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WhiskeyJohnny
My DM has decided that if we have to make new characters, they must have no dice pools exceeding 14. So how many skills/abilities can I get up to 14? Also, would it be possible to get my shooting/melee dice pools high enough to dual wield with a 14 for each weapon?

As my current character is the group's hacker, this character needs to be able to hack, but apart from that I'm interested to see how many skills I can have maxed out under these strictures.
Aku
Umm, you're GM needs to be slapped, because dice pools include situational modifiers, so it's almost impossible to say "no more" than X...
Makki
off the top of my head: Elf with Shiva Arms, Metagenetic Agi, Muscle Toner 4, Gyromount, Gasvent 3 Assault Rifle, Tracer Rounds, Automatics 6 (spec Assault)

base: Agi 12+ Skill 6

one assault on each side: 9 + 2 spec + 3 Tracer = 14 dice for two Full Bursts...
Doc Chase
I think the GM means that stat+skill+mod shouldn't exceed 14. Situational modifiers aren't going to add or drop a billion dice here, so it can remain in the power level the GM wants - which is basically no emotitoys, no big foci, no sniping cascades.

WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Aku @ Dec 29 2010, 11:55 AM) *
Umm, you're GM needs to be slapped, because dice pools include situational modifiers, so it's almost impossible to say "no more" than X...


Not really, because he controls the situational modifiers. He just doesn't want us to have native dice pools higher than 14.

QUOTE (Makki @ Dec 29 2010, 11:55 AM) *
off the top of my head: Elf with Shiva Arms, Metagenetic Agi, Muscle Toner 4, Gyromount, Gasvent 3 Assault Rifle, Tracer Rounds, Automatics 6 (spec Assault)

base: Agi 12+ Skill 6

one assault on each side: 9 + 2 spec + 3 Tracer = 14 dice for two Full Bursts...


Ok, and that works with Machine Pistols as well, right? 'Cause those are the weapons I'd like to use. Though I'm not sure how Shiva Arms would work with them...
sabs
that's exactly the kind of character he doesn't want you to have.

that thing is a munchkin's wet dream.

WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 29 2010, 12:03 PM) *
that's exactly the kind of character he doesn't want you to have.

that thing is a munchkin's wet dream.


The kind with the Shiva arms or the kind with sufficient dice to have 14 and 14 after the split? Or the kind with as many things maxed out (at 14) as possible? 'Cause that last one is ok, he says - he'd prefer versatility to power.
klinktastic
I'm working up a 400 BP version of my 320 Go Ganger who has about 15 skills with about 10-12 dice. Anothe 80 BPs should get me into some as to what you're looking at.
sabs
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Dec 29 2010, 08:10 PM) *
The kind with the Shiva arms or the kind with sufficient dice to have 14 and 14 after the split? Or the kind with as many things maxed out (at 14) as possible? 'Cause that last one is ok, he says - he'd prefer versatility to power.


shiva arms is fine
shiva arms with 14 dice after the split so you can fire 2 full bursts at max dicepool every IP... that's super munchkin
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 29 2010, 08:13 PM) *
shiva arms is fine
shiva arms with 14 dice after the split so you can fire 2 full bursts at max dicepool every IP... that's super munchkin


Yes, I think it ignores the spirit of the restriction while joyfully poking at the letter. Not an endearing trait, that. nyahnyah.gif
Makki
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Dec 29 2010, 10:02 PM) *
Ok, and that works with Machine Pistols as well, right? 'Cause those are the weapons I'd like to use. Though I'm not sure how Shiva Arms would work with them...


you can use 4 MPs if you want. you could get (18/4=4.5)
4+2+3=9
4+2+3=9
5+2+3=10
5+2+3=10
dice for your full bursts rotfl.gif
sabs
Did we mention you'er a BAD BAD man, Makki?
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Dec 29 2010, 12:12 PM) *
I'm working up a 400 BP version of my 320 Go Ganger who has about 15 skills with about 10-12 dice. Anothe 80 BPs should get me into some as to what you're looking at.


Sounds good, I'd love to take a look. I'm trying to make my BPs stretch, as you can imagine.

QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 29 2010, 12:13 PM) *
shiva arms is fine
shiva arms with 14 dice after the split so you can fire 2 full bursts at max dicepool every IP... that's super munchkin

QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 29 2010, 12:17 PM) *
Yes, I think it ignores the spirit of the restriction while joyfully poking at the letter. Not an endearing trait, that. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (Makki @ Dec 29 2010, 12:22 PM) *
you can use 4 MPs if you want. you could get (18/4=4.5)
4+2+3=9
4+2+3=9
5+2+3=10
5+2+3=10
dice for your full bursts rotfl.gif


Yeah, that part is more of a thought exercise, just to see if I could do it. Though he's considering allowing it, as long as I make a solemn promise never to use a weapon singly - and he says that if I do I'll still be capped at 14 dice. And I'm only looking for two arms, I think, four MPs is a little much.

Edit: Oh, and has anybody mentioned how incredibly helpful, welcoming, and awesome this forum is? Seriously, you guys are great.
Makki
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 29 2010, 10:23 PM) *
Did we mention you'er a BAD BAD man, Makki?


Maybe I'm Bad Santa, yet I deliver as requested grinbig.gif
klinktastic
Here's a quick pitch:

Bod 5, Agi 5 (7), Rea 4 (5), Str 3, Cha 3, Int 5, Log 2, Will 5, Edge 3 (Total of 230 BPs stats and metatype)

Skills (150 in skills)
Athletics Group 1
Cracking Group 4
Electronics Group 1
Influence Group 2
Stealth Group 1
First Aid 1
Automatics 6
Perception 3
Gunnery (remote control) 2
Pilot (remote control) 2

Key Qualities
First Impression

Key 'Wares (using 50 BPs for resources)
Toners 2
Attention Coprocesser 3
Math CPU
PuSHeD
Encephalon 1
Enchanced Phermone Receptors 3
Tailored Phermones 2
Syntha Cardium 3

(you can decide on used standard or standard as you have money)

Key Equipment
Something with vision enhance 3
Something with hearing enhance 3
Common programs at 6
Hacking programs at 3 (except maybe exploit)

Social skills = 3 (charisma) + 2 (skill) + 2 (tailored ps) + 2 (enhanced PRs) + 2 (first impression) = 11 dice (add specialties to taste once game begins)
Hacking skills 3 (program) + 4 (skill) + 1 (pushed) + 1 (encephalon) + 2 (VR) = 11 dice (13 dice for e-warfare due to Math CPU)
Prception = 3 (skill) + 5 (int) + 3 (att copro) + 3 (vision/hearing enhance) = 14
Remote Drone Operations = 2 (skill) + 2 (spec) + 6 (command program) + 2 (VR) = 14 dice
Athletics Group = 7 (agility) + 1 (skill) + 3 (synthacardium) = 11 dice
Autos = 7 (agility) + 6 (skill) + 1 (laser sight) = 14 dice (im sure you could go smartlink, since you'll take penalities recoil and such)
Computer Group 1 (skill) + 6 (common program) + 1 (pushed) + 1 (encephalon) + 2 (VR) = 11 dice

You also have quite a bit of cash laying around so you can add reflex recorders to add a dice as you see fit. Also, replacing a foot and adding nanohive for neocortical nanities could give you another 1-3 dice for hacking. Don't forget after the game starts you can pirate or write software to get it up to rating 6.

Edit - Should give you and idea of how well rounded you can make yourself.
Ascalaphus
But if you have 14 dice each after splitting, doesn't that mean you have more than 14 before splitting, thus violating the restriction?
Fauxknight
I know I mention this a lot, but you can not fire 2 or more weapons at the same time with full bursts. The rules for using multiple weapons with the same action require you to be using simple actions only, and full bursts are explicitly a complex action.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 29 2010, 12:33 PM) *
But if you have 14 dice each after splitting, doesn't that mean you have more than 14 before splitting, thus violating the restriction?


Yes, but he may be willing to allow me to have sufficient dice to pull it off, as I'll functionally have only 14 dice.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Dec 29 2010, 12:29 PM) *
Here's a quick pitch:

[ Spoiler ]

Edit - Should give you and idea of how well rounded you can make yourself.


