There are 300 ha of rain forest in Chicaque Natural Park, less than 30 kilometers west of Bogota, barely below the city altitude.

Chicaque Natural Park is a cloud forest.
A cloud forest is a generally tropical or subtropical evergreen montane moist forest characterized by a persistent, frequent or seasonal low-level cloud cover, usually at the canopy level. Cloud forests often exhibit an abundance of mosses covering the ground and vegetation, in which case they are also referred to as mossy forests. Mossy forests usually develop on the saddles of mountains, where moisture introduced by settling clouds is more effectively retained.

Totally not a Jungle.

In that case, Seattle would be right in the middle of the Amazon, too.

Excuse me for daring to bring in an opinion, but the established deal with Amazonia is that they'd been magically expanding the rainforest and jungle for years due to their Locus, and even in Feral Cities' mention of Bogota it had been saying that all the highways and areas around it had been reclaimed by rainforest.

Oh right, the "magic does it" cop-out. Very original.

Seems like the whole setting since first edition been a magic does it cop-out.

Not at all. Have you even read any 1E stuff?

Yeah and the borders have bugged me ever since. It was like someone never looked at an atlas and arbitrarily decided to partition North America with no regard to geographic features. We won't even get into the water rights, etc... How did CAS lose city of San Antonio and El Paso when they have some of the largest military bases in the world?

Yes I have. Explain how the Native Americans got their independence again?

Terrorism and scary storms. It wasn't only magic. It certainly didn't involve ignoring several 3.000 meter mountains because maps are so challenging to use.

I have never seen the Ghost Dance and the magical feats leading up to it described merely as scary storms. If that could be pulled off, then I personally do not find it hard to believe that Amazonia has the magic to create forests into and beyond mountain ranges.

"Magic Does It" doesn't explain low-altitude jungle foliage existing that high. Any type of elevation restructuring that would get it into that area would completely obliterate the city.

I do not have the book yet, so I am unsure of the language use. But when they say jungle, could they mean jungle in a general term and not spefically a rainforest you find in Amazonia. Do they actually mention plants that exists in the Amazon rainforest growing there or is it just mention of trees and whatnot growing and it was assumed that was rainforest growth and not local flora being grown by magic?

Isn't that old, in relation to Bogota/Amazonia though? I'll admit, I'm not as familiar with older material specifically regarding that region of the SR world, as it was never a place players wanted to largely interact with. But I thought the whole "magic did it" cop-out for how wacky that region was (and the fact that it had rainforests at higher altitudes) was older canon that was simply carried forward for WAR! Similar to the not-so-well liked bit with the spirits and their original source writing in SoE, I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that this was simply older written information that had to be carried forward. Bad implementation of it, sure (not unlike the spirit thing), but the issue of its silliness arises long before WAR! Anybody know? Am I misremembering there?

Since '95 or so, in the Aztlan sourcebook, it's been an open secret that the Azzies (or just the Awakened world itself) have been messing with the geography. Page 114 establishes that rain forests are growing at alarming rates, 115 tells us that volcanoes and mountains have been changing altitude (one grew 350 meters in ~27 years)...lots of the same mojo that's always been suspected behind the regrowth in Tir Tairngire and several other "back to nature" places, plus a Locus is involved.

It may or may not be behind the jungles around Bogota in War!, but if nothing else there's 15 years of canon topography and vegetation doing wonky things, to keep it vaguely in-line with canon without any disturbance.

Copout? Sounds a lot better than "CGL screwed it up". Sorry if you don't like the answer I gave, but at least it was *gasp* actually backed up with a little research, including the hint that Amazonia having a Locus is responsible for the regrowth, that goes back through at least 2nd Edition. Sorry if it removes one of your complaints about the state of the game today or its writers, but as other people have said, "magic did it" is an explanation that's been used for phenomena going back to Charrete and Weisman.

SR magic used to follow rules and have precisely-defined limits. SR1 was written by aqctual pagans believing in actual magic, which is weird enough, but gave the setting's magic a pretty unique flavor and pseudoscientific touch. SR4 is written by D&D players who use magic as the universal cop-out, in contrast, because that's how D&D does it. YMMV, but I prefer the first approach over the latter.


Plants from the Amazon growing there is the entire fucking point of that war.


Not to interrupt your CGL fanbunnying, but what exactly does "regrow rainforest in the Amazon basin" and "grow basin rainforest on top of mountains" have in common?

Dude, accusing other people of "CGL fanbunnying" is the same as accusing you of continued "CGL bashing". You've made clear that you don't like CGL, their Lne Developer, and their last releases. We got that, ok?

