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mister__joshua
This is a simple question, but one that will have a complex answer. It's something I've been thinking about while reading various sourcebooks and so I thought I'd put it out there.

Is it possible to build a character that really can 'do it all'? Obviously, due to the nature of the system, over an infinite amount of time and with an infinite amount of karma any character could max out every skill, every stat, initiate to an exponential level etc. but this is unfeasible. My question is more about if you had to build a character to act alone, as a solo, covering every role in the party, how would you do it? Is it even possible? I'm thinking money no object, so you can cram the 'ware in, but BPs should be at least reasonable (4 or 5 hundred). Where you can get 'ware or software to replace or enhance skills, go for it! I think things like Skillwires and Agents will both be key, but maybe other people see it differently.

This is mostly just a theoretical excercise so have some fun with it. I know there are broken builds in shadowrun, as in any game, with people running faster than cars and shooting bows that hit like artillery. This isn't about being exploitative, just being really good in any and every situation. Sort of like Future James Bond.

I look forward to any replies biggrin.gif
Abstruse
Almost impossible because there are two essential builds that can't function in the same body: Hacker and magic. Hackers require cyber to be effective and must spend a LOT of money. Magicians cannot have cyber to be effective and must spend a LOT of karma. You could MAYBE squeak out a build that could do both, but there's no way you'd be even remotely effective in combat or as a face (both also required roles, but ones that can easily be combined).

Basically, there's 4 areas that every team has to address to be a "balanced" team: Hacking, combat, magic, and face. Someone has to handle electronic security, someone has to handle magical security/threats, someone has to be able to run a con, and someone has to be able to protect the others when the bullets start flying. There are other skills that are important to have, but those are the ones I consider essential. You can double up easily (shaman/face, combat mage, combat rigger/hacker), but you'd need at least a two-man team to cover all four bases.
Elfenlied
A Pixie Mystic Adept with Voodoo tradition could probably pull it off.

Combat: Spells+Guardian Spirits+Guns
Technical Skills: Adept abilities+Task spirits
Social Skills: High Charisma+Mindrape+Physical Mask
Matrix: Skills+Software+Adept powers
Stealth: Concealment+Small size+Spells

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Nothing it can't pull off, though you need a few initiations to really do it (Cleansing vs Backgroundcount, Improved Masking to hide Physical Mask's aura, and arguably Channeling)
Blade
It can be done, I've seen it. I don't remember all the ways, but here are a few:

- "I edge, I redline, I center and I infuse" : A slightly cybered mystical adept character with a few initiation ranks, the centering and infusion metamagic and a lot of rating 1 powers. She infuses her powers according to the needs. She does combat, hacking/rigging, facing and some magic with something like 14 dice in most situations.

- The Owlmaster: a hacker/rigger with as many trained Oracle Owl as possible. He has the Oracle Owls summon Air Spirits and hand it over to him. The Air spirits do all physical and magical work, he does the hacking/rigging.

- The pixie inside a drone: a pixie stuck inside a drone. The pixie does the facing/hacking/rigging and magic, the drone does the rest.

- Mr Lucky Everything: An Edge 8 Awakened character with decent hacking gear and some basic skills and gear.
Muspellsheimr
Rules as Written
Troll, augmented Hermetic Magician.

Skillwires 5 (1.00 Essence), Skillwire Expert System (0.10 Essence), Muscle Toner 2 (0.40 Essence), Tailored Pheromones 3 (0.60 Essence), Cerebral Booster 2 (0.40 Essence)

Total Essence Loss: 1.95
Mag 6 (4), Edg 4, Bod 5, Agi 4 (6), Rea 4, Str 5, Cha 3, Int 4, Log 4 (6), Wil 5
Assensing 1, Counterspelling 4, Binding 4, Spellcasting 5, Summoning 5

x10 Spells (Increased Reflexes priority, heal, illusion, & manipulation effects suggested)
Highest Initiate Grade possible (if available; Invoking high priority)
Increase augmentation grades & ratings if possible. Add cybereyes if possible. (do not exceed 2.00 Essence Loss)
Invest in high-end Commlink (hardware), high-end Agent, moderate Browse, Firewall, & System. All other software (inc skillsofts) easily available post-generation free of charge, low timeframe, no effort.
Good weapon selection
Rating 4 Sustaining Focus (health)
Highest armor rating available (without encumbrance)
Contacts as appropriate
All additional resources into foci (particularly Power & Sustaining) & binding materials; 'legitimate' software if desired.



Did not add everything together, but should be easily doable with 500BP or less. Invest in utility qualities if possible (mentor spirit, first impression, etc).

