Yeah, MY GM also has a high dislike for the creatures...
Never really saw any use for them myself.

Never said it was not based upon the manipulation of mana. And yet, it will function when the Pixie's magic is reduced to 0... Seems pretty evident to me.

Or ambient mana, don't forget. Whatever that means.

Your logic is still totally fallacious, so your move. You're currently the poster child of correlation/causation error.

Someone for Dwarves to look down upon?

Gnomes.

I wasn't trying to be necessarilly 'in-character'. I was just pointing out that, if played right, harming a paracritter can be a dangerous thing.....

So...
Harming a Pixie is offensive, but harming an Ork is ok?
You racist!!!

Hm. You have a point, just because one's magic rating is reduced does not mean the ambient mana in the area is gone. On the contrary, you can have a very high mana level in areas with large background count. I might tell a pixie player that it's very turbulent in those areas, though.

Pixies should fall out of the sky like rocks if entering a mana void, though.





-k

I suddenly have a desire to find a bunch of pixies and detonate a nuke in the middle of them.

You realize they will die from the blast way before they fall from the sky, right?

Why fallacious? Backed up by Actual Rules quotes after all... Pixies do not lose the ability to fly when their magic is reduced to 0. Ergo, Magic is not the overriding cause for their flight, their wings are.

I Have never been a poster child for anything before. Maybe this is a new trend?

Harming ANYTHING/ANYONE is NOT OK. And I'm not going to take this thread any further.

Yep. I'm not too concerned about what they die from, just that they die.

Um... Shadowrun is about shooting people in the face for money.

I'm afraid that harming people is going to happen.

But only Incidentally, of course...

"I hurt someone's feelings once." - Sam, Ronin

Exactly...

I think hurting Orks is ok. As well as hurting Trolls and anything else that is ugly. Hurting elves is bad.^^

Heh...

To get back to the original topic;

I think that a wingless Pixie could fly, if they know the right spell. Otherwise, without the wings, no.

Tymeaus, that's not the logic I was talking about. You know it wasn't, because I quoted the part I *was* talking about. Hehe. You logic was this: 'things that fly in SR also have wings; therefore, the wings make them fly'. That's not logic. Try this: 'cars that drive have paint; therefore, paint makes them drive'. And again, I provided you the explicit rules quotation saying that pixie flight is 100% magic; incontestable.

heh...

And I provided the Explicit Rules quote that A Pixie with a Magic of Zero can still fly. Also Incontestible. So, Where does that leave us?

Oh, I know, where we always tend to end up. On opposite sides of the discussion. Is okay though, you often force me to really delve into the topic at hand. So no worries.

Hehe. Again, logic: we know that pixie flight is 100% magical (that is, 0% wings), and we know that it doesn't (strictly RAW) require Magic > 0. Neither of those lead us to the conclusion that wings are involved, though. See? Just two unrelated facts, and the first of the two is written in plain unambiguous English, not the result of rules interpretation.

I'm with Yeramehu. I'm not convinced that the fact that they can fly at 0 Magic means anything in particular with regard to their method of propulsion.

Then why have wings at all? I am looking at Action leads to Reaction (Wings = Flight). I am not really sure what comparison you are making though. Cause/Effect? Magic Leads to Flight, and Wings are Superfluous? Pixies have wings for a reason, and it is not to look pretty.

See, what we think we know (that flight is enabled because of the ambient mana filed) is not what we know (Wings have a purpose)... Just because an ambient mana field is required for flight does not mean that the wings are just decorative.

Tymeaus, come on.No wings! They explicitly have zero effect, because pixie flight is "entirely" magic. There is no axiom, 'wings must have a purpose'. I understand that's annoying, but I'm not arguing about what's annoying.

RAW both interpretations are valid.
Yes, the ability is 100% magic. But this does not mean that the wings do not have a purpose. May be they are required to make the magic work.

Since RAW and RAI are unclear in this instant, balance wise it is not a big deal I think you should go with the solution offering more possibities in the realm of roleplay.
So Pixies can't fly without their wings.

Not at home right now, but I remember something about critters mentioned in my old 2nd edition BBB that, while a pegasus or a dragon can fly, physically speaking the wings and the body structure don't make this possible, so parascientists speculated that it is somehow connected to ambient mana.
Perhaps, the wings are a necessary part of the body to interact with the enviromental mana. In this scenario, as long as you have wings and there is Mana (even if aspected), the critter can fly. The other possible scenario is that wings are just vestigial limbs and you just need enviromental mana to fly.

There is the last scenario that somehow the wings and the wings alone lift the body and while it may work for pixies, I don't see how it would work for other heavy flying critters.

I agree, Irion. Except I describe 'possibilities for roleplay' as 'screwing Pixies when possible, the bastards'.