I had no idea Rob Boyle was a D&D fanboy. Learn something new everyday, I guess.

There's SR4 and SR4, you know?

Re-reading it, it seems it's just a rumor, but the rumor is insulting enough because saying "What's wrong with our book," is basically the same as "Fix this for us, for free."

Dude! Just because I'm trying to come up with some answers does not mean I'm polishing CGL's knob! I've told you time and time again that I'm a Shadowrun fan, I don't care who's publishing it, I just want to see the damn thing continue. Excuse me for not deciding that burning down the house is the answer to fixing what's wrong with the wiring! I don't even know why I bother trying, because it seems to me lately that trying to discuss anything with you is like talking to a 9/11 Truther.

I thought the whole point of the war was Atlzan spreading south and Amazonia spreading north. Amazonia dosen't have to be growing trees for that to happen.

I understand your point, but the Great Ghost Dance has been around day one. Since massive magical rituals have a base in many different types of fantasy, including those that inspired and were inspired by D&D, I don't agree with your comments about Shadowrun magic becoming more like D&D.

The point, I think, is it's not just any old magically-grown trees that are in question, it's a specific species of tree.

There may be other factors in the war, but the specific trigger given in War for the current flare-up is that tree.




-k

AFB at the moment, but what I recall makes it sound very much like you step outside of city limits and hey! Rainforest basin!

Now, this can go both ways. There is some growth in the city, especially after Palo Verde - but that itself raises questions regarding canon. I believe that earlier editions had Bogota as the capital of an Aztlan state, back in the day.

@Critias: I can understand that magic's been messing with the geography, but 350m in under three decades is one thing, but getting something 2000m up down to the point that it can be covered in growth is another. That's a lot of shrinking and tectonic movement, enough that would flatten a city such as Bogota.

Part of me wonders if they just meant Caracas the whole time, and there was a colossal mix-up.

Well, the point is that Amazonia is angry because Aztlan is planting carniverous [sic!!] rainforest trees around Bogota and that makes Amazonia explode in rage for an undiscernible reason and send a team to blow up a research station where Aztech researchs the cure for cancer and the benign relative of this tree, Aztlan catches the Amazonians red-handed (or rather, sap-handed) and declares war.

Actually:


But in fact the facility was studying the healing properties of the Sangre del Drago trees. And Aztlan used this invasion as motive enough to declare war.
For me, it doesn't make sense because Bogotá was supposed to be already a city belonging to Aztlan, but during the Ghost Cartel crisis Aztlan used their bombing operations of Ghost Cartels farms to destroy the congress building with the congressmen inside and NO ONE cared about. I mean, unless the Ghost Cartels had plantations inside the city itself, there is no excuse for missing a farm for a building. Specially a building with your own citizens inside...

Part of the reason Amazonia decided to start doing serious work in Bogota is because of Operation Palo Verde, which involved the seeding of Sangre Del Diablo trees in wide swaths of Bogota proper; namely where Amazonia had interests or support.

The public flashpoint was the facility invasion, which was a screaming trap that could've been avoided had Amazonia not been holding the Idiot Ball.



That's what makes me wonder if the entirety of Ghost Cartels closure arc should've been directed on Caracas and not Bogota, since it's a free city, would've had a government building worth hitting (in theory) and then War! would've been in an area that made perfect sense. It's like someone got the two towns mixed up and everyone just sorta tried to roll with it.

...

You totally just made me realize I had mentally edited everything in Ghost Cartels to take place in Caracas, and not Bogota. No, seriously. I didn't even realize I had done that until you said it, and I checked my PDF. I'd say oops, but ireally, yeah. Way more sense in Caracas.

Heh. Amazing what a word change can do.

Yes, Caracas would have made much more sense for Ghost Cartel.

Checking 6WA related to Bogota seems to indicate it being a free city of sorts, but with heavy Aztlan influence to keep Amazonia at bay.

And that's the problem, when the hell that happened? They were never a free city in the first place, they became the state of Colombia of the Aztlan nation, not a buffer nation between Aztlan and Amazon.

I know in the Aztlan sourcebook, Bogata is mentioned as not being part of Aztlan. In that sourcebook, it says that Bogata is "officially" within Amazonia, but the shadowtalk suggests its more disputed territory.

Probably what served as a basis for the red area on the map in 6WA.

Really? I just got the Aztlan book yesterday, I'm gonna take a look at this.
Because, in this case, if it was part of Amazonia, then Amazonia would have all the motives to declare war against Aztlan in the first place instead of waiting for a whole year.
And if Bogotá is a no-man's land, I guess they could always ask for CC and UN protection, and I'm pretty sure the CC would love to have another territory controled by them.

