Havocs
Others are acolytes of entropic
forces, driven by a sociopathic compulsion to bring down
symbols of authority and order and seed chaos and bedlam.

By eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies,
mores, and rules through campaigns of mass murder or
targeted assassination, the havocs believe that modern civilization
will crack under its own weight and give humankind a
chance at a new start.

Havoc toxics favor insidious strategies
and carefully laid plans, working from within to bring chaos
and ruin to their targeted groups and individuals.

This sub-path of the toxics is not inherently evil. Why is that?

Cos in the cold dark world of Shadowrun, the symbols of authority are the Evil Megacorps. Megas have created a sick structure of social hierarchies where the megas are the kings, the govts are the puppets and the citizens are the slaves.

Robin Hood/ V for Vengance did not bring mass chaos to the citizens. Instead they targeted evil individuals and specific locations to cause the maximum amount of good.

Bringing down evil megacorps and preventing them from causing more damage to the environment and humanity is a just and noble act, isn't it? Giving humankind a chance to start all over again and not destroying humankind itself, how is that evil?

In fact, I can even see Havocs Toxics fighting against Reapers Toxics. Reapers wanna destroy everything and are just as bad as the megas themselves.

It would be an interesting fight .. Havocs versus Reapers.. A case of fighting Poison with Poison ..

One definition of 'evil' could certainly be "eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies, mores, and rules through campaigns of mass murder or targeted assassination". This is a classic 'villain' modus operandi. It's the classic 'terrorists'/'freedom fighters'.

Toxics are certainly evil to some, and probably many.

I see what you did there.
See, I can make it too:

Havocs
Others are acolytes of entropic
forces, driven by a sociopathic compulsion to bring down
symbols of authority and order and seed chaos and bedlam.

By eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies,
mores, and rules through campaigns of mass murder or
targeted assassination, the havocs believe that modern civilization
will crack under its own weight and give humankind a
chance at a new start.

Havoc toxics favor insidious strategies
and carefully laid plans, working from within to bring chaos
and ruin to their targeted groups and individuals.

See? I just emphasized another aspect of the havocs and put Heath Ledger's Joker on the same group that Robin Hood and V are.
They are crazy, period. That's what is the most scary thing about toxic mages.

But what is evil to one person is not necessarily evil to another person.

Case in point.. the war brewing between Aze and Amazonia.

Aze soldiers probably think that Amazonia people are evil and Amazonia soldiers probably think that Aze people are evil.

Many poor citizens probably think that the megas are evil for taking advantage of their poverty while the megas think they are justified to trample on the poor for profit.

I bet that Havocs are heroes in the eyes of the poor for bringing down the almighty megas. Just check out the crowd reactions in Robin Hood and V.

Only Joker the toxic mage is crazy.

V is maybe just a tad crazy.

Robin Hood the toxic is the sanest thinker out there who see the most clearly.

What about the megas? I can probably make the same claim for many CEOs working in the megas. That they are criminally insane.

That's what I just said. However, it's not a contest. Toxics of all kinds use methods and have behaviors that would commonly be considered evil of some kind. The point isn't that you could find someone who'd like them. Brazilian_Shinobi rightly pointed out that you highlighted 'targeted assassination' instead of 'mass murder'.

And your characterization of Robin Hood is a pretty fringe one. Maybe the Michael Bay version.

That is because it clearly states that some toxics use "targeted assassination" instead of "mass murder".

All the megas in SR4 have no compulsion about using mass murders if they can get away with it.

Yes there are some toxics who use all methods and have behaviours that would be considered evil.

There are also some toxics who use methods who only hurt those who deserve it. Kinda like "honor between thieves". Just like Robin Hood and V.

And the rest are in between.

Are you gonna claim that ALL toxics are mass-murderers then?

No one said megacorps can't be evil.

Actually, it doesn't say 'instead of'. It's true that some might not, but we're talking about categories here.

It really depends on if you believe in relative morality, or absolute morality.

Either belief will completely alter and color how you think about the subject.

So much so that it is probably a bad idea to try debating about it, because folks that believe the other way are generally not going to change their belief.




