@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is 12 minus Magic hours.
So if you cast a Force 3 Ritual, with magic 6 it takes 6 hours.
But yes, that is the main drawback.

Who said the character has a Magic of 6? He has a Magic of 3. Looking to raise it, eventually, to a Magic of 5, but that is in the future.

Sorry, just read force 3 and thought you might be calculating based on force since you gave no other numbers.

Hey, no worries.

Yes, I know; I know that when it was posted a page back, possibly by me even!


1: I already commented on the preserve spell. Please read the comments before posting.

2: There is a button called Multiquote. It allows you to easily quote a lot of responses in a single post. Note how I'm using it? Please try and stop cluttering up the thread with random short posts.


That's why I come to Dumpshock as a whole for advice on what I cannot do, but not individual posters necessarily. I respect individual posters, who's experience might not be the same, but whose cunning and skill outstrips me. Similarly, I dismiss anyone whose tone I find offensive, condescending, and rude; or who dismisses my experience without knowing or asking what I've done with the game, and why.


1: The great strength of ritual sorcery is a group. Without access to a steady pool of NPC's to participate, your ritual sorcery pools will be weak.
2: IIRC, ritual materials are still required. AFB at the moment, but don't you still need them?
3: You still need summoning and binding materials, plus good skills in those areas. True, you'd need that anyway, but you're wasting a service (and thus, ritual materials) when using a spirit as a spotter.
4: Opportunity cost of time. While you're sitting for 9 hours chanting and sweating, the face or sam could be sweating down people in the street, the decker could be using Data Search-- all for zero expenditure of resources, zero risk of drain, and so on and so forth. Also, it's less spotlight-hogging.

What about a Nosferatu Centaur Cyberzombie?

Speak for yourself, I apply my critical strike bonus to my implant at every opportunity.

Don't be ridiculous. Nosferatu, Centaur, and cyberzombie are all mutually incompatible, plus CZ is non-chargen/non-player.

I don' t know if I'd go so far as to say he's playing a pornomancer (his error, not yours)... he's a social adept Dryad with tailored pheromones. Not a lot else really going there. And no, the rest of the campaign isn't a "freaks campaign" either, the other players have barely scratched the surface of optimization - hell the shapeshifter actually uses a harpoon gun. The sniper is scary, but they, aren't they always?

Not trying to target your comments specifically, but hoping to get this discussion back on topic... we'd love to see some more advice on building a magician.

Though I do agree fully with your "doesn't anyone play normal races any more?" comment. I warn everyone that if you make a character that stands out, and metavariants do, other races moreso, you will pay the consequences. When you are trying to hide, being unique or damned close, is a capital B bad idea.

I agree. I hate ritual spellcasting because you can just create a symbolic link and go to town. If I understand it right, some no name mage can spend all day taking potshots at Llofwyr until there's a new head of Saeder Krupp.

I wasn't questioning your experience, simply your method. I'm sorry for offending you, but I was commenting on the notion that you seem to be emphasizing the idea that because Ritual Sorcery isn't as good as Spellcasting, it has no worth. This is usually the purview of pink mohawk, and can be regardless of experience level. No one is doubting your history with the game. If you've been playing since before the Berlin Wall was down, I believe you, but you can't post ideas about what you like in Shadowrun and not expect people to have an idea of what your Shadowrun games are like.
Again, sorry if I offended you.

I see. I'll revise that in the future. One of the players in a game long ago convinced me that the ritual extended the sense range to the point of ritual sorcery and I was in the middle of GMing so took his word for it. I'll know to ammend that in the future. Thanks.

Most of the rituals I do, I do alone.(no comments from the peanut gallery) It's just like a regular spell, but you can use a spirits to spot or use a material link. The extra time it takes seems worth it to surpass LOS.
I'm not saying it's better than spellcasting, but ignoring it for cheap at character gen and calling it worthless simply because Spellcasting is used more often doesn't seem to be optimizing for play, but rather optimizing for crunch.
It's like calling Pistols worthless because Automatics have better stats.

Pistols are worthless, because Automatics have better stats. Or, as I said many posts ago, 'vastly less useful than spending it on other things'.

How about holdouts?

Really? When you make a street samurai you don't buy Pistols?

Why would he?

1. But it is not a requirement, and It does not need Massive dice pools to be useful.
2. Nope, not required. Looked in the Book.
3. Summoning requires no Materials. Bound spirits are not necessary.
4. Which is why you take multiple avenues. No amount of "sweating people" will help you identify a DNA sample.

No Spotlight Time required. I do my ritual, roll my dice... GM (or designate) rolls his dice, move along. Easy Peasy. Not sure why you think it is such a monumental waste of time. Still no expenditure of resources is involved, Drain is minimal to none, and so on and so forth.

