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Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Grinder
Got the PDF today. The table of contents is still a step behind when compared to Adam's work. Why's every sub-chapter of "Pirate Media" bolded? Is it me or is the font of the intro fiction to "The Music Scene" in a different size then the other intro fictions?
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 8 2011, 01:14 PM) *
We have street date sign! Attitude will hit the streets on April 27th!

Jason H.


Looking forward to it. *puts money aside now*
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Grinder @ Apr 8 2011, 03:31 PM) *
Got the PDF today. The table of contents is still a step behind when compared to Adam's work. Why's every sub-chapter of "Pirate Media" bolded? Is it me or is the font of the intro fiction to "The Music Scene" in a different size then the other intro fictions?


It's a level-of-header thing (see also "The Right Crowd" chapter). The Pirate Media chapter doesn't use the lower-level headings that would show up as non bold.

The font of The Music Scene might need to have been adjusted to keep it to one page.

Jason H.
Blade
In case anyone cares about it, here is the next part of my review, about chapter 5 (The Music Scene) and 6 (The Trideo Scene)

- The Music Scene : The part about the instruments is good. It brings back elements from the Sprawl Survival Guide and doesn't forget the music making software. The part about the business isn't too bad but it put the emphasis on the stage and doesn't really detail the album part. The part about the bands is good but maybe a bit too long (the wordcount might have been better used elsewhere). It's good to have up to date information on old bands as well as new names, though.
It's lacking information about the Idorus and the Japanese influence that was there in the 2050s and 2060s is nearly invisible in that chapter, even though half the bands detailed have been active back then. There are a lot of ideas for using the music scene in your games, but having them summed up in a subsection (as it has been done in the Trideo chapter) would have been neat.

- The Trideo Scene : The organisation of this chapter is great and I think the Music Scene could have used the same. There are many elements that can be used in games and that's fine too. I'd have two complaints, though: first it doesn't mention any known names such as Neil the Ork Barbarian, Karl Kombat Mage or Suki Red Flower. After a Music Scene chapter that mentionned Maria Mercurial and Concrete Dreams, it's a bit surprising and disappointing. But that's not very important. My biggest complaint would be that this chapter lacks originiality and boldness. When I think about (post)-Cyberpunk medias, I think extreme shows. I think Videodrome. But what we're shown here is today's movies industry with a bit of magic and tech. There's nothing about crazy stingers ready to torture people to get to "the Truth", there's nothing about violent shows and blood sports... Oh and some information about the what/why/how of Simsense theater (as introduced in the introduction fiction) would have been nice too.
hobgoblin
i suspect that the blood sports have been toned down now that one is a human lifetime into the awakening.
Blade
- The BTL Scene: I'm confused. First, I don't understand where the Simsense went. There are some things about Simsense in the Trideo chapter (though it's always more about classic movies than Simsense) and there are things in the BTL chapter that seem closer to Simsense than to BTL, as if the writer himself didn't know the difference between the two. There are also a lot of space spent in describing physical places where you can get BTL, right after explaining that most of the time BTL is downloaded from your home. And the description of the places doesn't put much emphasis on the BTL side: in some cases it's just a description of a place (that should have been in a location book) which ends by "and you can get BTL there." So, lost wordcount on things that have little to do with the chapter. There's a huge emphasis on fantasy chips (and mostly porn/snuff), moodchips are mostly mentionned for the "happy" emotions (nothing about rage chips/berserker chips) and there's absolutely nothing about personafixes (the most interesting IMHO). It's written by Turbo-Bunny who's supposed to be a former BTL-addict but it doesn't show and when you read the Jackpointer comments it feels like everyone there does BTL. There aren't many things that can be used in game... A bad chapter.

- Playing Ball: The chapter about sports. It only covers team sports, but it's quite interesting. The tone is good, it's full of elements that you can use in your games. It could have gone a bit further (covering other sports, talking about the Olympics and so on) but there's no big lack and the space has been used well.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 21 2011, 03:22 AM) *
Playing Ball: The chapter about sports. It only covers team sports, but it's quite interesting. The tone is good, it's full of elements that you can use in your games. It could have gone a bit further (covering other sports, talking about the Olympics and so on) but there's no big lack and the space has been used well.


And yet there are no actual team listings - just a few highlighted franchises. What's up with that? A copy-pasta of the data from Shadowbeat wouldn't have hurt anything.

QUOTE
There are some things about Simsense in the Trideo chapter (though it's always more about classic movies than Simsense) and there are things in the BTL chapter that seem closer to Simsense than to BTL, as if the writer himself didn't know the difference between the two.

