My point still stands though, I mean if your argument against a 85 BP quality that adds 40BP of ability mods and nabs immunity to age (unimportant in almost every game out there), pathogens and toxins and your argument is "Well, normally you have to wear intimidating armor to get something like that...." then it sort of falls flat.

-edit-

Not throwing it in as an afterthought, throwing it in at the cost of 45 BP. Thats not an afterthought, thats more than 10% of your BP allotment.

Look, your options for full chemical seals are entirely self-contained suits with an air supply of an hour or so by the RAW, and the most available ones aren't particularly good against anything else nor do they fit in everywhere. That's not trivial. I'm not saying that what you're suggesting should be impossible. I'm saying that 85 build points for the package you've slapped together is still light.

There's a big difference between a full-face mask and an innate power, that's all. (Also, you conveniently forget injection vectors.) My question is, why are you even mentioning these powers? The player asked to be old; that's Immunity to Age. Done.

Nevermind that you're breaking the attribute-BP limit by giving 4 points of attributes outside of the 200, and that you can't even have a Magic rating if you've spent 85 out of the max 35 BP on positive qualities, either.

It doesn't even really hit me as needing that, honestly. Just say a spike baby and be done with it. How long a healthy regular elf can live is a bit of an open question anyway.

Agreed. That's the point, really: 'why are you giving him power (and powers) for no reason?'

And Im disagreeing, I dont think its too light at all. Its around the right ballpark in my opinion.



There is precedent for qualities that are outside the normal 35 point max, every infected quality and drake quality off the top of my head. The guy was talking about immortal elfs, which have immunity to pathogens and toxins as well as age so I was trying to satisfy the topic of the thread.

Note that the guy would have to be an elf (30BP), would take the Immortal Elf quality (85 BP) and have "Immunity to Pathogens and Toxins" which is Armor 4 against such things with a magic of 2. Not super amazing. To get better hed have to up his magic. For another 65 BP he has a magic of 7 and has armor 14.

At that point you might as well throw in magician (since its not part and parcel with immortal elf, Frosty for example had latent talents which suggests that a quality still needs to be taken).

Im not super worried about it being unbalanced guys.

The Infected qualities *give* a Magic rating. They're more like races.

I should apologize. I didn't realize you were literally designing an Immortal Elf quality. The OP specifically asked for non-Immortal-Elf suggestions, because it's unthinkable to have a player be one. I misunderstood, thinking that you were designing an immortal (lowercase) Elf (completely explained by 'spike baby').

In that case, it should be a race, it's incredibly weak, and it's vastly undercosted. You might as well let someone play a dragon; yes, I know you've got a thread about that, but it's still insane.

In this thread or the other my point was to show that it was indeed possible to do these things on a level of parity with other shadowrunners. The dragon thread being a good example. Im not going to say that the dragon character I worked up using the april fools rules isn't powerful, it certainly is, but no more powerful than a superbly cybered out troll.

Really the only reason why such things seem to be frowned upon is that they step on the toes of the "heroes of cannon".

People who dislike these ideas seem to do so on general principle and or roleplaying concerns as opposed to actual concerns of balance. Both have merit. I understand both the principle behind it and the roleplaying concern, but at the same time I think that some people are a bit staid and comfortable with the way things are and that there is a fair bit of reaction to anything that shakes the boat.

I think an elf magician with those qualities would be balanced in comparison to the other runners and does a decent job of portraying a young or unexperienced immortal elf.

My point, here, is that anything balanced for normal play is, by definition, not an Immortal Elf.

He's not talking about making an Immortal Elf, Yerameyahu. He's talking about making an immortal elf, just as in his other thread he talks about making a significantly young dragon, not a bloody Great Dragon.

Do you seriously find this overpowered? Do you find that it doesn't represent an unexperienced or young immortal elf well enough?

Wow, that's even worse. Enhanced maximums, +2 Magic, and boosted max Magic?

Yes, I think it's both overpowered and not representative of an Immortal Elf.

Sephiroth, that's wrong. He is talking explicitly about 'Immortal Elf', a category entirely separate from an Elf who happens to be immortal. There's no Great Immortal Elf, either, so I'm positive I'm not making the error you accuse me of.