Tip: Abuse drugs as much as possible (strong addiction resistance pool). Anything that reduces the chances of addiction is good.
Reminder: You cannot use Edge to add dice to a skillsoft test, but can use it to reroll a failed test. Edge for conjuring in particular is good.


Note: This is the primary reason I think skillwires are bullshit as written - suggest replace with fixed dice pool of 2 + skillsoft Rating, limit to skills linked to Physical attributes. Create second version for skills linked to mental attributes & require for knowsofts etc. Retain skillsoft rating limit of 4 & all other restrictions on use. Increase Essence/Nuyen costs of augmentation itself if using below suggestion for software.
Note: This is a significant reason why I think software & programs as written are an unnecessary & poorly executed complication to the system - suggest remove software. Matrix actions use Skill + Logic. Increase costs of high-end hardware & general usefulness of hacking-oriented 'ware to maintain a division between dedicated hacker and 'secondary skill' hacker. Limit AR matrix actions to 1 IP per combat turn, require implanted DNI for hot-sim (trode net & similar sufficient for cold-sim).






Edit: I had 'first post' when I began typing.
Muspellsheimr
I would just like to note that the above character is a jack of all trades, and quasi-master in most. He cannot match a hyper-specialist in any single field, but comes pretty damn close to many and easily overwhelms them in versatility.
mister__joshua
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 7 2011, 11:08 AM) *
I would just like to note that the above character is a jack of all trades, and quasi-master in most. He cannot however match a hyper-specialist in any single field, but comes pretty damn close to many and easily overwhelms them in versatility.


That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about, someone who can be as close as possible to great without being hyper specialised. I thought it may even be possible to do this while also mastering a single field.


From your notes, can I take it you think Skill Wires and high end Matrix programs/unrestricted agents are overpowered in a bang for your buck sort of way, cos that was my original thought, and what led me to think it may be possible in the first place. smile.gif
Muspellsheimr
I do not play that kind of character. I much prefer a powerful specialist (I enjoy higher-level games usually).

I did however play with that kind of character once, as a technomancer elf. By himself he turned every character except me (the magician) into a redundancy through the use of skillwires & drugs (the downsides of drugs can be mostly negated if done correctly). Needless to say, it was not enjoyable, and yes, skillwires are broken. Although they did try to fix them in SR4A by increasing skillsoft prices, this just made them unusable for many characters without actually hurting the problem.

Agents have their own problems, but for software in general it's not an unbalancing thing. It's just a rather stupid and poorly done subsystem for the matrix. In addition to that, matrix crap is the only area you cannot have a competent secondary skill in by investing in a decent skill or two and attribute, along with some decent basic equipment (for magic, spells & qualities are 'basic equipment', although it is a bit expensive for the comparison). This is because of the necessary cost of numerous high-end programs to even remotely resemble anything competent (easily matching or exceeding the Magician quality). The increased hardware costs & augmentation effects I suggested is to allow a dedicated hacker to really be a specialist, while allowing a competent hacking secondary skill at all.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 7 2011, 10:27 AM) *
I did however play with that kind of character once, as a technomancer elf. By himself he turned every character except me (the magician) into a redundancy through the use of skillwires & drugs (the downsides of drugs can be mostly negated if done correctly). Needless to say, it was not enjoyable, and yes, skillwires are broken. Although they did try to fix them in SR4A by increasing skillsoft prices, this just made them unusable for many characters without actually hurting the problem.


Which, in turn, made them useless for Karmagen at Chargen, and only useful in play if you happen to acquire a lot more cash than Karma. Or if pirated software is available.
Muspellsheimr
1) Karma generation RAW (pre-errata) is horribly broken.
2) Karma generation RAW (post-errata) is just as bad as BP generation.
3) Both karma generation rules sets will, at worst, have no real effect on the build.
4) Karma generation is not default, and so cannot be assumed. To do so is frankly retarded.
5) It is both easy and cheap to maintain pirated software. SR4A errata did impact this, but not enough to stop it, especially when it is executed properly (assuming agents can't use Software, something I have seen posted but never bothered to confirm - if they can, it's free).
6) A techomancer can very easily maintain a nearly unlimited supply of maximum-rating pirated skillsofts at virtually no cost or effort.
7) Skillwires are fucking broken Rules as Written. They enable characters like the one above - essentially a single character shadowrun team. They are only one of the problems.
mister__joshua
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Apr 7 2011, 11:54 AM) *
only useful in play if you happen to acquire a lot more cash than Karma.


This seems like being the case in the game we're playing at least.