Check out Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime. In one space she says he is a Vory mule; in another, she says he isn't. *sigh* Attitude is full of these inconsistencies.

Pages 58-59 go into detail about various pieces of music equipment but nowhere in the book are there actual rules or even statistics that players or GMs could use. All the "attitude clothing options" should have been included in Arsenal.
Blade
Team listings would have been nice, it's true, especially since it wouldn't have taken too much space.

I've seen Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime but such inconsistencies can easily be explained (I'm sure you can find a post in this forums where I support a point of view and another one where I support the opposite, or where I state different hypothesis including the one I was refusing in that other post) and it doesn't matter much to me.

I don't need rules for playing instruments just like I don't need rules for cooking or throwing a party. If it was possible to have something like Cyberpunk's Rockerboy that could (and would) attract a whole crowd and use it to help him, rules would have been needed. If it's just about playing in a band between runs I don't think we need more than what we already have. I guess prices for the instruments would have been nice, but rules I can do without.

I haven't read the clothing chapter yet but I do agree it would have been nice to have it in Arsenal.

JM Hardy
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Apr 21 2011, 07:41 AM) *
<snip>
Check out Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime. In one space she says he is a Vory mule; in another, she says he isn't. *sigh* Attitude is full of these inconsistencies.

<snip>


In her bio sketch of CrimeTime in "The Right Crowd" section, Red Anya says the following: "An additional question when it comes to CrimeTime is just what he’s going to do with his Vory connection.  The fact that he has one isn’t disputed (he’s promoted by Hez Music, which is owned by two guys with strong Vory ties)—it’s the nature of the connection that people debate." She then goes on to present two narratives, one saying he's just a poser, the other saying he does some of the Vory's dirty work. This section is more journalistic in nature; at no point in this piece does she say which side she believes. That's the nature of sketches like this--you present different sides of the story, and you sublimate your own opinions. In "The Music Scene" chapter, she's not trying to present all sides--she's commenting, so she just gives her opinion on what the real truth is. Given that she never presented an opinion of her own in the bio sketch, there's no inconsistency.

Note that I snipped the other comments above not because I don't think they're important, but because they're more opinion-based, and those are the sort of comments I don't like to argue much about on forums. I'm not going to try to talk people out of their opinions on a book. The above seemed more like a factual matter, so I thought I'd clear it up.

Jason H.
CanRay
The only way to get to the truth of the situation is to sit CrimeTime down and try to drink the truth out of him.

And, from rumors I've heard, the guy could drink Ozzy under the table.
Warlordtheft
Any news one the release date for the hard copy?
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 21 2011, 08:58 AM) *
Any news one the release date for the hard copy?


Yep! Next week! April 27th is the day!

Jason H.
Mäx
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Apr 21 2011, 03:41 PM) *
All the "attitude clothing options" should have been included in Arsenal.

Doesn't make whole lot of sense to say that gear in a new book should have been included in an other book thats over 3 years old.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 21 2011, 11:12 AM) *
Doesn't make whole lot of sense to say that gear in a new book should have been included in an other book thats over 3 years old.

It also doesn't make a lot of sense to have a book about the music and entertainment scene not have actual music/trid recording gear listings but there you go. Anyway, as my time machine is still in the shop, I was speaking in hyperbole. If you're going to publish military tech in a PDF supplement rather than the actual war gear book it probably wouldn't be unreasonable to have a PDF supplement that spins off of Arsenal... 30 Rides & 30 Sets of Clothes or whatever.

QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 21 2011, 08:51 AM) *
I've seen Red Anya's remarks on CrimeTime but such inconsistencies can easily be explained (I'm sure you can find a post in this forums where I support a point of view and another one where I support the opposite, or where I state different hypothesis including the one I was refusing in that other post) and it doesn't matter much to me.


Real life is one thing. We as people are inconsistent or deliberately contradictory. But role playing game books are first and foremost technical writing. First person "conversational" or third person tone, it doesn't matter. It's still technical writing using the framework of a fictional universe. As a gamer I expect consistency within a piece of work even if people in real life are not. Even if what's being stated is deliberately untrue. Taking the "ha ha, I know I said 'x' two pages ago but just kidding, aren't I like a real person?" approach doesn't work. Maybe if you're a very accomplished professional writer but even then I don't see it often.

QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 21 2011, 08:51 AM) *
I don't need rules for playing instruments just like I don't need rules for cooking or throwing a party. If it was possible to have something like Cyberpunk's Rockerboy that could (and would) attract a whole crowd and use it to help him, rules would have been needed. If it's just about playing in a band between runs I don't think we need more than what we already have. I guess prices for the instruments would have been nice, but rules I can do without.