Excellent, thanks. I presume you're an Ork?
klinktastic
Ah yep, sorry Ork it is. I did 50 BPs in resources and touched about 120k of them. I'd recommend using combat drugs (Cram) for meat IPs since you can go Hot Sim VR for 4 IPs in Matrix while hacking/remote controlling stuff. However, you should have essense and cash for wire reflexes 2. You end up saving a lot of cash with rating 3 hacking software, which you can plug back in for drones, weapons, and more 'wares. Also, you're good a being a face (tho light on contacts), you can do other leg work like data search, you can fit into any situation. Need fire support, ok, I'll sit in the van and fly some drones in and hack. Oh, you need me to be on site to hack, ok, I'm pretty durable, decent dodge pool, and auto's pool. So you have things to do in ever stage of the 'run, and you're versatile so you don't have to stick to the same plan every mission.
klinktastic
Oh yeah, to see my character in action check him out:

IC Thread

OOC Thread

Had to use social skills a lot, and they've paid off. Lots of data searches, they've been successful. Wheelman, check. Spoofing a car to disrupt some bad guys, check. Now I just need to bash someone in the head with my stun baton and I'll be happy.
Jhaiisiin
Could always brain the next random passerby just to get your kicks. wink.gif
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Dec 29 2010, 12:52 PM) *
Ah yep, sorry Ork it is. I did 50 BPs in resources and touched about 120k of them. I'd recommend using combat drugs (Cram) for meat IPs since you can go Hot Sim VR for 4 IPs in Matrix while hacking/remote controlling stuff. However, you should have essense and cash for wire reflexes 2. You end up saving a lot of cash with rating 3 hacking software, which you can plug back in for drones, weapons, and more 'wares. Also, you're good a being a face (tho light on contacts), you can do other leg work like data search, you can fit into any situation. Need fire support, ok, I'll sit in the van and fly some drones in and hack. Oh, you need me to be on site to hack, ok, I'm pretty durable, decent dodge pool, and auto's pool. So you have things to do in ever stage of the 'run, and you're versatile so you don't have to stick to the same plan every mission.


Yeah, this looks similar to what I'm trying to do. I'm going to try and re-work this build a little, to focus less on drones and to be an Adept, but this seems like a good start.
klinktastic
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Dec 29 2010, 03:30 PM) *
Yeah, this looks similar to what I'm trying to do. I'm going to try and re-work this build a little, to focus less on drones and to be an Adept, but this seems like a good start.



You can probably get more outta being mundane than an adept. Adepts are better at specializing, but mundane is probably better for being a generalist. And I know the drones aren't sexy, but you can equip them with heavy weapons down to light weapons with gunnery. It gives you a certain flexability. With Gunnery 2 and Pilot 2 plus specializations it costs you 20 BPs to have 12 dice with drones (skill 2, spec 2, command 6, and VR 2). Its a signficantly small investment for potentially huge rewards.
Mäx
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Dec 29 2010, 11:35 PM) *
You can probably get more outta being mundane than an adept. Adepts are better at specializing, but mundane is probably better for being a generalist.

That's debatable, you can after all get 4 IP:s by going the adept route when you don't need those power points for super specializing.
Mäx
Damm, these forums need flood protection so bad. wink.gif
klinktastic
I guess that is true. But all the bonus dice you can get from cyber/bio can help trump that, espeically if you're gonna be hacking in VR for bonus dice (which the character will be doing). I suppose you can hack in AR, but you lose those dice, making a nanohive more important, but hard to fit in due to limits on essence.

edit - on the remote control rigging. Forgot to mention the benefits of smartlink, +2 (now 14 dice to gunnery on drones) and any handling bonuses for your drones (getting you extra dice to your pilot skill as well).
Mäx
you can fit some nice stuff on the 2 points of essence free, especially when that doesn't have to include expensive IP boosters.

For a generalist like the OP wanted, i would make a Dryad adept with high charisma and logic and minimum agility, get 2-3 IP:s from adept power and Mind Over Matter (Logic) allowing me to replace agility with that boosted logic biggrin.gif
WhiskeyJohnny
I mostly wanna keep away from drones because we already have a dedicated rigger, so I'd rather not be stepping on his toes. I was thinking of going adept since my current character is heavily cybered out, and I wanted to branch out a little. But I haven't gotten the character fully worked out in my head, so he could go either way.

QUOTE (Mäx @ Dec 29 2010, 02:56 PM) *
you can fit some nice stuff on the 2 points of essence free, especially when that doesn't have to include expensive IP boosters.