Anyways.

Except it won't work this way. The target may notice how the spell builds up (and Lofwyr will notice), can trace back the spotter and then you're in deep trouble.
That's hypothetical anyway though, as Lofwyr will most likely be inside a warded area all the time so the spell won't reach him in the first place.

While the capability of astral retaliation is pretty rare among people in general, it's much higher among those actually worth a magical assassination atempt. Wards are even more common, upper-class security level is enough for that.

Pistols are extra crappy on a magician given that they have a few extra tricks for sneaking bigger guns through and can potentially just zap people if they really have to. So short of being stuck in a high background count they don't necessarily need to keep a hold-out or light pistol discreetly hidden away lest they be defenseless. Meanwhile, a mage who spent the points on automatics, longarms or heavy weapons can can easily have the punch needed to wreck combat drones, which is nice given that drones have high OR and immunity to stun damage and mental or organic target manipulations. I mean, honestly, even a cheapo Defiance T-250 or AK-97 with normal ammo has a good shot at putting a decent hole in a Steel Lynx, and if you've got APDS you can be reasonably certain of hurting even light security vehicles like a Patrol-1 or a Yellowjacket.

As far as samurai are concerned, I don't really see much mechanical justification for taking the pistols skill given that a pretty standard chargen samurai with muscle toners can reasonably expect to default to 7 to 9 dice with a stick 'n' shock loaded hold out pistol as long as they've got a smartlink or laser sight. As a last, last resort I would be pretty comfortable with that in the BP system given that you could always just take 1 rank of skill and hold-out specialization for 6 karma instead of 6 bp at some later date if you're really -that- worried about getting caught with your pants down sometime during your career. And that's assuming that the guy can't hurt people with his hands or with cyber spurs. I mean, hey, I'm not a huge fan of melee in SR, but as long as we're talking about unpalatable offensive options, I thought I'd mention it given that Unarmed, Blades or Clubs can at least add to defense pools as well.

I may have read something about noticing ritual spell power buildup, but I don't remember where.

Still, it sucks that I can't think of any way for a mundane to defend himself (aside from getting erased so his likeness never shows up in the first place).

Sitting behind a ward would be sufficient. Having a warded room in your home is pretty much standard issue when your lifestyle includes a good security contract. Paying a mage (or anybody who can astrally perceive) to set up a ward costs a couple hundred . Not too much for being safe from ritual spellcasting and astral spies.

Hm. Uses magic, but I guess I can't be choosy.

Bound spirits are necessary if you're doing it alone, and most of the examples given have been solo. And binding spirits requires binding materials, and spotting requires a service. As far as sweating people goes, you can today get a DNA identification kit from Rite-Aid. It's called a paternity test. Given 2070 connectivity and technology, I can't see why one can't run a DNA sample through a DNA scanner and run a Data Search through the SIN/Criminal/Unidentified database. And you're wrong on the spotlight time, especially when you're trying to get the mage to roleplay a ritual, the same as you'd try tog et the face to roleplay a legwork session.


None taken, but to put it bluntly: you don't know my method. I've got lots of methods and styles I use, depending on the tastes of the gaming group and what I'm running at the time. Ritual Sorcery 1 is worthless, and while investing heavily in it can be useful, you can get similar utility by investing elsewhere.

In my experience, and mechanically speaking, ritual sorcery doesn't offer enough return for your investment at low levels, and requires too much investment for high levels. That's what I hoped to offer the OP: simple tricks to building his character so he gets the most bang for his buck. Ritual Sorcery also used to be decidedly advanced rules, so I try to avoid that for new players.

It takes a high magic and/or some serous summoning skill to get a long enough service or short enough ritual but watchers solve this problem.

Assuming all dna samples exist in a single database (which I disagree with) how are you getting access to it? What if their sinless? And do you have the time to wait for the results, which at least today, can take weeks if you don't know who the owner is. And then their are things besides just who it belongs to you can get from ritual sorcery using spells like mind probe etc.

Depends on the GM but if the mage gets some solo spotlight like the face, or hacker, or sam who have their own special kind of legwork then whats the problem?

My only issue here is stating the last sentence as fact, the rest, yep your game, run it however you guys have fun. Personally I'm not a fan of it either for style reasons.

That's been my experience as well but I suspect more cloak and dagger type games might get some use, but now I'm just theorizing.

I agree.

Nowadays it takes weeks, but in 2070 it should only take seconds, if you have access to a police database. Which any decent decker can do. Run the guy down using conventional methods, and then use Mind Probe; it works just as well and involves all the players.