I don't know if you played 1st edition SR but Shadowbeat (seriously, if you don't have that book see if you can find a reasonably priced copy on eBay or in a used bookstore) dedicated six solid pages of light rules about creating a band, composing music, selling an album, cashing in, et cetera. I won't say they're great rules, (Impact Tests were a little weird) but they were something that could provide more depth to a game. First edition was also in a war to "out-cyberpunk" Cyberpunk and 2300AD; there was a "Rocker" archetype presented as a pre-made character.

There are a lot of people on Dumpshock who play characters that daylight as musicians. In game, that's Kat O'Nine Tails' whole gig, rocker as runner, so it's not without precedence in 4th ed. If you wouldn't want to use those kinds of rules, that's cool. But I would because I think the glitz and glamor make for an interesting part of the SR world and could benefit with some defined crunch.

Shadowbeat also included a solid 16 pages to news gathering rules, from Tests to determine if your PC captured an image with his camera correctly to variables that determined the success of an interview. Again, not something you need to run a game but they were interesting in that it viewed SR at a different angle.
Pepsi Jedi
I have to agree. I don't need valuable page count going into rules for music checks. Like Blade said. I don't need rules for playing instruments just like I don't need rules for cooking. Or Rules for sitting on a bus. Much less 22 pages on such things. It's very very very very 'nitch'. And while it can be argued that much of Shadowrun is, you're talking what, 1 char in 1000? More? And even that one char isn't going to be sitting at the table all that often going "ok I'm going to need the rules on "RAISIN" THE ROOF! and ROCKIN' THIS MOTHER FRAKER!! YEAAAAAH" Before we start.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Besides, you could cover all that with the "Tools" Category if you wanted to do so.
Me, I just whip out Shadowbeat and convert the prices and tech. Did not take all that long.
Hell, you could even take a shot at a somewhat coherent set of rules to simulate the Impact tests and such. Though I have not bothered with that as of yet. smile.gif

I really need to get Attitude. smokin.gif
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 21 2011, 01:03 PM) *
And even that one char isn't going to be sitting at the table all that often going "ok I'm going to need the rules on "RAISIN" THE ROOF! and ROCKIN' THIS MOTHER FRAKER!! YEAAAAAH" Before we start.

Says you. I'd do it all the time because I'm totally metal. devil.gif

Keep in mind that SR1 spread its rules across pages and pages. The higher word-count-per-page of SR4 could have easily accommodated rockn'-n-rappin' rules if the really bad prose and foot fetishism were axed.

Sigh. I don't even know what anyone would actually do with Attitude. There's nothing in there that I could use to run a campaign based on "attitude" themes. Nothing's perfect but our two most recent dead tree releases have really dropped in quality or even use-ability. Kind of sad that I'm referencing MilSpecTech and Parazoology more than War! and Attitude.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2011, 01:21 PM) *
Hell, you could even take a shot at a somewhat coherent set of rules to simulate the Impact tests and such. Though I have not bothered with that as of yet. smile.gif

I did. I kludged the rules from Shadowbeat into the 4th ed. engine for an adventure I ran. It worked okay and I don't consider myself to be a game developer by any means. Makes me wonder why the actual developers couldn't be bothered.
Mäx
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Apr 21 2011, 11:05 PM) *
Sigh. I don't even know what anyone would actually do with Attitude. There's nothing in there that I could use to run a campaign based on "attitude" themes. Nothing's perfect but our two most recent dead tree releases have really dropped in quality or even use-ability. Kind of sad that I'm referencing MilSpecTech and Parazoology more than War! and Attitude.

Intresting, i have actually added gear from both WAR and Attitude to one of my character builds, but not from millspectech or this old drone, yet, i fully expect to use stuff from both of those once i get myself to finish up my various rigger builds.
ravensmuse
*sigh* Does this mean Attitude 2.0? Because I'm seriously be behind that.

I could write and write this reply over and over again, but I'll just put it simply thus: there was a lot of potential here, and it sounds like they went by the book. And that's really sad. There are a lot of options that could have been presented - filling out fluff, updating us on some old classics, presenting new and optional campaigns.

Instead it sounds like we got yet another rushed out book to make it look like everything is fine at CGL. Really disappointing.
Mäx
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 22 2011, 03:54 AM) *
filling out fluff, updating us on some old classics, presenting new and optional campaigns.