-k

In any case, I think we're ignoring the assumption here: who cares whether or not anything is 'evil'? They're simply too crazy to be playable characters under any normal circumstances. You can't be a mega-CEO either. In fact, a certain level of 'evil' is a near-requirement for Shadowrunners.

Yeah right he's a good guy of sorts.. just think about what the result of that 'benevolent' guy will be in a society as heavily urbanized and interlinked society as that of shadowrun...

It won't be an extinction-level event, but the body count would make the khmer rouge proud. Sure the methods are a bit cleaner, but the endstate he's aiming for is will give a population as reduced as his more extremist buddies, even if it isn't as bad as the reaper's ones.

"or" or "instead of" .. same meaning different words..

again, i am not saying all toxics are heroes..

i am merely saying not all toxics are the type of megalomaniac villains like the joker..

some toxics can be heroes too aka robin hood and V for Vengeance

Again let me stress that I am not applying the same appeal for all toxics.. A lot of toxics are clearly deranged and evil but ALL of them?.. that is being racist..

Define "crazy"?

I care about where something is "evil" ..

Cos I am starting a toxic group where the main objective is to raid/destroy the corps and give some of the loot to the poor aka Shadow Run Robin Hood..

Can you quote any RAW from the books which state that the level of destruction committed by a Havoc toxic would be as bad as the khmer?

Are there any minimum numbers of assassinations which a toxic havoc has to achieve?

I think not..

It is a subjective interpretation not an objective one..

I don't think it's a subjective one - those guy's goal is expressely stated as 'making civilization crumble under it's own weight'. I fail to see any way of doing that that wouldn't result in a massive (as in at least 50%) dieoff as said civilization has enabled population numbers that can't be supported without it's infrastructure. The transition period during which the crumbling happen and something new emerges will be especially bad in that regard. He won't cause those death directly, but neither did Pol Pot handle personnaly the casualties his regime has caused. The dieoff might not be the goal, but it's an inevitable and either accepted or blisfully ignored consequence of succes.

It's a rather constant pattern in history that when a minority tries to forces it's opinion on the majority, said majority tends to get hit hard as the extremist often try to'wipe the slate clean' to write their ideals on it. The more extreme the minority's ideology, the more thorough the wiping, and in the case of the havocs, you'll have to look hard to find equally extreme.

Yeah, I can buy some of this. I can see shaman who turn down the toxic route while still having pure(ish) intentions and who still retain a lot of their humanity. Heck, it could be a really cool roleplaying opportunity. There's no reason being a toxic should be the defining character feature of a toxic shaman. If you want to run a group like that, more power to you, should be really cool.

Over time, however, these guys are gonna go nuts. As I understand it (I generally stay on the techy side of Shadowrun), their mentor spirits are the literal embodiments of chaotic evil and the use of their power literally corrupts their "soul". Doesn't mean they can't be good anymore than a runner who shoots up K-10 before making a run to donate to an orphanage is evil but that doesn't change the fact that both of them are slowly going to go mad and probably wind up killing everyone around them in a brutal manner. No one maintains their sanity in that kind of situation.

Being toxic doesn't mean you have to be evil but it's a pretty clear indication of which way the character is headed. V and Robin Hood and basically anyone else you want to mention didn't have these problems but they also didn't shoot heroin every morning. These are the kind of forces which alter your mentality in ways you can't really fight. Sure, a toxic could have good intentions and could use his powers righteously for awhile but it's a losing fight, he's trying to retain his humanity and while he's still using these powers they're going to change his mentality, drain his humanity, and there's no way for him to get that back unless he stops using them.

If you're planning on playing one, that's cool but this is pretty much you're pre-defined character arc: a descent into madness until you quit or die. If you want to play an anarchist shaman, play an anarchist shaman, there's no lack of "dark" anarchist groups fighting for their perception of good. Toxic is the deep, messed up part of that pool and there's not really any reason to try and move them into the "misunderstood" category. Besides the fact that if you're planning on playing one, by definition, there's a one million nuyen bounty on your head posted by the closest thing Shadowrun has to Jesus. Why would any group of runners pass up that bounty so they can run with a guy who will probably degenerate into a raving madman, sorry, a raving madman with serious magical firepower and a tiny Joker on his shoulders telling him to BURN EVERYTHING.