Here's the problem I'm having. I'm currently playing in a game where there are 4 combat-oriented characters. Some, melee, some ranged but all combat. There is a technomancer. Then there is me. I was GM for a bit so made my character last, and I'm trying to fill some of the missing party roles. I made a driver/face of sorts as ours is a low-magic game for the moment at least. Now, our technomancer has just died, and the player doesn't fancy making another matrix character, so that's another role thats now not filled. In honesty, I really don't mind this as I've always liked to play characters with a mix of abilities. Currently I'm trying to work out how to fill as many roles as possible to a limited degree, and in the quickest and cheapest way possible...
Muspellsheimr
I looked at the build I posted above again, and it's about ~450 BP Rules as Written. You can trim it down a little bit easily enough and still have a minimum dice pool of 8 for nearly every action in the game (before applying any situational penalties, of course), while still being a respectable face (particularly if you fit SURGE II in for Glamour), and a powerful & versatile magician.

This is still a character I would suggest not playing though, as it's bullshit like this that made me write a (currently incomplete & possibly out of date) house errata document larger than the official errata to balance the game.
Epicedion
You could always use the Priority system from Runner's Companion. Simpler, and much less prone to abuse than BP.
Hamsnibit
In my opinion, nearly every chargen conzept has abusive potential if you are really up to it.
Some people (especially those with this remarkable haircut) tend to max their characters in one way or another. It depends on what people expect and like about PnP RPGs and for my needs patched karmagen just produces more "realistic" feeling and generally smoother characters since it does not punish you for spending 1-2 points in skills like etiquette, computer,data seach, swimming, running ect. . Those skills nearly everyone posseses who simply has lived a certain time and did not spent his whole time (and even these ones may have acquired specific other skills) hunting for the next meal or shelter. And is also in line with the character developement system after you started (you earn karma, remember?). Rolling your 2 dice with a normal guy who is used to walk around in the sprawl feels so sad when you roll all those critical glitches.

just my 2 nuyen.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Hamsnibit @ Apr 7 2011, 01:07 PM) *
In my opinion, nearly every chargen conzept has abusive potential if you are really up to it.
Some people (especially those with this remarkable haircut) tend to max their characters in one way or another. It depends on what people expect and like about PnP RPGs and for my needs patched karmagen just produces more "realistic" feeling and generally smoother characters since it does not punish you for spending 1-2 points in skills like etiquette, computer,data seach, swimming, running ect. . Those skills nearly everyone posseses who simply has lived a certain time and did not spent his whole time (and even these ones may have acquired specific other skills) hunting for the next meal or shelter. And is also in line with the character developement system after you started (you earn karma, remember?). Rolling your 2 dice with a normal guy who is used to walk around in the sprawl feels so sad when you roll all those critical glitches.

just my 2 nuyen.gif


Karmagen does have the benefit of having to follow a more-for-better mentality, which is nice -- you aren't trading the 5th skill point for the first point of another skill, on equal footing.

The Priority system forces you to make extremely important big-picture trade-offs, as opposed to small detailed ones. If you want to be the best magician, you can't have the most money or the best attributes. If you want to be an Elf or Troll, you're trading in your second-best Priority for the option.

On a side note, whenever my players use BP generation, they always, every single time, are trying to figure out what to do with an extra 10k or more nuyen.
Seerow
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 05:45 PM) *
Karmagen does have the benefit of having to follow a more-for-better mentality, which is nice -- you aren't trading the 5th skill point for the first point of another skill, on equal footing.

The Priority system forces you to make extremely important big-picture trade-offs, as opposed to small detailed ones. If you want to be the best magician, you can't have the most money or the best attributes. If you want to be an Elf or Troll, you're trading in your second-best Priority for the option.

On a side note, whenever my players use BP generation, they always, every single time, are trying to figure out what to do with an extra 10k or more nuyen.


Really? Every time I make a character I am left trying to figure out where I can get another 10k nuyen to afford everything I want. Even going max in debt and born rich seems like it's not enough sometimes.
Epicedion
Well, they usually don't aim for 0.1 Essence, and pick up moderate boosts as opposed to "the best" of one thing. Sure you could drop 240k (and Restricted Gear) on a rating 3 Synaptic Booster, and then be super-poor otherwise, but you've got to have something to look forward to, yeah?
CanRay
One character that can "Do It All"?

Pornomancer. (S)He can do it all by convincing everyone else to do it for him/her.
longbowrocks
This is how I see it, but I haven't played a mage or hacker yet, and from what I've seen, the guys in my party who play mage and hacker haven't really explored the possibilities of their builds.