And here i was thinking they did just that wobble.gif
Blade
And in today's review episode:

- Pirate Media: It's not as much about outlaw medias (pirate trid broadcast) as about "pirating" (making illegal copies) of medias. There's a bit of the former, but it's mixed with the illegal copy angle, making it a bit confusing at times. It starts with some great concept: copyright holders (corps) are the one making copyright laws (at least on their turf). The problem is that I don't know if the writer was afraid of going all the way with this idea (it would, after all, have a big impact on the Shadowrun world by adding a new element that was unheard of) or if he got confused, or if it's just bad writing, but it keeps the concept to vague to really get anywhere with it. And then it falls back into a problem that was already in the Sprawl Survival Guide: taking today's piracy situation and putting it in Shadowrun's timeline with nearly no change.
I think that 80s cyberpunk had a much clearer and more interesting vision of copyright, information control and piracy in the future.

- Celebrity Time: The story of a runner who became famous. A pretty interesting chapter, with some good elements. I like how the Jackpoint comments help pick out the important points. I think it would have been nice to close the chapter on a Jackpoint debate about the content of the story on the whole, though. Also it does feel a bit like a 2011 situation set in 2070. I guess there should be new aspects of celebrity in 2070 (having people who look like you or even think/act like you thanks to personafix for example) but what's shown here isn't very different from today.

I still have a few chapters left, but right now I don't think Attitude is a bad book the way War! was. It's not a great book. I'm waiting for the last chapters to decide if it's an ok good or a good book. Right now I think the biggest problems with this book are:
- Too much transposition of 2011 in 2070. It feels like 2011 with added AR and magic in a lot of places. I can understand that some people don't think that Shadowrun doesn't need to stay in the cyberpunk genre. But this isn't even post-cyberpunk. It's today's world with AR, implants and magic.
- Not enough boldness. This is tied to the previous point, I guess. There's nothing really new, not much that makes you go "I want that !" or "I love that!". I feel like the Sprawl Survival Guide or even the daily life chapter of SR4 introduced more interesting and out of the ordinary daily life elements. "This is a famous rock band whose members are angry at each other.", "It's the same rugby but with trolls and augmented players", "This is a new movie about two people in love with explosions.", "If you want free clothes, search the thrash of the thrift store."... Come on! Give me something original! Where are the bands whose concerts ended in a 3 days long riot or the destruction of a skyscraper? Where are the extreme tv-shows where armed people live in the same loft without knowing who the ghoul is? Where is the memetic manipulation? Where, in a book called Attitude, are the crazy sub-cultures and whacky technotribes?
Maybe there are some surprises left in the chapters I haven't read but so far Attitude isn't bad. It's just dull.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 22 2011, 04:23 AM) *
And here i was thinking they did just that wobble.gif

I'll admit that I haven't read the book, but that's as much to what I've heard on here as it is my stance on CGL products.

I could be surprised! Who knows. We'll see.
Wesley Street
In CGL's defense (shocking, I know but I want to play fair) Attitude doesn't seem rushed. It's not the orgy of typos, geographic inaccuracies and other easily fixed mistakes that War! was. Bull said they've implemented some changes to prevent that and it's beginning to show. But unlike Attitude, War! has rules (badly written, but they're there) that you can use for a military campaign.

Attitude was solicited as, and attempted to be, the child of Shadowbeat and Sprawl Survival Guide. However, SB and SSG, while mostly fluff, did include usable rules and gear listings that really fleshed out the day-to-day life of the game world. And not just the rock rules that I was harping on earlier.

Like I mentioned above, I don't know what I would actually use Attitude for. The fluff isn't interesting enough or written well enough to just sit down and read straight through, the stuff that should go into details doesn't (newer major bands, complete league listings, etc.), and what does go into detail is kind of weird (socks?). I can pull stuff from the clothes listings but there's nothing in this book that would let me run an "attitude-y" campaign. Attitude went the way of 10 Jackpointers (yes, I'm dogging on something I helped write [see, I'm totally fair! nyahnyah.gif]). There was fluff with the promise of crunch that was never delivered.

QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 22 2011, 04:33 AM) *
Pirate Media: It's not as much about outlaw medias (pirate trid broadcast) as about "pirating" (making illegal copies) of medias. There's a bit of the former, but it's mixed with the illegal copy angle, making it a bit confusing at times. It starts with some great concept: copyright holders (corps) are the one making copyright laws (at least on their turf). The problem is that I don't know if the writer was afraid of going all the way with this idea (it would, after all, have a big impact on the Shadowrun world by adding a new element that was unheard of) or if he got confused, or if it's just bad writing, but it keeps the concept to vague to really get anywhere with it. And then it falls back into a problem that was already in the Sprawl Survival Guide: taking today's piracy situation and putting it in Shadowrun's timeline with nearly no change.