There's no such thing as a kindly old toxic shaman. You quit or you go mad.

Toxic Shamans represent a Lovecraftian evil that sits within all men's souls. Their goals may have been pure to begin with, but the nature of destruction and power is an inherently corrupting influence.
That is the place they hold in the story. To play them as heroes is to play the game backwards, in an old RPG parlance.

To the point of moral relativism, it can be said that George Washington wanted to overthrow a corrupt system as well, but we aren't talking about polite freedom fighters here, we're talking about people who want to overthrow an entire system upon which people's lives depend to suite their own whim and fancy.
They have decided the system is evil and they have decided they have the right to destroy it. They didn't ask me if I want it destroyed. I might like my life in my MCT Archology and my kids might not want to get blown up because they eat at McDonalds.
If the shamans just wanted to get out of the thumbs of the megas, they have options. Move to Greenland or Amazonia. Tons of places in the 6th world civilization can't touch.
These shamans have proposed that a system of their own devising is greater than the will of the individual. And as that individual, you don't get to decide how I live my life. In that way they are exactly like the corps, only with less money. They are just as evil, but with an evil spirit guiding them, making them more evil.

And it is V for Vendetta not Vengeance. Alan Moore is going to come out of his creepy, British, una-bomber style shack and do unspeakable things to you with his hobo beard if you don't get that right!

EDIT:
That, and toxic/blood magic brings forth the Horrors to kill all mankind, hence Big D's bounty on them.

Are you sure about that, draco foundation does after all want them alive and at least in the blood mages case only those who are on the "extraction list" provided by them

Then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom

Toxics are supposed to be evil incarnate. In a game mostly played from the perspective of outcasts with a heavy crypto-anarchist and anti-authoritarian angle. Go figure

Besides, you should admit that the only reason you want to rehabilitate toxic paths is so you can cherry-pick your spirits and powers.

This is a silly statement.
You can not ask "What is evil?" and then start throwing around different moral paradigmas. (Without judging or even analysing them.)

Of course you may find some aspects which do not disgust your group. Of course you may build a toxic shamen around them and still have some common ground with the rules.

I do have to admit, that this is (unfortunatly) very common in fantasy litrature. Building up sterotypes, somethimes contradicting the "game rules" or just common sense, and use those to break the "sterotype" known as game rules or common sense.

Some examples are the "evil" Praioten in DSA or "good" servants of Arch Daemons.
This is done by giving a fantasy believe system the appearance of what is believed of the catholic church during medival times. Ignoring completly that it is canon that 1. Gods exist and 2. their existance can be perceived and proven 3. everything said about the believe system in question.

But that alone shows that Shadowrun also succumbs to the crappy "evil does it better" mentality that is designed to make game mastering easier - because the evil guys just GET more and better toys, you don't have to really think about how to hand them out.

I've also always thought that all this toxic/horror whatever crap is just a lame tack-on to a game that is inherently too "evil" to be scary any more. You've already got a world devoid of inherent morals, but that's not enough, there has to be something left that's objectively evil and beyond the grasp of PCs. Which is really just lame in my opinion, but then I guess we have the original designers to thank for this.

At least insect spirits are just aliens who want to... do whatever, and obviously humans aren't going to like it. Toxics are dumb. They should have just said they are psychotic mages and left it at that.

Just my opinion, whatever...

I'm Sure About That

Don't forget his crazy master plan for what he'll do with them.

pattyhuelz, your choice of Robin Hood is an odd one, and one that I don't think fits unless you generalize it out far enough to be pretty meaningless. Your characterization of V seems reasonable accurate. But then again, he's an insane vigilante, not a hero. Just because his motivations are sympathetic and understandable doesn't somehow make them "heroic".

Clearly, you should have chosen the Toxic Avenger as your champion example.

Robin Hood was very clear in that he didn't want to bring down the Crown, only the corrupt infuences that stood in its stead while Richard was on his Crusade. He upheld just laws, and ensured that the people could buy food and pay their taxes.