Mage: mob management; tricksy spells
Hacker: data gathering; cyber combat; security clearance
Face: handling entities that can't be handled through combat; getting jobs; getting equipment
Street Samurai: combat; infiltration (I guess anyone could take this role)

I think you could handle the game with a stealthy Street Samurai/Face. In abstract, he has the two extremes nailed: huge progress through diplomacy, and chunky salsa where diplomacy fails.

This builld benefits from the extreme attention given to these two classes in the books. Essentially, you create the strongest firearms expert you can (with attention to charisma and stealth based skills), steal a number of cheap bonuses from the pornomancer to get your social dice pools to about 20, and finally buy a number of handy knick-knacks like smart firing platforms, armor debonder, monowire and triggering mechanisms.

A word to the wise: focus on acting first rather than acting often. synaptic boosters cost hella money, and wired reflexes are such an essence drain it's not even funny (the joke here is that someone with wired reflexes wouldn't think it was funny because their sense of humor would be cybered out of them). In short, you can always try again or set a trap if you escape.

Last but not least, get "erased" or some equivalent quality so that when you try flying under the radar, you are 100% gone.
Makki
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 7 2011, 06:33 PM) *
One character that can "Do It All"?

Pornomancer. (S)He can do it all by convincing everyone else to do it for him/her.


he can do them all
Glyph
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 7 2011, 03:51 PM) *
A word to the wise: focus on acting first rather than acting often. synaptic boosters cost hella money, and wired reflexes are such an essence drain it's not even funny (the joke here is that someone with wired reflexes wouldn't think it was funny because their sense of humor would be cybered out of them). In short, you can always try again or set a trap if you escape.

Extra initiative passes are an absolutely critical component for being effective in combat. Without them, you are just a face who happens to be a good shot. Also, things like wired reflexes increase Reaction, too, which is why street samurai tend to go first and go often.

Not every face will need extra initiative passes, but any character claiming "sammie" as part of their job description should have at least two initiative passes, and preferably three or four.
whatevs
For a universal character, i'd have to go with a magician. Multiple ip's, damage, infiltration, face work. There's an ap (spell) for that. Hacking is the only thing off the top of my head that can't be done directky with magic, but as per raw a little bit of money for some programs and some trodes or whatever and you're almost there.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 7 2011, 06:01 PM) *
Extra initiative passes are an absolutely critical component for being effective in combat. Without them, you are just a face who happens to be a good shot. Also, things like wired reflexes increase Reaction, too, which is why street samurai tend to go first and go often.

Not every face will need extra initiative passes, but any character claiming "sammie" as part of their job description should have at least two initiative passes, and preferably three or four.

What I meant was that you should stick to 2 passes for character creation (1 is better, but it's nice to have that other one if you screw up), where I normally like 3-4. The idea is, if you're facing more than 2-4 enemies solo, you shouldn't be fighting head on. The stealth and high DPS are for making absolutely sure that there are only 1-2 enemies on your battlefield at once.
Otherwise, I agree with you. A party is not mobile, nor can they all soak damage. In that case your ideal plan is to just blitzkrieg everything to kingdom come. I'm proposing a setup where you choose the terms of battle, which involve a long hallway with you at the end, and an escape route nearby.
Whipstitch
That's super limiting though. I mean, it's not uncommon for me to sic something like an entire pack of Ferret minidrones or guard dogs on my players before the human element of the security team even puts down their coffee mugs. Yeah, sure, a 9 reaction front liner can avoid such attacks from a few opponents like that consistently, but if they're only taking down a couple a combat turn the Face might rather quickly be forced to find out if the "Don't tase me bro," strategy works any better with 7 Charisma. Being able to do a large amount of damage per pass is nice, but so is being able to do a high amount of damage per combat turn, and adding a pass or two does that rather efficiently while giving you some wiggle room if and when more characters enter a combat scene.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Apr 7 2011, 09:29 PM) *
That's super limiting though. I mean, it's not uncommon for me to sic something like an entire pack of Ferret minidrones or guard dogs on my players before the human element of the security team even puts down their coffee mugs. Yeah, sure, a 9 reaction front liner can avoid such attacks from a few opponents like that consistently, but if they're only taking down a couple a combat turn the Face might rather quickly be forced to find out if the "Don't tase me bro," strategy works any better with 7 Charisma. Being able to do a large amount of damage per pass is nice, but so is being able to do a high amount of damage per combat turn, and adding a pass or two does that rather efficiently while giving you some wiggle room if and when more characters enter a combat scene.

