyone gets the Adept, Mystic Adept or Mage qualities for free, you might even reimburse Adepts and Mystics for their lower cost qualities. Of course, most people never get training, but....It could be a bit like in the Elder Scrolls games, where basically everyone can do a bit of magic.

And then it depends on what people want to do: How do they prioritise Magic vs the other stuff?

3-4 IP's does not a Jedi, er, a Street Samurai make. It sure is good for the Sam, but if he/she can't hit shit nor take the heat, he is not suited for combat.

Now, an anecdotal example.

Double post

And how is this different from how our world works now? You always have to go one step further to keep the edge in your specialty. More tools, better tools, more training, and each progressive level requires more and more effort (work, time, or money) in order to achieve. These are finite resources that you have. Cutting edge is never cheap.

As far as your wonkiness goes. As best as I can tell, the concept that actions and reactions can be independent of each other bothers you. You assume, erroneously, that if someone can react quickly (reaction speed) they should be able to perform actions more quickly (action speed). SR4, at least, disassociates the two by dividing them into Initiative (reaction speed) and Initiative Passes (action speed). It's more than possible to create a character with 1 IP that has an Initiative score that exceeds that of a 4 IP character. It's just easier to get there with IP enhancers since they also increase reaction.

Further the current average reaction speed of a human is 215ms as recorded by human benchmark with the vast majority of times scoring between 150ms and 300ms. The average would translate to a 3 Reaction and 3 Intuition character. If Initiative Passes were broken down into equivalent units of time, a combat with one Initiative pass would have passes that last 3000ms, two passes would be 1500ms each, three passes would be 1000ms each, and four passes would be 750ms each. All characters have the reaction speed to start acting in the first initiative pass.

My ideal system would function like this. All characters get the same number of actions regardless of Initiative passes base on the number of actions that would normally be available to the character with the highest Initiative Passes. So in a combat turn with 4 IP normally, everyone gets 8 simple or 4 complex actions along with 4 free action. Initiative is rolled as normal with the following tie breakers. Initiative followed by Edge with any tied characters acting simultaneously. All actions conclude at 750ms intervals. Players predeclare every action they will be taking for the combat turn (action set) divided into four action nodes. Initiative Passes act solely as the number of of times the player may alter his remaining action nodes. A player may alter his action set just before his character is about to take an action. This allows the player to react to situations that occur during the combat turn. All characters are also given one "Dive for Cover" interrupt that lets a player go into some sort of defensive stance while sacrificing all his remaining actions. Additionally, a player may use any IP interrupt as a Dive for Cover interrupt (this essentially behaves identically to sacrificing an IP early to use full defense). That means that a 1 IP character has no interrupts and Dive for Cover, 2 IP has one interrupt and Dive for Cover, 3 IP has two interrupts and Dive for Cover, and 4 IP has three interrupts and Dive for Cover. Essentially, an Initiative Pass translates into how many times you can declare actions for the combat turn.

Of course, that's a rough hash up that could probably use improvement. It gets rid of the problem of people killing you before you get a chance to react (the problem that the IP system in SR4 seeks to fix) while still giving a benefit to having Initiative Pass enhancements.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the wonkiness, even in post 129. Post 129 just flat out claims getting a hold of initiative passes is so important as to constitute an undue centralization of the combat mechanics around how many passes you can get, which further means that characters are forced into too narrow of a selection of character choices. That's an assertion I fundamentally disagree with. As I mentioned earlier with Magicians, there are ways to split pools or to otherwise attempt to approximate in a single pass what a lesser skilled character can do in a multiple passes via the use of area of effect magic or multicasting-- it's not easy, but then again, it's surprising how many dice you can often squeeze out if you're not shooting for more than 1 or 2 base passes, particularly with adepts. If I can mind control or cripple a couple guys in my initial action (which, frankly, is not that dang hard in a house fight scenario) then I have likely done my job well enough that we can win provided my teammates can at least pull their weight in a tussle. Against uncybered opposition this can even hold true for adepts/samurai who use Multistrike or optimize around dual wielding SMGs. What you can do in a pass often matters more than the sheer number of passes you have to begin with. You have to pay a premium to do so, but that's a balance issue given that straight burying a guy in your first pass before they ever get to react is something much of the community wanted to get away from.

If anything, I think physical combat characters are too centralized around Agility. If given a choice between playing a character with maxed out IPs or maxed out Agility, I'd take the latter. It represents a ridiculous portion of your offensive dice pools and is tied to pools that are good for things other than hurting people. That the "optimum" choice is usually somewhere between those two extremes isn't something that will keep me awake at night. I'm just not terribly miffed by the notion that Muscle Toners, Wired 2 and a Smartlink are standard equipment. Design flaw vs. working as intended is a matter of perspective in this case.

Agreed.

Agility is overpowered. I play a shooter. By augmenting my strength up 1 or 2 more points (would be Muscle Aug III-IV instead of II) my melee damage could be more on par with the unarmed and blades character in my group. The reason it isn't on par is -not- my dice pool (which pretty much is on par with theirs, maybe a point or two lower) but rather my damage side not being close, lacking melee weapon mods, and my lacking the melee tricks that they have through martial arts traits. They will, of course, kick my ass in melee combat because of all the aforemeantioned reasons and dodge, but I'm still leagues ahead of most mooks when it comes to melee combat.

Taking a one or two ranks in every agility linked skill is a very cheap and cost effective way of greatly broadening my skill set and that's not including specializations.

Hmm... I however ask myself if there were any other way. Using Str to attack like in D&D? I don't think so. So... I think it just is that way. Anybody who wants to do combat needs some of it, so...

The only way to perhaps reduce it's importance a little, would be to create a derived combat attribute. For example: (Agi+Rea+Int)/3. And base all physical combat skills on this, rather than just Agi. However, I would say at that point the 200BP limit on stats would have to be lifted, and a few more BPs would be in order, unless you WANT people to have lower DPs...

Why not strength?

Attribute definitions are in the hands of the designers. Strength does not have to be narrowly defined as the lift crap stat. It can involve the ability to effectively deliver force as well, and probably many other things.

But hey the maybe earlier editions had it right argument works as well.

There's no point to. It's adding unnecessary complication to make an inferior form of combat more equitable with firearms, which are meant to be the superior form of combat. Also, a solution like that is more likely to hurt melee characters more than firearms characters since I can see Intuition being a pseudo dump stat since they can ratchet their initiative up with Reaction.