All this doesn't really matter in the end - you wish to justify being toxic, and you aren't going to find justification here. Just houserule your Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpses, and don't tell us what happens.

My Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpse has the positive Quality "Everyone I Fight Dies" and "Wins the Game Three Times in a Game"

There's another little spark of hate now, just for that. Grr.

What, no Technomancy?

Just take a 6/6 contact free sprite for that.

Megacorporation aren't evil. They don't want to enslave people. They don't commit mass murder. From a moral POV, They don't do nothing at all, they are just legal constructs!

People working in these corporation might be evil, or ruthless, or conflicted, or idealistic, or generous family men or whatever. Corporation will develop corporate culture thay may have leanings (I.E. Azthechnology during the blood magic craze) and the pressure to succeed and therefore compromise will increase at the upper echelons, but that's it.

Saying Corporation X is EEEEVIIILLL is awfully simplistic. Specific people working in these corporations might be 'evil', sure, and the most agressive corp culture probably result in a majority of a-holes in the upper echelons. Typical villains, where would cyberpunk be without them? But the most grotesque ones probably disgust many of their own colleagues. Which by the way, is useful thing to remember in game when going against a megalomaniac corporate boardroom maniac... You can probably find allies against him within his own corp. Cool stories right there.

Toxics... Those guys are twisted for real IMO, like the bugs. Not necessarily 'evil', but at least 'goals-are-irreconciliable-with-humanity-because-if-they-win-you're-dead-or-a-slave'. That's the whole point; a bit of black and white in a mostly grey game.

In fact, toxics-going-against-corp story lines are cool for the potential of forcing strange bedfellows together, such an eagle shaman PC allying with a corporate suit he hates to take on a common toxic enemy.

There's also the whole Robin Hood being ficticious part. At least the one being depicted.

Robin Hood exists as much as V does.

I saw that quip coming after I had posted. Heh. Fair enough. In both regards they are written as an ideal. Real people are rarely so... lacking in depth and complexity. We want to believe someone like Robin Hood could exist, someone who was entirely lacking in self desire the he robbed people and gave the money to those less fortunate.

True! In this case, we're looking at the ideal/legend of the both of them potentially being toxic adepts - which doesn't quite cut the mustard.

Dissonant free sprite

Rascist? How does race figure into it? Maybe you mean prejudiced... and its not really, not if you define "toxic mage" to MEAN deranged, which is what the book does. You can be an extreme anti-authoriatarian mage who tries to tear down the system without being a toxic mage (in fact, there's even mentor spirits that more or less require this) but you CAN'T be a toxic mage (IE, gain the benefits given to toxic mages) without exposing yourself to mind-warping influences "man was not meant to know".

The both of them exist as much as shadowrun does.

What if my toxics only wanna bring down megacorps and the most evil/corrupt govt figures yet leave the more benevolent govt figures alone?

So say a megacorp is tendering for a project against a lesser but more benevolent corp. My toxics launch a campaign against the megacorp so that they lose the project to the lesser corp.

That fits the criteria of both toxic agendas and the robin hood mentalities.

What if, in the eyes of the group, what is defined as "making civilization crumble under its own weight so that humanity can start afresh" equates taking out the top AAA and AA megas so that smaller corps and hopefully more benevolent corps will rise up and make the world a better place?

In your eyes, your toxics will kill many innocents..

In my eyes, my toxics only kill mega wageslaves and leave the lower class alone.. Hell they even give part of the megas' loot to the poor..

That's not a toxic shaman, that's called a Shadowrunner.
Toxic shamans want to bring about chaos and disorder, not benevolence. Their beef isn't with folk being treated poorly, their beef is with the structure of civilization as a whole.
More over, they can't help it. Even if they want a benevolent corp to be in charge, they are driven by a sociopathic force to create chaos, not benevolent order.
Sociopath. As in not being able to care how people feel.

Robin Hood wanted law and order. His beef was with a totalitarian cleptocracy, not the crown as a whole. What he wanted was for all, rich and poor, to be treated equally under the law.

I don't have the space to get into Alan Moore's personal brand of crazy, but V wasn't fighting for anarchy, he was fighting against fascism. Metaphorically he was fighting Margaret Thatcher.
As should we all.

