Ignoring the multiple grammatical errors and misspelled words I've found (but unfortunately not documented... I'll get to that some time) in WAR!, the book so far is a great read with lots of fun information in it. Let's also ignore the strange availability/cost problem (a 26F drone that's only 1.9k ? Really?) for the moment. What we're left with is a very interesting problem in the new naval vessels section: ballast tanks. Now, these are not neccessarily indicative of a problem, but they are when they're added to nearly every ship (and by nearly I mean all but one) and only the submarine has life support. What does that mean? That means that when the Aircraft Carrier or the 120,000 metric ton cargo ship submerge all the seamen on board (and passangers, if any) drown if they don't have SCUBA gear.

Really? I mean, come on, they couldn't catch at least that one?

Although the ability to have a missile boat or aircraft carrier rise up out of the ocean as a sneak attack is greatly amusing, it would be better if the ships in question at least kept "skeleton crew" as a more figurative term.

Why are you running the shadows? - Because with War! my job on the USS Munchkin became much more dangerous and so I transfered into the Seattle shadows.

I don't have the 'War' book and can't comment on how ballast tanks are handled in the rules, but IRLballast tanks aren't limited to submarines. They're not large enough to ubmerge the ship but offers a way to balance a ship when it's cargo isn't. It's also a way to improve a ship's handling when traveling light.

In a warship they make sense as they allow to prevent listing when battle damage floods some of the ship's compatiments - without flooding more parts of the ship.

I am not surprised. Take a look at Running Wild. Many of the paracritter fishes do not have Gills.

IRL sure. In Shadowrun, however, "Ballast tanks are neccessary to turn any watercraft into a submersible, allowing the vehicle to submerge and, more importantly, rise to the surface afterward." Arsenal, page 133.

It's indicative of the depth of research and thinking that went into this.

That may be true (I don't know I will ask my Naval Architect friend when I next see him. However a statement of this form does not mean that every thing with ballast tanks is a submersible. In real life many things are necessary but not sufficient, and I suspect this is true here: for example I think I would need watertight doors, a pressure hull, and a suitable propulsion system to make a submarine, as well as ballast tanks.

You should have read the sentence you quoted further than the first comma
Per RAW, ballast tanks are a mod to turn a vehicle into a submersible. Even better, all those craft come with level 2 Ballast Tanks, and "Level 2 is a full pressure hull that allows the submersible to travel to all but the deepest or most hostile environments". So don't piss off the captain, or he'll keelhaul the whole ship

Well! Since required reading for prospective SR authors now is the SR4A base rules and the Almanac, you get what you can expect.

Given the amount of canon and rules violations, that would be just formalizing the status quo...

When my father used to work at the steel mill, every once in awhile he and others would have to go out on a raft to remove the screws. Heavy suckers. Anyway, the ships that they had to work on either had ballast tanks or had a lot of their load shifted to the front of the ship in order to raise the screws out of the water so that work could be done. I'm now reminded of the scene from Indiana Jones: The Last Crusader where their little power boat is getting chopped up by a larger ship's screws... I think I could adapt that into a possible offensive strategy in Shadowrun.... something involving a naval vessel with 4 screws with more stern of the other two..... use the forward screws to propel the ship in reverse... use ballast tanks to raise the stern-most screws just out of the water... brilliant!

My entire point is that while in the real world it should be expected to have ballast tanks, in Shadowrun ballast tanks have a specific function, and that is turning the vehicle into a submercible. By the RAW, that 120,000 metric ton cargo ship can rapidly dive to a fair depth, as can the aircraft carrier and missile boat. And everyone on board drowns since it doesn't have Life Support.

Even for Dumpshock this is a silly argument.

That is probably a case of bad copy/paste and no proof-reading (which sound like the norm for that book...) rather than an intended design feature.

Still, since with Ballast Tanks 2 the ships are assumed to have a pressure hull, the crew - like the cargo - would be inside it and thus not immersed in water. They will run out of oxygen and suffer from poor air quality thanks to the absence of life support, but I don't think they would die immediately by drowning.

Really? I thought it was rather watered down in comparison to some of the others

I have no regrets about that.

Careful, Wyld. I wouldn't want you to get in over your head.

Moo hooo hooo ha ha ha

I'm trying not to but this whole thread is starting to smell a little fishy.

On the subject though we see what they were trying to do, editing just screwed up on it like it did with a lot of things. At least this one actually makes sense and shows they tried to do some research.

I am in agreement with Dahrken's assesment of the situation. Please reference my signature for my opinion on the argument itself.

Pun Police, nobody move! WyldKnight, Doc Chase, you are both under arrest for Grievous Abuse of the English Language, and Assault with a Deadly Pun. You have the right to remain silent. If you choose to waive that right, for the love of great Cthulhu at least spare us the horrible jokes. You have the right to legal counsel. If you cannot afford an attorney, well, sucks to be you.