Tymeaus' point, though, was that the wings physically are responsible for flight (something about 'ACTION=REACTION'); this is certainly wrong, even if the wings are *magically* involved. Whatever else, we know for sure that pixie flight is not at all physical.

Again, the dragons thing, that's something I was thinking of. No way in that case are wings providing sufficient lift. But if we're looking for a purpose for them other than propulsion, I do think it makes sense if they help with control and maneuvering in some way.

It is all relative, I guess. But if all it took was ambient mana to actually achieve flight, more than just the winged creatures would be flying. Since I see no Flying Adepts, I have to go with the Wings actually being needed. All creatures that possess flight have Wings, EXCEPT those that are explicitely pointed out as not needing them.

Do what you want, but it still seems pretty obvious, to me at least, that the wings are there for flight purposes, and nothing else.

Wait . . Pixies can fly with Magic 0?
And their flight is not from the wings?
So they can fly without wings and magic? @.@

This argument can be considered flawed. It might be that no Adept has discovered this ability yet or perhaps the enviromental mana is not high enough for adepts develop flight.

My point is: as I pointed above, I can see reasons for both winged and not-winged flight. You just need to decide what is best for your group.

The text states that they manipulate ambient mana to fly. Flat out. It doesn't say they use their wings to do so. If they have no ambient magic, they can't fly. No matter what their magic rating is currently at, or whether or not they have their wings.

As for why other magically active creatures can't fly, well, that one's simple too. Because their rules entries don't say that they do. Pixies are specifically stated to have the ability to manipulate mana to fly.

It's not unreasonable to EXTRAPOLATE and SPECULATE that the wings might be used to maybe manipulate the mana, but that is going beyond what the text states. It'd be a house rule. I don't think anyone even would have a problem with this being a house rule, only that you seem to be insisting that it's RAW that they use their wings to fly.



-k

I don't know about anything else, but now I want to make a Pixie named "Toot-Toot" who has a Mystical Private Investigator as a contact...

See, confusing isn't it?



And yet you go beyond what the text states in implying that the Wings are just decorative. The text states that they manipulate mana to fly. I have been arguing that their wings are the mechanism that allows them to do so, so that they may achieve actual flight.



Never claimed it was RAW, just claimed that it could go either way. Guess which way we go at our table.

"We must all come to the aid of the Pizza Lord"
heh...

No, I never said the wings were anything. They might be involved. They might not. The rules don't say.

The rules merely state that they manipulate mana to fly. Adding anything on top of that is houseruling.




-k

Fixed the above for you...

And Again, I disagree... Adding anything on top of the FLUFF that states that they manipulate mana to fly is an interpretation, since no actual RULE is involved. It is ALL fluff. Every last bit of it. The only RULE is that a Pixie can Fly with a Magic Rating that has been reduced to Zero. Anything else is obfuscation...

I dunno why you're so fixated on this Magic 0 thing. We've never even been talking about it. I regret mentioning it, as an aside, with the clear disclaimer that I was making a joke and describing a house rule. The point is that you're wrong, and they fly "entirely" using magic. Hehe.

"...if'n y'all grew up human in Salem before '65, shootin' elves in the face is pefectly acceptable.

...you don' even need a reason like money to do it."

Does this mean my troll with magic 0 and no wings can fly too? ^^

Shooting elves in the face is like running through freshly fallen snow.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Rule wise Pixies can fly no matter what, because there is no exception mentioned.
Rulewise everyone can run, even if they have no legs.

But I have to agree, having a effectiv magic attribute of 0 would not prevent them from flying RAW. (But I would never exclude the flufftext from rule interpretation. RAW beats fluff. But fluff gets to talk if RAW stays silent.)

@Stahlseele

No, because their movement table does not state it.

Irritating yet fun?

pretty much yeah.

I would like to add the following addition to the discussion.

My personal interpretation is that magic is what allows them to fly, but the wings might be used for navigation as rudders - but that is all speculation.

I would also say that if the Pixie goes to magic 0 for any reason it's movement of flight becomes 0 as well as it is dependant of magic.

One might say that it could use STR instead for flight in 0 mana areas and if it had no wings it couldn't fly at all in 0 mana areas.

If you listen to Yerameyahu it does...

Except that it is not, and that is not RAW (yes, I know, that was your interpretation).



Except that to run in Flight, you would use the Strength Attribute to formulate the Dice Pool... So one might say that Strength is already a requirement of the system of flight, since it is a linked skill to Strength. There are already precedents for "Running" for Flight (in Running Wild?, maybe the Core? Can't remember exactly where), and they already link to Strength.

How dare you slander me, Tymeaus. I've said 'pixie flight' about a thousand times in this thread, not 'troll flight' or anything like it. Hehe.

heheh...