EDIT
And Mr. Moore is still waiting for you to get the name of his work right. If you don't fear toxic shamans, fear crazy, bearded British writers with an axe to grind.

It is a whole group of toxics not just one person.

Let's deal with the mentor spirits first. What if the mentor spirit is a god of change? A God whose primary interest is wiping out the evil and unfortunately powerful/influential upper hierarchies of society and giving a chance to the poor lower classes and smaller corps to take over projects previously owned by the megacorps?

For eg, Lone Star or KE is looking after security in seattle. If KE loses the contract due to sabotage by the toxics, and a just and fair security corp takes over the seattle security law enforcement contract, doesn't that fit both the havoc criteria as well as the robin hood "i am not evil" criteria?

How are the toxic mages, who is following a god who is sponsoring a change for the better, suppose to go madder and madder if they are doing good?




No it is not clear.

By doing good and removing megacorps from power so that smaller corps and the small man have a better chance at better lives, I figure the toxic mages' humanity are going to get stronger.

This is not star wars. This is shadownrun. Besides where are the rules for toxics going mad if you so strongly suggest that every toxic will go mad?





The bounty is a small matter as long as you keep the identities under wrap.

Please show the RAW which says that every toxic will definitely descend into madness.

The Robin Hood on his shoulders are only telling him to burn the megas, not burn everything.




There is such a thing as a dark avenger who upholds justice who doesn't quit and who doesn't go mad because he is doing the just thingy.

Well, my toxic shamans wanna bring benevolence by changing the structure of society... ie the AAA megacorps..

They also care how the poor and lower classes feel and do everything in their power to ensure the poor and lower classes get better lives..

See my toxic shamans has this plan to counterfeit electronics, medicines at lower costs but with the same quality and sell them cheaply to the masses.

At the same time, this plan will undercut the megas and hurt them. One stone hitting 2 birds. How is this not benevolence?

Toxic shamans can't support justice. Justice is a form of order and toxic shamans CAN NOT support order. they are driven by chaos and the need to overthrow civilization. They are not driven by a need to over throw part of civilization, but structure as a whole.
If you intend to leave a stone, any stone of civilization left standing, you aren't playing a toxic shaman.

Justice is incompatible with Chaos, thus incompatible with the toxics.

Well in the eyes of my toxics, as long as you are working for megas, you are fair game.. even your kids are fair game..

however if you are working for a up and coming corp which has better motivations, then you are safe..

as i said, robin hood, .. the dictators of SR's world are the megas and it will a blessing to the people to take them out..

You don't get to decide what a toxic shaman can want. It's spelled out pretty strait in the book you quoted what it is.
What you want to do is what used to be called "playing the game backward"
Like playing a D&D troop as a group of goblins or playing In Nomine with the demons as good guys.

If you want to play a Robin Hood with toxic powers, that's fine, but it isn't RAW and it isn't thematically correct either.
What you want to do and what the RAW says toxic shamans are just don't mesh.

EDIT
It's kind of like saying that MY automatic gun doesn't have recoil.

Your toxics may follow CHaos, but My toxics are not.

They are following Change and Justice.

They want to overthrow the megas without causing harm to the people. They are aiming to destroy the kings so that a new and better king can be crowned.

In fact, on more than one occassion, my toxics of CHange and Justice will bring down your toxics who are following Chaos and overthrow the whole structure, thus harming the people.

There IS a difference.

The RAW doesn't say that every toxic is a mass-murdering sociopath.

There is black and white and countless shades in between. The RAW states that very clearly.

I am saying MY automatic gun only has a LITTLE recoil.

Your automatic gun has PLENTY of recoil.

A Corporation, no matter how "benevolent", is structure, hierarchy and rules. Even morality (any morality, like barring yourself from using terror tactics even if they would be more effective in bringing down their target) or justice is an arbitrary rule. The purpose of the Havoc is to tear down all those falses pretenses to bring about a truly blank slate, unrestricted by anything. Think anarchists on steroid and K-10, nihilsm to the hilt.

What you propose is NOT a group of Havocs, but rather followers of the Adversary, probably leaning on the twisted side. And maybe even not.