I got to say the tide of justice is hard to fight indeed.

I'll be calling my lawyer now.

Mind the pundertow.

"FREEZE! You're under arrest! You have the right to the remains of a silent attorney! If you cannot afford one... tough noogies! You can make ONE phone call! I recommend Trixie: 976-Triple 5-LOVE. Do you understand these rights as I have explained them to you?! Well do ya, PUNK?"

That's swell! No matter how the rest of us shore up our defenses, we continue to be inundated with dry humour. The best we can do is take it all with a grain of salt.

put a trifork in me, i'm done...

Oh my god, I'm being drowned by bad puns.
Some one throw me a float.

That's not going to save your life.

I'm sorry, that one seems weak. It won't float the boat of an old salt like me. Are you a little wet behind the ears?

All it took was one and now the puns own this thread, hook, line, and sinker

there she blows!

Was there ever a topic to this thread? Oh right, who can think of the most puns.

Well, the Titanic, the Bismark and the Yamato will have some good company now that this thread has sunk this low . .
If it had ballast tanks, then it could appear to be afloat again in some posts.

We should take the wind out of the sails of those who flood it with these nautical puns and steer it back on course .

I would have taken it seriously if you hadn't added more fuel to the proverbial maritime oil spill.

"I'm sorry Capt'n, i cannae do that!"

How about some seedy jokes about seamen then? You know, those guys who often appear as one white mass...

Ow! My seamen!

The amount of jokes to be made about this are vas. I will leave a few in deferens to someone else.

Screw that. I won't keel to your jibs.

-- A bit more on-topic ...

There are an inordinate number of ships that have Ballast Tank 2 (full deep-diving pressure hulls) and no life support and no note regarding that fact. It always struck me as odd that Shadowrun submersibles don't suffer a speed penalty underwater despite the MUCH higher drag and largely incompatible hydrodynamic streamlining requirements ... but anyways.

See Arsenal, , p. 133-145 for the Ballast Tank description. Ballast tanks do not affect ship survivability in combat. See War!, p. 171

No Shadowrun naval ship has compartmentalization. Once a ship hull is breached you better repair it or you will sink no matter what as nothing contains the flooding. On the plus side Shadowrun naval damage control is incredibly easy -- you can repair a multi-meter hole in one minute outside of combat (see War!, p. 172). It takes about one minute per meter of repairs in combat. Note that placement of the hole doesn't matter

Aside from the freaky things Tzeetch discovers here, is it not true that some if not all submarines can actually travel faster when fully submerged?

Yes, but that's because they're shaped like submarines and powered by a system that doesn't like low depth/speed ratios allowing cavitation; assuming that the ships in WAR! are actually boat-shaped (and yes, I recognize that with all the other weirdness in that section, it's a stretch) there should be a massive speed penalty.

Also, this might be a very cleverly hidden way of subtly encouraging competence: after the ship sinks and washes off the crew who were so inconsiderate of the bottom line that they got in the way of enemy shells (after all, if they get hit, better to let the ship sink with that damage than to compartmentalize it and let one's competitors shoot more of the very expensive ship away), the megacorps can inflate the ship to bring it to the surface and reload/rearm it.

Well, Tzeentch was specifically talking about submersibles. That's what I was asking about.

My apologies for my misunderstanding; for some reason I read "submersibles" as "anything that can submerge, including these new warships".

-- Hulls optimized for underwater travel are not very good at the surface (largely due to swamping and roll) because ideally you want something shaped like a short spike with minimal surface area to control parasitic drag as water moves over the hull. Surface vessels want to minimize their water contact surface as well, but they can spread it out more (catamarans, hydrofoils, SWATH, etc) and benefit from their buoyancy more easily. Strictly speaking you are highly unlikely to be able to design a hull that operates well at the surface and underwater at the same effectiveness, one will have to lose out in some way (speed, handling, stability).

-- Shadowrun vehicle "design" has bigger problems than this though

See also:

Burcher, Roy, and Rydill, Louis. Concepts in Submarine Design (Cambridge University Press, 1995).

Agreed...

I hate it when fleas dress as the opposite gender.


There's no argument - I'm just pointing out something interesting in the RAW. Just remember: not allowing an aircraft carrier to fully submerge is going away from RAW and implementing house rules.

Quick question - are the aircraft also designed to submerge? Or are they just left floating on the surface?

-- If it is really supposed to be a submersible or semi-submersible vehicle, then the aircraft are probably stored in a sealed hangar area as they lack Ballast Tanks.

So can the "submerged" aircraft subsequently be launched from "all but the deepest" areas of the ocean ,into the air instantly? No ballast tanks means no sumersion, after all.
Also, can I assume that instant acceleration takes my T-bird to its full Speed characteristic, or does it go beyond safe limits?

Seems like a proper balancing factor for Slows instant deceleration.

That's an excellent question. I haven't seen any rules which say you can't do it...