It's also not about whether it's game breaking so much as it is about the fit. Like it or not, the SR4 devs had some weird ideas about a rarity tax on exotic metatypes and acquiring racial advantages since such advantages are basically the equivalent of positive qualities but don't count under any sort of 35 bp cap. So if you want to allow immortal elves and you want them to be jarringly better than the other exotic metatypes-- particularly drakes-- than by all means go ahead and use the rules you've ginned up. It even makes a measure of sense since immortal elves featured in the fiction are really talented if not outright Mary Sue-ish and just plain better than other people. I'd still hold however, that the OP seemed to be asking about immortal elves primarily because he didn't seem to know much about the alternatives like spike babies. If he still wants to go the immortal route after having been informed about other stuff that's his prerogative. Sometimes letting one PC be special can work out pretty well and make a good plot hook. But with that said I'm not really so sure that a one-size-fits-all IE template is really a good idea.

Its actually +1 Magic, they just start off with a magic attribute instead of having to take the magician quality to get it.

Also, Unbalanced? Compare that to a Drake.



Such Drake ability mods do increase the maximums and augmented maximums as well. A Western Dragon gets +4 Body, +5 Strength and +1 Reach on top of Mystic Armor, Hardened Armor, and an elemental attack. Thats 9 Ability mods and a magic score of 1. All for 65 BP. An Immortal Elf as per my homebrew quality gets +5 ability mods and the immunities.

If you think mine is unbalanced everything in runners companion is far far more unbalanced than my proposed IE.

@ Whipstitch: Jarringly better? Hardly. The above should explain why.

It's +2 Magic, because you started with 0.

Drakes have plenty (*plenty*) of weaknesses to balance it out. You'd have a hard time finding anyone who'll play a drake. In addition, mental attribs are significantly better (more valuable, harder to get) than physical attribs (which is what the Drake gets).

They also face rather profound limitations. Drake powers and advantages only apply in drake form. They can't benefit from most gear or ANY 'ware in their dracoforms and a hardened armor of 4 won't actually -do- anything against just about any armed attack that actually hits them, since with a net hit the DV of even a hold out pistol is effectively a 5. Again, you need to look at these things in -context-. Making a Drake that can actually -do- anything worthwhile with their advantages is usually pretty dang tricky. Making a drake typically results in a character that has two forms which are both mediocre. Your elf, on the other hand, is a walking pile of bonus attributes.

Propose that the immortal elf must have a geas to follow, for instance, one non-harmful action another PC commands him once per game and watch the player backtrack to wanting to play a human hacker so fast it will make your head spin.

If, instead, he thinks that is a neat idea and proposes exposition, then let him play it. Let him play the crap out of that immortal elf! Otherwise just print out a certificate that says he wins at Shadowrun and hope that placates his ego.

Yes! You are right, a hardened armor of 4 is pretty low... sort of like armor to pathogens and toxins 4, the only toxin in the 20th Anniversary Core Book with a rating of lower than 4 is Sleep Deprivation, Tear Gas has a rating of 5, and the next lowest rating is Nausea gas at 6.

Ok, so if you find my representation of a young immortal elf unpalatable what do you suggest. Stop naysaying and actually help . Write up your own version of the quality and we'll see where we differ.

@ Yeremeyahu: Sure, you go from having no magic to 2 magic, but you also dont get any extra magic for picking up Magician. A Magician Immortal Elf would start off with 2 as opposed to 1 with a cap of 7.

I'm well aware of the nonexistence of 'Great Immortal Elves,' and that wasn't what I was saying, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my knowledge of canon and use smiley faces to cover it up kthnx.

By RAW, it is impossible to make or emulate epic-level characters and already-well-established NPC's, contrary to what seems to be your biggest concern. What this means is that you cannot meaningfully stat out as PC's Hestaby, Harlequin, Aithne, Ehran, Perianwyr, Damon, Art Dankwather, Damien Knight, Fastjack, or any of the nosferatu leaders of the Ordo Maximus. With the exception of Hestaby, most of the race options for those characters already exist (whether in Ramaloke's proposal, the Dragon joke rules, or RAW), but attempting to make any of them as PC's is an utterly meaningless endeavor, because 400 BP cannot accurately reflect the experience, knowledge, and resources that these characters have at their disposal. So no, he's not talking about Immortal Elf, because an Immortal Elf is an established canonical character. Every canonical IE is vastly more powerful than any character built around Ramaloke's quality. He really is just talking about an elf who happens to be immortal and perhaps knows it, which in this case is essentially identical to an inexperienced immortal elf.

The Hardened Armor can't be raised, and does basically nothing ever. In this, again, it's totally unlike those dual Immunities.

I think that chargen rules for Immortal Elves isn't on topic for this thread.