For a generalist like the OP wanted, i would make a Dryad adept with high charisma and logic and minimum agility, get 2-3 IP:s from adept power and Mind Over Matter (Logic) allowing me to replace agility with that boosted logic biggrin.gif


Mind Over Matter's in War! right? I don't have that book...
klinktastic
And it also sounds like power creep. Not sure any GM I know would let that go into play. Obviously that's an ask the GM before you build a character around it power.
Mäx
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Dec 30 2010, 12:00 AM) *
Mind Over Matter's in War! right? I don't have that book...

Yeap, for 1,5PP it allows you to replace one physical attribute with a mental attribute(using same substitution as for astral stats) for tests.
I wouldn't really call it power creep, the only use for it is to get it for logic if your making a high logic character that also needs good pools for agility linked skills.
WhiskeyJohnny
I don't have War! so I won't be able to use that anyways.
klinktastic
It's pretty expensive I guess, but its uber powerful. so 1.5 pps costs what, 15BPs? To save you what? 50 BPs? Na, not power creep at all.
Ryu
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Dec 29 2010, 07:37 PM) *
My DM has decided that if we have to make new characters, they must have no dice pools exceeding 14. So how many skills/abilities can I get up to 14? Also, would it be possible to get my shooting/melee dice pools high enough to dual wield with a 14 for each weapon?

As my current character is the group's hacker, this character needs to be able to hack, but apart from that I'm interested to see how many skills I can have maxed out under these strictures.

Assuming groups bought at rating 4, you´d need 10 dice from other sources. Agility 10 is most easily reached by getting Muscle Toner 4 (Restricted Gear) on an Elf, giving you tons of skills to master. An Orc with Exceptional Attribute would likely be even better.

Get high Intuition for solid Initiative and knowledge skills, add Synthacardium to boost Athletics to target levels and Mnemonic Enhancers to run over knowledge skills.
InfinityzeN
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=797434

I know he is to much BP for your game, but he'll give you a good working base.
toturi
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 30 2010, 03:17 AM) *
Yes, I think it ignores the spirit of the restriction while joyfully poking at the letter. Not an endearing trait, that. nyahnyah.gif

I think the GM made his bed, he should lie in it; if he didn't like how the players were going to use it, he shouldn't have made it.

Is the dice pool capped at 14 or is it maximum 14? Can you have more than 14 dice but is limited to only 14 to roll, perhaps so you could perform just as well under adverse conditions eg. if you are wounded? Or the largest possible dice pool before adding situational dice is 14?
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Dec 30 2010, 07:40 AM) *
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=797434

I know he is to much BP for your game, but he'll give you a good working base.


I'll check him out, thanks!

QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 30 2010, 08:02 AM) *
Or the largest possible dice pool before adding situational dice is 14?


This.
WhiskeyJohnny
Ok, so an update: My GM is fine with me having Clubs and Machine Pistols to 24 (26 w/specialization) so that my dual wielding dice pools are 14 and 14. Of course, this is predicated on my creating a Werewolf (we seem to be embracing the pink mohawk more and more). I'm not sure if this means proper Loup-Garou, or if it means a SURGEd Wolf-Man type (I have to be able to transform, so that may rule out the SURGE option). Is that playable? Any suggestions for playing a Werewolf?
Stahlseele
If you want to transform, then you need to do a shapeshifter, not a surgeling.
But you can really try your GM's patience and surge the shifter for some fun.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 5 2011, 04:29 PM) *
If you want to transform, then you need to do a shapeshifter, not a surgeling.
But you can really try your GM's patience and surge the shifter for some fun.


I thought a shapeshifter was separate from the Loup-Garou - it's something to check out though. I'd rather not have a character who requires metahuman flesh to survive.
Stahlseele
Shifters don't need Metahuman Flesh.
Those are the Vampire types born from the HMHVV. Like the Loup Garoup.
Shapeshifter has other problems.
You have to understand that with an infected, you're playing the embodyment of the black plague.
And with a shapeshifter, you are NOT playing a Metahuman that can turn into an animal.
You ARE playing an ANIMAL THAT CAN TURN INTO A METAHUMAN.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 5 2011, 04:38 PM) *
And with a shapeshifter, you are NOT playing a Metahuman that can turn into an animal.
You ARE playing an ANIMAL THAT CAN TURN INTO A METAHUMAN.