Maybe, Maybe. But I have yet to see one who can outsmart smartgun (actually, why did I say that? I'm not aiming to be the Heavy).
My reasoning is that if they start overwhelming me, it's possible the AK-97s I laid down on smart firing platforms aren't doing their jobs. or my chameleon suit isn't working too well with my flash-pak to keep them guessing.
Luckily I chose a narrow alley with a sewer at the end, good thing they can only come one at a time. Dang, getting pushed back again. I'll activate the wireless detonator caps I laid on the building supports down the alley from me. Suddenly the group I'm currently facing is buried under rubble. Next group gets into the area that was too strong for me to blow up, so I pull some chunky salsa with a frag grenade. walls 1m on either side, so 12+10+8+6+4+2 DV = 42 DV without scatter. At this point I hear a chopper coming, so I sacrifice a flash pak and disappear into the sewers.

It seems to me that this is just a different play style.
Whipstitch
Yeah, it is a different playstyle. It's one that figures you're fighting on ground you've had an opportunity to prepare and not vice versa. That's fine at some tables but in my games those situations are a milk run thing more often than not.
Glyph
Besides, there is nothing about having three or four initiative passes that precludes using tactics. But while SR4 can be a very tactical game, there will be times when you don't have the time to set something up, or your inspiration runs dry at a critical moment. High dice pools and multiple initiative passes are what give you the slack that you need to survive, when violence erupts suddenly or unexpectedly.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 9 2011, 03:46 PM) *
Besides, there is nothing about having three or four initiative passes that precludes using tactics. But while SR4 can be a very tactical game, there will be times when you don't have the time to set something up, or your inspiration runs dry at a critical moment. High dice pools and multiple initiative passes are what give you the slack that you need to survive, when violence erupts suddenly or unexpectedly.

I actually haven't tried playing with stealth yet, so I won't cite the high stealth skills and chameleon armor, but this still seems to be a clear win to me. Almost everyone you run into (in our campaigns) will have extra initiative passes. When the enemy force is getting over 10 initiative passes to your 1-5, no amount of soak is going to save you. Solution? Don't get into those situations.
I don't think this game is frequently set in a barren plain, but that's the only place running or hiding are not options. When you can run and shoot with a measly -2 penalty, and stack multiple speed bonuses, it seems a simple matter to get out of the center of an ambush, and stay out while you look for a solution.

Tell me if I screw up anywhere here.
You're driving down a road and come to a red light. At some point, your vehicle has become surrounded by a few cars with matching colors. An Ork gets out of the lead vehicle, walks over to your car and says: "you're coming with us". You raise your hands submissively and get out of the car. Once out, you roll initiative, and clear all other rolls by a mile. Since you have a single initiative pass, you can move your entire speed this pass (exploit!). You roll your run dice, get 2 hits, and cover 66 meters (base + skimmers + celerity/satyr legs/raptor legs + 2*hits). That gets you far enough into an alley that no one can quite catch up, and behind a dumpster until your next pass. If they fire at the dumpster, that's 16 bonus armor, so no worries. Next combat turn you lob a flash/gas/smoke grenade to foil any readied actions and suppressive fire, then book it into one of the buildings that overlook your abandoned car (not the best choice, but you want your car and smart firing platforms back).
While some of the gangsters search the building for you, you make your way to a room overlooking your vehicle. Quietly, you check the enemy formations and lob a frag grenade into the most dense portion, and lay a flash-pak in the window sill. Next, you move to a new room, set a couple sensors down the hall, and traps outside the door, activate the flash-pak, and start taking pot shots at guys who A) think you're next to the blinding flashes of light at first, and B) still get the -4 penalty even if they see you since looking at you keeps it well within their field of vision.
You clear out the guys down below with a few grenades and head-shots, then turn your attention to those who came after you. In the event they decide to destroy the building to gut their losses, you use your grappling gun to set a monowire line across the street. After that, just do whatever you think is necessary to hunt down the remaining gangsters, who are probably split up inside the building, and can't contact each-other if they each die in one shot.

P.S. This took me a while to write. I hope you like it even if you don't agree!
Glyph
The biggest two problems I see with that setup are that the gangers are likely to have held actions, and that it is unlikely you could run past a group of potential captors without giving them any attacks of opportunity.

It was fun to read, but the example sounded more like someone writing a story than someone playing a character. I didn't get any sense of the character needing to get his bearings, operating in unfamiliar surroundings. Everything was too conveniently exactly how the character needed it, and the gangers stumbled around without any attempts at tactics of their own.
KarmaInferno
Why is the answer to "get out of the car" not "I pop up the reinforced turret with autocannon and coaxial HMG"?