Psh, Sephiroth, who's insulting who about canon now? An Immortal Elf is not an immortal elf. Please don't insult my use of smiley faces and cover it with stupid abbreviations. There, did we get it out of our systems?

1. Thread title aside (due to the original poster not knowing any better) he was not asking about immortal elves, he was asking about spike babies.
2. I don't remember anything from the original poster that implied the player wanted power, simply an interesting story.

With that pointed out, I see no reason that you cannot just make an elf character per the standard rules, and say that you are a spike baby. Regular elves live at least 300 years, and look twenty something for almost the whole time.

So an elf born during a mana spike circa 1888, would be 184 years old, and barring some past trauma, look about the same age as all the under 60-year-old elves born since 2011.

Admittedly, the player would need a good background story to explain why such a character still has starting-character level stats, but all characters should have good background stories.


I love Dumpshock, but this thread has become a good example of the complaints about us I hear elsewhere. A simple question was asked, with a simple answer (spike baby); and we now have pages of responses alternating between arguing over playing immortals, and the evils of power gamers.

Where exactly are you even getting this, that we're discussing an Immortal Elf as opposed to an immortal elf? I do not understand. From the quality name, perhaps?

No, that's the entire point. You missed it. Ramaloke is statting an Immortal Elf (he said so more than once), while the OP only wants 'an elf who is immortal' (actually, just an elf who is 150). The difference is the difference between a Jeep Cherokee (automobile) and a Cherokee (Native American). They are totally unrelated things.

To which I respond with the opening post on the topic:



So Id say we're pretty well within the scope of this thread.

All I'm trying to say is that playing an immortal elf (genetically similar to Harlequin, only just hitting the streets and shadowrunning not with some 10,000 years of experience and magical initiation), is perfectly within the scope of a player character.

"I've explained to him that the only way I know for that to happen is if he was one of the immortals." This means 'Immortal Elves are not in the scope of this topic'.

The original poster had never heard of spike babies, and so asked the question in terms he did know about.

Most of us did know better and should have simply responded that what he was asking about was in fact not an immortal but a spike baby.

*facepalm* *points to title of the thread*

The OP did not know about spike babies, though that proved to be a viable alternative to his player's original desire, which was a several hundred year old elf which was immortal.

I do, however, think that at this point I dont want to get into a discussion about the purpose of the thread, I mean, we're already back and forthing over my little quality, we do not need to do so over the scope of the thread as well.

My problem is that it'd probably have even higher magic potential than yours and less other stats and that's something I don't really want in my games at all unless we're building for an outright higher power level than is available within a 400 bp starting game. A one size fits all solution to this kind of thing just isn't territory I want to mine. If I had a player who really wanted to do this I would just end up building a sheet for or with them rather than just give them a discounted magic of 4 or 5 and pray they don't get up to any mischief with it.

There is still a complication to the "born around 1900 Immortal Elf" bit : his origins - if I'm not mistaken he would need to be the son/daughter of another IE - and the obviousness of his metatype at the time for everyone in the know would likely make him known by and thus a focus of intrigues and power plays by some of the heaviest hitter of the SR universe...

Actually, Ramaloke, I think you'll find he said 'hundred years plus', not 'several hundred and immortal'. I can see how you got confused by the title.

Spike babies do not come from Immortal Elf parents, they come from "human" parents just like all the elves born during UGE.

As with all the metatypes, the genes have been there since the Fourth World, but they could not express without a certain level of ambient magic.

So 5000 odd years ago, regular elves born before magic went away (and still alive when it did) stayed elves, but from then on had "human" babies. Five millennia later, their descendants were still genetically elves, but lived normal human lives since there was not enough magic when they were born for the elf genes to express.

After 2011, those "humans" had "elven" babies since the genes could express again.

A spike baby is just one of those elves born before 2011, since a local or short-term spike in magic (at the time of birth) allowed the genes to express even though magic had not yet returned in general.

I have often wondered if I could run a game in which each player had two characters: his character in Earth Dawn, and his character in Shadowrun, and they be the same. I think if you could do a story with a few very carefully planned episodes in which the Earth Dawn game were flash backs for the Shadowrun characters. You wouldn't have to play characters at the Harliquin level, I think 450 point modern day runners (with perhaps an extra 100 points of knowledge skills) , and 250 ish point Earth Dawn could work.

In that game the players would perhaps be nobles in one of the Tirs, and while powerful much of their power would be from position. Probably you wouldn't have the modern day players engage in combat at all: it would be mostly a social game, whereas in the past it would be one of those gritty "clawing my way up the cliff, hacking at the bodies of my enemies" type of games.