You will find the info on page 106.

To get things back on topic, does anyone know of any more ways to get the word out that War! is a crappy product, not worth buying? You can't write a review on DriveThruRpg.com without first buying from them, so that avenue is out. I've never bought from Amazon, so I don't know if they have the same policy, or if it's even available there yet.

War! isn't listed on Amazon yet but you can post reviews when it is without purchasing it. You do have to have an Amazon account to do so. But War! isn't worth a media blitz over. Word of mouth is going to kill this thing and further damage CGL's credibility. Energy is better spent campaigning Topps to pull the license.

More accurately getting Topps to tell CGL to "shape up or ship out."

I'd rather we not migrate to a 5th edition and instead have good quality material for 4th.
But if we can't have the latter, the former is looking pretty nice.

I feel obliged to point out that when the license migrated from FanPro to CGL, we didn't have a new edition. So, SR5 may or may not happen.

True. It's not impossible, it is just highly unlikely.

I will bet dollars to donuts that SR5 will happen. I don't know when but given the history of this game and the time between editions, it's past due. Which means it will probably happen sooner than we think. And I'd rather that not be on CGL's watch.

Or from FASA to FanPro, for that matter.

Well FanPro did do SR4. But not right away.

2012

Hough!
Medicineman

Finally finnished reading my hard copy of WAR! this weekend. I did not want to comment on it till I read the whole thing.

My opinion is that it is a mediocre book (on a scale of 1 to 10 it would be a flat 5:

The bad stuff:

1. War! was too focused on Bogota. Almost 2/3rds of the book related to it. It should not have been marketed as a descriptor of war in the 6th world as it bare even touches other conflicts.
The expectation of this boook was that it would be an update to fields of fire. It was not. A small primer on unit tactics and militaries of the world is missing. You could have stopped at around page 50 on Bogota and I think most readers would have gotten enough flavor to run a game there. The rest of the pages could have easily been used up describing various military/merc outfits. We still don't a have a cannon OOB for UCAS army, not even at the platoon level nor did it go into any great detail on Desert Wars.

2. Typos: Also was spelled Laos. The copy editor should not rely on spell check. Other minor mistakes were also present. This made the book look sloppy.

3. The gear section:Thor shots?? Really?? If I nead a thor shot as a GM, then the players are dead. If the PC's ever gain access to one and use it....yeah...as a GM the players are going to be dead dead. The same for nukes too. The weave armor was also an unwelcome addition (there is already too much armor munchkinism in the game). High power chambering is also not needed.

4. The spell slow is too vague in how it works. The grenade spell is somewhat redundant.

5. As to the concept-- I think source/fluff and gear/crunch should be in seperate books. They do not compliment each other very well.


The good stuff:
1. Not withstanding the over emphasis (I got the picture at around page 50), Bogota gave a good feel for a low intensity conflict in the 6th world.

2. Battle rifles are a nice addition, as were the nanofax AK-147's. Battle rifles fill a niche between assault rifles and sporting ones. The additional gear-some vehicles and drones were also done pretty well. The addition of programs with ratings above 7 is much needed as well.

3. Some of the advice for non-wargamers running a military encounter could be useful to non-wargamers as were the morale rules, and rules for multiple grenades going off.


To summarize, the book didn't do what it set out to accomplish, however it does have enough interesting tidbits. Is it worth the money? IMHO-Only if you are interested in Bogota and want the stats for more guns, vehicles and other crunch for gear. I don't think the gear by itself is worth it.

But I really like my gear...

And I hate not being able to complain about it because I haven't bought/read it.

I agree completely. But I also don't think Hardy and crew have the chops to pull off what Rob and everyone did for SR 4. More likely we'll get an SR3 style "update", some clarifications that I hope are really clarifications, and a reason for them to print new source books.

SR4 re-wrote the game's core engine. And, for the most part, it works very well. The engine begins to seize up a bit in the post-Boyle & Co. secondary rules sets but that's (mostly) due to bad technical writing rather than bad math. Applied common sense can overcome most RAW-scripted generalities that induce arguments.

However the glaring exception are the Matrix rules which were only exacerbated by Unwired. Given this game's rocky history with deckers/hackers that's not surprising.

A good development team would treat SR5 as an opportunity for a serious Matrix rules patch, tweak a few minor balance issues, and maybe combine some Firearms skills and break up Artisan into more specific skills. Leave everything else alone and let players port over their SR4 supplements. But if War! is any kind of example of what's to come... *sigh*