-k
Whipstitch
Even with the cherry picked situation the character in question is actually using up quite a few actions. Readying a weapon, opening a door or Observing In Detail can eat up a Simple Action in this game. If Initiative Passes were just a flat bonus to DV or some other such nonsense this wouldn't even be a conversation given the expense. But as it stands Initiative Passes are part of how your character thinks fast and acts fast. A character with extra passes can do many of the same tricks on a smaller time table while locking the door on his way out. I agree that for many archetypes there's often better investments out there than burning 3 essence but given the opportunity cost I don't see much reason why Samurai should pass up on 3 passes.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 9 2011, 08:43 PM) *
The biggest two problems I see with that setup are that the gangers are likely to have held actions, and that it is unlikely you could run past a group of potential captors without giving them any attacks of opportunity.

I was assuming the other gangsters were in their cars, so they would be delayed in acting. I didn't assume they would have readied actions from the get-go since we've always played with initiative as the iron rule (unless there's a surprise pass, but hulking vehicles slowly closing in doesn't strike me as "surprise!"). Rather, I was hoping to get the surprise in my favor by appearing to go quietly. I guess I could start with a flash bang to get out, and something else to inhibit thermo/ultrasound vision.

QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 9 2011, 08:43 PM) *
It was fun to read, but the example sounded more like someone writing a story than someone playing a character. I didn't get any sense of the character needing to get his bearings, operating in unfamiliar surroundings. Everything was too conveniently exactly how the character needed it, and the gangers stumbled around without any attempts at tactics of their own.

Yeah, I admit it was a bit wordy, but in that paragraph I accounted for the most serious/real threats. If you like I could go over an alternate scenario where they find me in the room while I'm picking off their buddies on the street, or heaven forbid, they have access to a satellite mounted THOR (my strategy in this case is to die and try not to mess with these guys next time I play Shadowrun).
I'll outline the threats I countered:
  • gangsters have higher initiative than me. -> get out of car before them, appearing docile.
  • gangsters ready actions to fire as soon as they get out (when I'm behind the dumpster). -> throw flash bang.
  • gangsters have suppressive fire up (I'm behind dumpster). -> gas/choking grenade, or something of that variety to impair them.
  • gangsters want stuff in car. -> take building overlooking car.
  • gangsters follow me in. -> I cover ground faster and take a top floor room. They need to check every room on the way up. Even subdividing it will take a while.
  • gangsters on street might actually hit me despite range and cover. -> flash-pak.
  • gangsters on street still numerous. -> flash-pak in different location to mislead them.
  • gangsters on street take cover. -> readied actions to snipe any who break cover, and indirect fire from grenades. I admit I glossed over this one, but it's really just basic combat with ungodly bonuses in my favor.
  • gangsters decide to level building. -> grappling line.
  • people might see grappling line. -> monowire.
  • gangsters searching building happen upon me in a tight spot. -> traps (and sensors so I'm not surprised, but they are).
  • gangsters try to contact each-other when they find me. -> I act first and pity the fools who can't resist 17 DV to the face with what's left of their armor (Barett 121 with 24 dice pool will do that to ya).
longbowrocks
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 9 2011, 09:53 PM) *
Why is the answer to "get out of the car" not "I pop up the reinforced turret with autocannon and coaxial HMG"?





-k

Lol, I like that plan. Can we switch and make that the main plan?
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Apr 9 2011, 09:54 PM) *
Even with the cherry picked situation the character in question is actually using up quite a few actions. Readying a weapon, opening a door or Observing In Detail can eat up a Simple Action in this game. If Initiative Passes were just a flat bonus to DV or some other such nonsense this wouldn't even be a conversation given the expense. But as it stands Initiative Passes are part of how your character thinks fast and acts fast. A character with extra passes can do many of the same tricks on a smaller time table while locking the door on his way out. I agree that for many archetypes there's often better investments out there than burning 3 essence but given the opportunity cost I don't see much reason why Samurai should pass up on 3 passes.

Maybe I don't quite get the meaning of "cherry picked", but this was the worst situation I could think of short of "area cranial bomb". In that case, everyone please ignore my idea and go for surgeon with as many levels of high pain tolerance as possible. grinbig.gif

I figured opening the door would require an action, so I delayed initiating combat (I've never met a GM who wouldn't allow that provided it was a short delay that the enemies would reasonably accept. i.e. surrendering).