As someone with a vested interest in how copyright, intellectual property and public domain actually works, this section really chapped me. You know how the military guys and wannabe military guys on this board get mad about weapon inaccuracies? This is the same for me. The writer posited that the works of Leo Tolstoy (whose works were released to the public domain in the 1880s), could somehow be released in a legal and controlled fashion. When works are released to the public domain there is literally nothing to control. It's out there! What the writer was hinting at is that the major publishing houses like Horizon (we gotta make 'em bad somehow!) literally burned every copy of War & Peace in existence, somehow managed to erase copies from every computer server, and declared, "this is ours, now, and you can't have it without paying!". Not only is that dumb and implausible, it's a complete shift and break from Shadowrun canon. I think I would have heard about this at some point in this game's 20+ year history.
Blade
Nothing prevents a government from taking back the works from public domain on its soil. Sure, it won't prevent books that are already out to exist and be sold, but it would impact new sales of the books (especially during the books to ebooks/audiobooks/simplebooks/movie transition).
But yeah, the way it was put forward is awkward. It either goes too far (using Tolstoy instead of a not public-domain writer) or not far enough (giving that example without explaining the whole situation behind it).
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 22 2011, 08:58 AM) *
Nothing prevents a government from taking back the works from public domain on its soil. Sure, it won't prevent books that are already out to exist and be sold, but it would impact new sales of the books (especially during the books to ebooks/audiobooks/simplebooks/movie transition).

Given the insane overlapping legalities of mega-corporate extraterritoriality and fractured civilian governments that would be an amazing trick to pull off and explain without some serious handwavium and ignoring established canon.

Not using Tolstoy and Kerouac (whose estate has its own legal tie-ups in terms of ownership) would have partly avoided this. But outlawing a book because it's bundled into a package that violates IP would be like outlawing a Prince Paul album that he authorized for free release to Napster in the 1990s. The author of the womanhood manifesto clearly gave consent to the "pirate publisher" (which is sort of a nonsensical term for what was described; the pirate wasn't publishing anything but merely serving as an electronic distribution channel for pre-existing works).
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 22 2011, 11:33 AM) *
And in today's review episode:

- Pirate Media: It's not as much about outlaw medias (pirate trid broadcast) as about "pirating" (making illegal copies) of medias. There's a bit of the former, but it's mixed with the illegal copy angle, making it a bit confusing at times. It starts with some great concept: copyright holders (corps) are the one making copyright laws (at least on their turf). The problem is that I don't know if the writer was afraid of going all the way with this idea (it would, after all, have a big impact on the Shadowrun world by adding a new element that was unheard of) or if he got confused, or if it's just bad writing, but it keeps the concept to vague to really get anywhere with it. And then it falls back into a problem that was already in the Sprawl Survival Guide: taking today's piracy situation and putting it in Shadowrun's timeline with nearly no change.
I think that 80s cyberpunk had a much clearer and more interesting vision of copyright, information control and piracy in the future.

At that time the widespread effects of the net on copying was mostly unknown (one could see traces of it in BBS copying, but that still involved a fair bit of manual labor in terms of floppy swapping and command entry). As such it was much simpler to take the existent system and project it forward (pocket/bag of floppies/tapes/cartridges), just add VR and BTL on top.
Blade
QUOTE ("Wesley Street)
Given the insane overlapping legalities of mega-corporate extraterritoriality and fractured civilian governments that would be an amazing trick to pull off and explain without some serious handwavium and ignoring established canon.

As far as I know, canon has never been very far in copyright law and public domain. IIRC there was a few things about patents in one of the NAG, but I don't remember the details (just that the Neo-A are against them).
It's true that the extraterritoriality would cause some problems if the laws are vastly different everywhere and at the same time it might be difficult for everyone to agree on a common copyright law. That's the kind of details I'd have like to have in that chapter.

QUOTE ("Wesley Street)
But outlawing a book because it's bundled into a package that violates IP would be like outlawing a Prince Paul album that he authorized for free release to Napster in the 1990s. The author of the womanhood manifesto clearly gave consent to the "pirate publisher" (which is sort of a nonsensical term for what was described; the pirate wasn't publishing anything but merely serving as an electronic distribution channel for pre-existing works).