Is there any way to play a Metahuman who can shift into an animal-esque form? That's really what I'm looking for. Kinda like D&D's (3.5's) Human/Hybrid/Wolf forms.
Stahlseele
Play a mage with the Shape Shift Spell. Closest you are going to get. You'll just have to get your GM drunk or bribe him so he allows you to stop the change in between and not only have a human and an animal form.
Or play a Drake. but if you want to play something wolfish, then you're a bit limited. And why a Wolf of all things? There are MORE were-animals in SR than just wolves . . TIGERS! With black and red striped fur! Or a Bear of a Man *snickers*
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 5 2011, 04:47 PM) *
Play a mage with the Shape Shift Spell. Closest you are going to get. You'll just have to get your GM drunk or bribe him so he allows you to stop the change in between and not only have a human and an animal form.
Or play a Drake. but if you want to play something wolfish, then you're a bit limited. And why a Wolf of all things? There are MORE were-animals in SR than just wolves . . TIGERS! With black and red striped fur! Or a Bear of a Man *snickers*


I might play a Drake. If my GM will allow it. And there's already one Mage in the party, so that route is a no go (I could play an Adept though).

As to why a Werewolf, it's a long story, involving a Mage who likes to cast spells on his party members, a Mage who got partially vivisected (He got better! And yes, it's the same Mage), the Day Job "Cabaret Master of Ceremonies", the song "Werewolves of London", the Threepenny Opera, and Abe Sapien from Hellboy.

Actually, on the subject of playing Drakes, are they playable? Not by the rules I mean (the answer to that is obvious), but in game, do they work?
Stahlseele
For Wonderworms.
WhiskeyJohnny
Ok, so, Drakes are out, Loup-Garou is in, for the time being. My goals with this build are as follows: get as many dice pools to 14 (but no higher) as possible, be a hacker, get two dice pools (Clubs and Machine Pistols) to 24 (26 w/Spec) so that when split for dual-wielding my dice pools equal 14, be able to counterspell. Also, I'd like to be an Adept, or maybe a Mystic Adept (I'd have to be the latter to get Invisibility and such, right?).

A build is forthcoming, watch this space. If you've got suggestions on how to achieve these goals, I'm all ears.

Edit: Also, I'm thinking about being a Banshee instead of a Loup-Garou. Is this advisable? What are the upsides/downsides, if I may ask?
Dahrken
Loup-Garou is IMHO a BAD idea. Why ? 5 days in 28 you are savage and berserk, and I'm not sure your teammates will tolerate cohabiting with a physcally powerful, human-eating and berserk biohazard... that's the kind of thing that can litteraly bite you back. Also the HMVV strain responsible for the disease is even more powerful than the one for ghoul, and acts much faster.
Mäx
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Jan 11 2011, 03:46 AM) *
Edit: Also, I'm thinking about being a Banshee instead of a Loup-Garou. Is this advisable? What are the upsides/downsides, if I may ask?

Very advisable, upside is that you have much better chance to be able to reach those high weapon skill pool with the elfs agility then humans.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Jan 10 2011, 11:24 PM) *
Loup-Garou is IMHO a BAD idea. Why ? 5 days in 28 you are savage and berserk, and I'm not sure your teammates will tolerate cohabiting with a physcally powerful, human-eating and berserk biohazard... that's the kind of thing that can litteraly bite you back. Also the HMVV strain responsible for the disease is even more powerful than the one for ghoul, and acts much faster.


QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 10 2011, 11:29 PM) *
Very advisable, upside is that you have much better chance to be able to reach those high weapon skill pool with the elfs agility then humans.


Yeah, the Cannibalistic Berserker Biohazard issue is why I'm considering Banshee. And apparently it helps me with my character goals.

I'm still having trouble getting my Automatics and Clubs skills high enough. Since I can't use smartguns and smartlinks, I lose out on some dice, and I'm still not familiar enough with the system to know what other tricks I might use. Somebody mentioned tracers, and that's all well and good (save for the whole "reveals my position" thing - maybe I can get delayed ignition tracers?) for the guns, but what about clubs?
Yerameyahu
Sorry, why no smartthings?
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