As for locking the door: dang that's a good idea! I guess I could've done more. In fact, wired reflexes could help, but they don't suit my sense of beauty, and I'm trying to prove that it can be done without extra passes.
Whipstitch
Cherry picking was perhaps too strong a word for it. I just mean that it is still a hypothetical situation in which you are in territory that is as unknown to your opponents as it is to you. My idea of a worst case scenario for a samurai is more along the lines of having to leave an alerted facility while an extraction target or less athletic teammate is cramping your style. Having more than just initiative passes at your disposal is still a great help in such a case, but given that the use of tools takes actions, I find extra IPs to be an excellent thing to have up your sleeve. I'll grant you that it's best to avoid such nasty scenarios to begin with, but part of being a shadowrunner-- or an experienced runner with some karma under their belt, at any rate-- may be taking on jobs where you aren't given the full story or are expected to take on long odds. Drek happens.

Beyond that, most things have a threshold where they are no longer adequate for saving your bacon. That however, doesn't necessarily make those things useless. For example, it's not uncommon for my non-combat oriented characters to end up with 7-9 dice and a stick 'n' shock loaded pistol as one of their sideline skills. I do that not because I expect to take down Yak hit men, but because there are situations in the game that can be greatly simplified by being able to put down a guard dog, scrawny ganger or mall cop with little fuss.
longbowrocks
This is kind of a solo build, so the team-mate was a moot point. I didn't think of an extraction target though.

As for leaving an alerted facility, that would be really tough since I'd have a difficult time hiding from surveillance with creating temporary blind spots in their network. Blind spots that would effectively say "Hello! I'm going this way!"
On the other hand, this build is pretty close to the ideal for not alerting the facility in the first place.

Last I'd like to say that I'm seeing a bit of your side (as long as the extra IPs aren't used for pure dumb combat), but if I admitted extra IPs were useful, we would stop arguing, and that would be no fun. biggrin.gif
Keep 'em coming!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 10 2011, 11:28 AM) *
This is kind of a solo build, so the team-mate was a moot point. I didn't think of an extraction target though.

As for leaving an alerted facility, that would be really tough since I'd have a difficult time hiding from surveillance with creating temporary blind spots in their network. Blind spots that would effectively say "Hello! I'm going this way!"
On the other hand, this build is pretty close to the ideal for not alerting the facility in the first place.

Last I'd like to say that I'm seeing a bit of your side (as long as the extra IPs aren't used for pure dumb combat), but if I admitted extra IPs were useful, we would stop arguing, and that would be no fun. biggrin.gif
Keep 'em coming!



Well... Multiple IP's ARE usfeul... biggrin.gif
longbowrocks
Not much I can say to that. notworthy.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 10 2011, 11:38 AM) *
Not much I can say to that. notworthy.gif


Heh... Unfortunately, IP's only really matter IN combat. When you are outside of Combat, it is truly irrelevant whether your action is done in .75 Seconds or 3 Seconds, because you are not tracking Turns at that point.
longbowrocks
eat cereal (extended test, 1 IP): eat your breakfast for increased energy later in the day!
Blade
Ok, a friend of mine has found the character to rule them all (at chargen, with 750 karma).

A mage with with Magic 10 (spend your karma for initiation grades) constantly posessed by a rating 20 allied spirit.
With the right spirit powers and metamagics (I don't remember the specifics), he'll look like a human even on the astral plane, will default with 19 dice for defaultable skills and will have all other necessary skills at rating 20. For the hacking part, you'll just need a decent commlink with all rating 1 programs and you'll have your 21 dice. He also won't bother rolling to soak all but the most insanely powerful magical and physical attacks.

Sure he can't do a run in space or any mana void. But other than that, he should be able to do everything by himself.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 28 2011, 08:59 AM) *
Ok, a friend of mine has found the character to rule them all (at chargen, with 750 karma).

A mage with with Magic 10 (spend your karma for initiation grades) constantly posessed by a rating 20 allied spirit.
With the right spirit powers and metamagics (I don't remember the specifics), he'll look like a human even on the astral plane, will default with 19 dice for defaultable skills and will have all other necessary skills at rating 20. For the hacking part, you'll just need a decent commlink with all rating 1 programs and you'll have your 21 dice. He also won't bother rolling to soak all but the most insanely powerful magical and physical attacks.

Sure he can't do a run in space or any mana void. But other than that, he should be able to do everything by himself.


1st... Would not fly as a Starting Character... No Way, No How...
2nd... Why would a Mana void Cause Issues? The Spirit will still have 8 Points of Force/Magic rfemaining. So, you do not have any inate magical ability remaining, but the Possessing Spirit does.
3rd... As for soaking Damage. The gun of Choice for that is the Izacoatl Gaus Cannon. Base Damage of 18p, Half -10 Armor (So the Hybrid spirit (possessed right?) has an Effective Hardened Armor of 10 remaining), and with 25 Soak Dice (Troll with Max Augmented of 15 Body, could stack additional armor of course), you can only purchase 6 hits, so net damage of 2 plus net successes (if Hit). You will eventually lose that game.