I'm pretty sure you could consider that the book, due to its publication model, is tied to to an illegal business and outlaw it on that basis, using some laws similar to recent anti-terrorist/anti-internet laws. But I agree it wouldn't be a clean procedure.
But I guess that was the intent of the writer: to show the power of the lobby and the way it can use the law (since the lobby and the law are often the same) to destroy you if it wants too. But once again, it'd have been better if it has been more clearly explained.
Blade
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 22 2011, 03:41 PM) *
At that time the widespread effects of the net on copying was mostly unknown (one could see traces of it in BBS copying, but that still involved a fair bit of manual labor in terms of floppy swapping and command entry). As such it was much simpler to take the existent system and project it forward (pocket/bag of floppies/tapes/cartridges), just add VR and BTL on top.


At that time, information was already a big theme in Cyberpunk. In Cyberpunk universes, corporation have money, they have resources (or what's left of them), they have people and the system keeps feeding them with fresh supplies of this. What they have to hunt for is the information. They have some, through the Matrix, but they don't have all they need. That's what they fight over, that's what can bring them down... In Cyberpunk, information is everything.

In classic Cyberpunk, information isn't free. The Matrix isn't free. It's closer to the French Minitel or old BBS systems where you need to know the name/number of the service you're calling and you need to call (and pay) for it. It's far from the Internet we know, but it's the Internet that we'd have gotten if it had been created by companies rather than universities and the military. And that's the Internet that a lot of companies would like to aim for now (to the point that in France some people say that the governement and companies actually want Internet to become the "Minitel 2.0"). It's much more natural for companies to want Internet to be that way, and that's why, to me, the Matrix should be closer to that model since it was created by corps for corps after the Crash.

So yes, at that time, they were also taking what was existing and applying it to the future. Except that this old vision fit the dystopic cyberpunk future much better than today's Internet and should have been kept.
hobgoblin
i speculate that trademark, patent and copyright (the parts that make up "intellectual property") is upheld by the corporate court (or else there would be little need for runners), and used as legal MAD between the AAAs and a barrier of entry for the upstarts.

Details like "defend it or loose it" (trademark) and limited durations (patent, copyright) have probably been thrown out the window (even today, anything published since maybe ww1 have not passed into public domain thanks to continual copyright extension).

open source likely operates in a legal gray area as corporations can have such licensing declared null and void on their turf, while secretly incorporating stuff from such efforts into their own products. And maybe setting traps in firmware and hardware against those projects via secret handshakes between hardware and software (A RL examples would be a Foxconn motherboard that provided junk data to any OS that did not ID itself as Windows). And pirated goods are a true nono (worked against maybe by first pushing a new handshake patch to the software, and then a firmware update). Both cases illustrated by the continual drop of rating on such projects.

This then comboed with corp crip and massive marketing about the quality of brand name products vs the knock-offs.

Rival corps may be trying to run open source or piracy efforts against their competitors, tho doing so may risk backfiring as someone could turn those efforts against the corps own products.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 22 2011, 04:07 PM) *
So yes, at that time, they were also taking what was existing and applying it to the future. Except that this old vision fit the dystopic cyberpunk future much better than today's Internet and should have been kept.

And risk having the SR world seem eternally dated. Todays world is dystopic in different ways. Rampant (dis)information overload, ubiquitous tracking (all legally bought software in SR comes with a option that phones home, just like recent discoveries about Android and Iphone os). So you go from being a non-name to having multiple names, all aliases used so long, and replaced so often, you have forgotten your birth name.

One may be liberating "the truth" from some corporate database, but maybe the only outlet for it is pirate channels or rival corporations looking for a way to tarnish the competitions reputation and credibility. Its like the scene in MIB where they use craziest tabloid as a reliable information source.
longbowrocks
Pretty good book. The main advantage is that people looking for gear and rules are aware of the relative lack in this book, so they don't buy it. That way, the gear contained is a bit more obscure, making it more useful when trying to hide your character's capabilities.
ravensmuse
So I got a chance to look it over this weekend.

Remember when you were in high school, and you groaned when the assignment came up in English class where you had to write a research report and have a thesis statement and back it up and follow the MLA guidelines and what have you? That's what this book reminds me of. Not because it's clinical and written with a bored tone of voice - there are real moments of great writing that I'll get into in a minute - no, I'm drawing the comparison because it has the same problem that any MLA format research paper will have if the student doesn't give a shit - there's a lack of focus, and there's no support to the thesis that person chose to use.

What is Attitude's thesis? Because there are a lot of them, spread about the book. Is it, as the cover and first page of actual writing suggests, about how the woman on the cover isn't a shadowrunner, and what the differences are and where there are parallels? Or is it about Sixth World culture? Or is it about the real life of the shadowrunner, y'know, the one that's constantly broke and has to kick in doors in order to survive? Is it about faces? Is it about the media and it's destructive tendencies?