I was using this example to say "Nothing wrong with playing an Immortal Elf", as long as the GM is prepared to deal with it

not long ago I tried to create a Spike Baby myself (David Bowie ,a Hacker called Jareth)
my Houserule for Spikebabies was:
Advantage Spikebaby:
Cost +10 BP
Minimum Age 60 Years max 140(Born between 1930 and 2010) ,must be Elf
double the Bonus Knowledgepoints
Free CHA Points for Connections
-1D for Social Tests
(they are a little "Oldfashioned" and "out of Touch")
Scientific Curiosity
(might get in Trouble and become a "scientific Testobject")

with a Goblyndance
Medicineman

Why "Must be Elf" ? A spike-born dwarf is long-lived enough to still be around in 2070.

Wait, there's Spike Dwarfs? Guess I just decided on my new character concept!

Why not ? There also probably was the occasionnal orc or troll, but since those metatypes are shorter-lived they are not likely to have made it to 2070.

A) because its MY Houserule
and B) there were only once Spike Dwarves and this was in a very bad SR Novel,so I don't like this Idea
C) I don't....like Dwarfes ....well not really that I don't like them,but they're my least favorable Metarace
D) It's more than enough if there is only 1 "Spike-Variant"
@Dahrken
If Spike ,than only Elves or Dwarfes
the only official Ones are all Elves !(thats E )

with a Housedance
Medicineman

I'm a hacker now.

Hmm. I like that spike baby quality.

Actually, maybe it could even be adapted to represent an old (perhaps leonized) human. It's kinda tricky to build an old character, having some more knowledges and contacts instead of more BP in physical Attributes might make it easier to do.

That would be interesting for any old character, yes.

I'm playing a human character that was born in 2010. I'm having to make do by spending a ton of points on knowledge skills and taking some appropriate old man themed qualities.




-k

Spike babies were not immortal. They were normal elves that just happened to get born during a mana spike rather than in a new age. This is asking to be an immortal elf. SF already asked why does the player want to do this. Is he an experienced player who has a character concept in mind or is it a munchkin who thinks they sound cool? Until that is answered, we are spinning our wheels.

AFAIK, the player didn't ask for 'immortal', just "hundred years plus old elf". That fits 'spike baby' perfectly.

So, you have metarace you didn't like.

I'd be more sympathetic to that stance if he said he disliked pixies instead of dwarfs. Pixies never hit me as particularly interesting and I just don't feel like fielding questions about pixie heavy weapons experts. As such pixies aren't a PC option at my table.

I meant the late 20th, not 19th. Should have seen that mistake. My bad.

from the "core Races" (Including Hobbits ) ,I like Dwarves the least and Hobbits the most
from the Metavariants I prefer most the Fomori and least Haruman or these Amazonian Elves (Ghouls and other HMHVV is whay out of League. I would never ,ever play these! )
Pixies...I really don't care. Had an Earthdawn Windling(Elemental Mage) once.Was a fun Char ,but that was Earthdawn
I don't think that there is one Char Concept for a Pixie that can't be played with a ...more "serious" Race.

with a personal Dance
Medicineman

Where were Hobbits ever presented as a Shadowrun race.

The SR gnome is a halfling/hobbit in all but name and location. So just allow for a small British population of gnomes and there you go.

Official, not that I ever remember. Fan submitted? Yes. White Wolf magazine, IIRC. I will try and find the issue reference if you are masochistic enough.

They were done for earlt Second Ed and were from the Appalachias....yup, hillbilly jokes abound.

No, Hobbits are not Oficial (they're from a Fan base Product at SR2 or SR3 times but not WW IIRC) and as I play them they're a seperate Metarace (just like an Ork is no Troll Variant)
Buts thats just me and a Handfull of German players.The Gnome is even Smaller ,tinier than a Hobbit(and still get +2STR and BOD )

Ignore the Hobbits if you want to
....or I can PM the Stats if you want to

with a Dance in the Shires
Medicineman

I was old White Wolf Mag #21 or 36 or..., or Challenge. Can't remember, but it was SR1 or SR2. I reacall it wasn't a big article, maybe 1-3 pages at most I think.

And, as for a PM, if it was an open invite, then please and thank you. If not..........ah..OK.

<edit>
FOUND IT! Challenge Magazine #71, "1/2 the Attitude", SR2

Someone has the article reprinted on their web site. HERE

Is this the same article you have Medicineman?