And just as a Note. It takes 530 Karma alone for the Magic 10, Ally Spirit 20 (With absoiilutely no additional powers/abilities), 4 Initiation Grades and the Magician Quality. Not much left for anything else. Let alone the Drain Statistics for even considering summonig a Force 20 Spirit (Even as an Ally). Completely Ludicrous and non-playable.

And WHY would you have a Force 20 Ally Spirit, exactly? A Being that would make a Great Dragon stop, take notice and choose to negotiate rather than Fight? A being that has an Order of Magnitude of Intellect over your own? Sorry. Not going to happen. He would squash the insolent character like an insignificant little bug.
sabs
But the rules say I can summon Spirits up to twice my Magic Rating! They say it right there! SO clearly I can summon a rating 20 spirit trivially. I mean, just because I'd have to resist a DV of 8 Physical damage. That's no big deal.

Right?

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ Apr 28 2011, 09:34 AM) *
But the rules say I can summon Spirits up to twice my Magic Rating! They say it right there! SO clearly I can summon a rating 20 spirit trivially. I mean, just because I'd have to resist a DV of 8 Physical damage. That's no big deal.

Right?


DV of 8? Heheh... Not to mention that a Force 20 Spirit is GOING to spend Edge to resist the summoning. SO 40 Dice, against the Summoning Dice Pool of 16-20 (the character really does not have a loty of remaining points to purchase skills and such). So, lets be generous. Charactger gets 1/2 Hits, so 8... the SPirit gets 1/3 Hits, plus 1/6 for the Edge Expenditure, so 15... Summoning Fails, and the character takes 30 PHYSICAL Drain.

As I said, not going to happen. smile.gif
sabs
But having a spirit spend edge is CHEATING! That's the DM being a gronard bastard, who hates me. *sniff* He can't handle effective characters, so he has to cheat!


Okay, I can't actually keep saying that with a straight face.
I really do hate these edge characters that only work if your DM is clinically brain dead.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 28 2011, 07:59 AM) *
will default with 19 dice for defaultable skills

Wouldn't it be 17?
9 max aug attrib
+
9 max aug skill
-
1 for default
=
17?
longbowrocks
Also, why would you be resisting a standard DV of less than half the force of your spirit?
Blade
For the 3rd point, isn't there some spirit power that raises the hardened armor? But it's true that the Izacoatl Gauss Cannon is a dangerous weapon to most people and things.

Yes, it's costly to buy all this. But the main idea of the character is this:
He's an old man. He's been a mage since the awakening, and this spirit has been his allied spirit for a looooooonnnnnnnng time. He's put at least 20 years worth of karma in it. And now he's old. He's weak (physical attributes to 1), he's neglected his own skills for so long that he's forgotten how to do most of the things he used to (nearly no skills on his own). But his ally spirit doesn't want him to die, so it possesses him all the time.

So, the human character requires few karma points and the spirit was summoned a long time ago, back when it was a low force spirit (so no problem with drain) and it learned to hide soon enough to avoid attracting the attention of Great Dragons.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 28 2011, 08:27 AM) *
3rd... As for soaking Damage. The gun of Choice for that is the Izacoatl Gaus Cannon. Base Damage of 18p, Half -10 Armor (So the Hybrid spirit (possessed right?) has an Effective Hardened Armor of 10 remaining)

Would you really equip every jeep and buggy in seattle with a weapon that even outshines some of the Ares Weapons Satellite game-breakers just to counter this guy? Not to mention, how often would he find himself in vehicle combat?
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE
And WHY would you have a Force 20 Ally Spirit, exactly?

I guess because you can.

Well, but it ain't that simple.
There are some problems. (Even if I would never let an ally spirit use edge but thats something else)

First you need the spirit formular.

There are two option:
Metaplanar Quest: Not possible since the GM won't give you the formular for an Force 20 Spirit.
Arcana Test: The conjurer may devise the formula from scratch by making a
Logic + Arcana (Force x 5, 1 day) Extended Test.

Well, you would need 100 hits. I think that is impossible. (Since every day your pool is reduced by one)
To get that amount of hit (calculating with 3 dices one hit) you would need a dice pool of at least: 25. (It will still take you a month)
Oh and you need a lodge of the force of the ally spirit!
Availability:40. There is no way you are getting that at chargen.
Oh, and you have to summon and bind him. Without edge you are still looking at 8+14=22 points of drain.
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