All of the above could have been an interesting book, but what we got was a classic mish-mash of ideas that aren't coherent, focused, and hell, useful.

Now, before I get authors all jumping on my ass about this, the writing in the book was fine, elevated to great in some cases. I specifically want to call out the fact that I was rolling throughout most of Slamm-0!'s chapter on sports, not only because the man is a sports fan after my own heart, but the sheer annoyance you see written in Netcat's postings reminded me of so many conversations I've had with my wife with friends present. Also, whomever wrote that chapter is obviously a Sox fan, because the Yankees are stuck in a losing streak and the Sox get a callbox? Yeah. Boston fan. Though you should have mentioned that we can get as angry as any soccer hooligan when the Yanks are in town smile.gif

But what is this book about? The book title, cover, and first page all make the statement that this is a book about fighting the perceived against the real. But the rest of the book then goes off to waka-waka land talking about other things. A whole chapter is devoted to a character with a sledge hammer that could have been condensed down into a short article in the first chapter. We get Yet Another Diatribe about how to live as a shadowrunner on the street - bored with this, and have been for forever - and some strange story about a kid learning to be a runner and ending with his finger getting chopped off by a trapped garbage disposal. Huh? What does any of this have to do with public perception of runners, and what the truth really is (no, please, jump through some hoops and explain this to me, I'd love to hear it).

I also want to mention that there's also a mean tone shot throughout the book, where it's totally okay to talk about killing people for realz and even glorifying getting a woman to throw herself in front of a train. I mean, uh, I like my Shadowrun dark enough, thank you, but Fastjack and crew have always drawn a line on making it coolz to be an honest killer, y'know?

Another thing I want to call out - Pirate Media is useless. It's a great discussion of stuff going on, but it's useless and half-written. Someone word for word transcribed either Wil Wheaton or some other tech writer's bit about going through the regular channels of getting DRM junk off of stuff you've bought, but that's it. Wouldn't it have been great to say, "yeah, there are hacking groups out there doing this very same thing. There's a regular arms war going on between the corps and pirates, and it's got some opportunities for you if you're a good hacker." I guess it ties in with the discussion of privateering a few pages beforehand, but the connection is tenuous at best! I follow the real life discussion myself, and it's a very interesting thing to watch - I mean, hands up if you know what I mean when I say Geohot vs. Sony - so to see it mentioned and then dropped because "well, we're done here," is very frustrating!

I will say that I skipped around a bit because honestly, the book is just a schizophrenic mess. It could have been a great Sixth World culture book - the elements are there. It could have been a great book for Faces - the elements are there. It could have even been a good follow up to Sprawl Guide. The elements are there. But they're not, and that sucks.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
I mean, hands up if you know what I mean when I say Geohot vs. Sony

*waves*
Bigity
I do, but only because of Penny Arcade forums.
longbowrocks
I liked the halo system idea.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 25 2011, 01:09 PM) *
there's a lack of focus

[...]

All of the above could have been an interesting book, but what we got was a classic mish-mash of ideas that aren't coherent, focused, and hell, useful.


Reality tends to be that way. Especially when you're dealing with culture. What would an American contemporary culture guide look like? If it was to be comprehensive, it certainly wouldn't be coherent or focused, simply because the subject matter is extremely fragmented.

CanRay
It certainly doesn't help that a good part of culture sometimes involves drugs, and well, the only way to properly report on them is to experiment with them and... nyahnyah.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 25 2011, 02:09 PM) *
All of the above could have been an interesting book, but what we got was a classic mish-mash of ideas that aren't coherent, focused, and hell, useful.

I can agree about the first 2, but really really have to disagree with that last one.
I have all ready gotten use out of the gear chapter and the rest of the book has all kind of nice stuff to add to different characters backgrounds.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Apr 29 2011, 01:57 AM) *
Reality tends to be that way. Especially when you're dealing with culture. What would an American contemporary culture guide look like? If it was to be comprehensive, it certainly wouldn't be coherent or focused, simply because the subject matter is extremely fragmented.

Shadowbeat. SOTA: 63 / 64. Those are books on Sixth World culture, and they managed to cover the width and breadth without losing focus and keeping things coherent.

There are clearly two different books at play here; one is trying to be a follow up to Sprawl Guide and Guide to Real Life; personally, this is the section that felt like it was purposely tacked on and makes the book feel unfocused. The other is trying to update Shadowbeat, and it ranges from good and useful to, "really?". Either book I would probably pick up (if I was buying CGL products, blah blah blah), the latter more than the former, when I found it for a cheaper price. Because there's enough in the latter section of the book I dug.

QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 29 2011, 04:09 AM) *
I can agree about the first 2, but really really have to disagree with that last one.
I have all ready gotten use out of the gear chapter and the rest of the book has all kind of nice stuff to add to different characters backgrounds.

I actually agree with you there. I was solely disappointed with the music section because it needed a good clean up edit really bad, and I was disappointed that gear was one small section in the back. However, sports, the fashionista guide (really!), and other sections I can't recall because g'damn it, it's seven am and my wife is up watching the Royal Wedding were good enough for me to think to pull stuff from.

So I agree with you on that.
Blade
Nearly finished!

Be your own boss: A chapter about how to start your own business. It doesn't fit in my vision of Shadowrun so I don't really care about it. Once again, most of it could have been taken out of a website/leaflet about starting your own business. It's all very generic, it could be written in 2011 with little to no changes and there are only a few aspects that touch the Shadow part. Nothing about Attitude there either. It's hopefully short.

Driving off the Edge: I don't get it. It's both absurd and useless. Translated into game terms it'd be something like: "if you've got lots of Edge, use it to do crazy stuff" but in fluff it's weird, and I don't see how anything in this chapter can have an impact on any game. Another waste of space. Hopefully short too.

The Right Crowd: Detailed writeups about a few NPC in the show business. It's decent, for those interested in such things.
Blade
And the last part, the gear chapter.

It's actually the best chapter of the book and it's great.
I don't mind the mix of IC and OOC elements (better than to have to look somewhere for the IC description and ten pages later for the OOC text), the texts are interesting, the gear is fun and/or useful enough to get used by players and not too much "power creep" (though I'm pretty sure Dumpshock can find holes to turn any of that gear into a broken abomination). It's just too bad that it covers so few different styles, especially since there are so many chapters that waste wordcount.

This is one of the few times when I found myself thinking "I want (this/to play with this/to do something with this)" in this book. I did it a lot in that chapter, and only one or two times in the rest of the book.

So to sum up my impressions about the book: it's not a very good book, but it's reassuring. It's not War! bad and it definitely shows potential in some places. One can hope that as the writers get more confidence and get more daring, the content will get more and more interesting. I just hope they'll realize that it's not 2011 with cyber and magic but (post-)cyberpunk 2070 and that they won't be afraid to invent new things and give more substance to things.
On the content of the book itself, it's underwhelming. The topic of the book is vague, and there are some chapters that don't really fit in while other things that could have been great in an "Attitude" book (such as something about reputation, about tribes, memes and sub/alter-cultures) are missing and so is the (post-)cyberpunk Style and Subtance.

In a few days, I'll have my PC run in the night life of an Inner City full of people from different cultures and subcultures, in an adventure that will mostly deal with Style, Attitude, and Life on the Edge, and I won't use much from Attitude (maybe some elements of the gear chapter). I guess that illustrates my point.
Mäx
QUOTE (Blade @ May 6 2011, 01:05 PM) *
the texts are interesting, the gear is fun and/or useful enough to get used by players and not too much "power creep"

Pretty much only think is that, from now on every Troll tank will have mechanical dragon or fairy wings wink.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Mäx @ May 6 2011, 08:45 AM) *
Pretty much only think is that, from now on every Troll tank will have mechanical dragon or fairy wings wink.gif

Great, now I have a Troll Tank in Faerie Wings going, "I'm a pretty, pretty princess!".

...

Well, would you argue with her?
Mäx
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 7 2011, 02:52 AM) *
Well, would you argue with her?

Not unless i had a vehicle mounted gauss cannon. grinbig.gif
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 6 2011, 06:52 PM) *
Great, now I have a Troll Tank in Faerie Wings going, "I'm a pretty, pretty princess!".

...

Well, would you argue with her?

From a distance, perhaps. A great distance.
Grinder
Blut & Spiele got released in german - adventure module containing not only 3 new adventures centered on urban brawl, but also a short primer abour the game, the german league and info on all 32 german teams (including important players, logo, and stuff like that). It's a nice addition to the "Playing Ball"-chapter.
Stahlseele
*nods*
i already bought it.
phlapjack77
is this module available to buy outside of Germany?
Stahlseele
don't think so, but i am not sure . .
LurkerOutThere
On the whole I was favorably impressed with attitude, some of the latter chapters are a little too out there in subject matter, but the gear section is neat without rewriting what gear or magic can do and strong enough to see the light of day without being completely broken.

Edit and Addendum: I left otu the msot important plus to this book, it's something I can hand new players and help them get a feel for the world, I may make the first couple chapters required reading for my gaming group.
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