Ritual Sorcery of 1 is worthless. You can't participate in a group, and your dice pool is too small to be of any use. The biggest advantage of a high Ritual Sorcery skill is the larger number of people you can have in the group, and the larger dice pool it brings. Sure, you can do some cool things at that level, but you can do a lot of cool things by buying up other skills instead. That is a fact. I'm unsure what you're objecting to, I guess.

You do not need any spotter with street magic. Thats the shit about it. You can basicly get the coffee cup of your victim, drive home and nuke him.
If he does not know a better mage than you are, he is FUCKED.
Face can have a one night stand with the bodyguard and the next day this bodyguard shoots the target in the head.
And so on and so forth. If you are not bringing up some serious mojo (which smells in most instances like metagaming) the target has no fucking chance.


@longbowrocks

Nope, because Lofywr has some major mojo. (Not that the normal mage would even get through his willpower.
So even if he does not notice it and is not behind a ward you do it one time and one time only. Then there is this greater Force 10 spirit kicking your ass an rosting you well done. (Because you know you can't trust the food these days)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Which can easy be countered by getting a pill from the medkid.

No they are not, I can use a Material Link... How do you miss these things Cain?
DNA Testing today takes Many, Many Hours (Generally more than 12, and only IF you have the appropriate equipment, AND IF the person's DNA is on file. Ritual Sorcery does not care about equipment or Files.
Not wrong on the spotlight time. Your table may differ of course. I bet your Hackers hog a lot of time as well, don't they? See, we solved that problem a long time ago.



Ever Considered that other people hav a different expereince than you do?

And if the person is not encoded? Then What?



No it is not... I am objecting to your use of your opinion as Fact. My expereinces directly contradict your OPinion. SO it is not a FACT. Get off your high horse...

I didn't. *YOU* did, apparently, miss it in my previous posts. Without the preserve spell, minor DNA samples are going to be worthless within a few hours, not long enough to complete a ritual. And if you've got enough non-chemically-preserved samples for a major link, then odds are they guy's in a hospital somewhere. See what I mean about hidden costs?


But in 2070, biometric (genetic) locks take seconds, even for large corporate files. Worldwide tests should only take a couple of minutes. Think of it this way: a fingerprint check against every known US sample only takes a couple of minutes in 2011. Ritual sorcery might not care about files, but it does care about astral barriers and background count, both of which can occur naturally and are cheap to anyone trying to protect from it. Generally speaking, Astral tracking is useful only as a last resort when conventional methods fail.


A Background Count of 1 or 2 isn't serious mojo, but could be almost everywhere from the despair of the Barrens. It alone will cripple any minorly-skilled attempt at Ritual Sorcery.


1: Dude, Multiquote! Stop cluttering the thread!
2: Encoded? Surely you mean SINless? Check the unregistered database, or versus fake SINs. Those can tell you a lot. It's called "legwork" you really should try it sometime.


Your experiences, despite what you claim, are heavily house-ruled. Based on your admissions in other threads, you call them "interpretations" but it amounts to the same thing. Get your head out of the sand.

@Cain

The search does not take long. The point is isolating and testing the DNA.


BC does only reduce the Force. Since I do not have enough dices to get hits up to Force.
I do not give a fuck about BC 2.

So much hostility around here. And what in god's name is 'cluttering the thread', and why is it bad?

Also a symbolic link, which will not degrade over time.
Or are we talking about abilities available from creation? This should only take 2-3 runs to get your first initiation.

I'm tempted to play a mage in our next campaign to prove that effectiveness of ritual casting depends on experience.
On the other hand, I hate awakened characters, and that would forfeit my sammie/face that I've been building.

Cain, TJ: stop it.

If we can try to drag this thread back on track. What are some things that are considered absolutely necessary for a mage. The spellcasting skill? Any tips or tricks on resisting drain? What wares are worth considering? Are there any non-magical skills which add good synergy to a mage? (I'm looking at you, First Aid) If you were to only have 1 spirit bound, what spirit type would it be?

I generally find a trauma dampener a great boon, as it is a guarenteed hit on drain, or at a minimum when you overcast it negates some of the problems with excess drain from a bad roll, on top of greatly improving the survivability of the mage, I generally put in muscle toner 2 in just so I can shoot something accurately when magic is not the order of the day, or for when you want high damage low drain grenades...

Yeah, everyone loves drain ignoring. Although, you can just use First Aid for that. It's a question of how much time you have, and convenience.

That's one of the things I like about human Logic tradition mages, actually. It's entirely possible to cram Cerebral Booster 2, a cyberpart and a Pain Editor into a single point worth of essence. That can let you hit elf-like drain stats while also doubling up on vision enhancers or extra armor. Very handy for characters who like to make use of high drain mind manipulations as a combat panic button.

Alright, so I see most people advocating 1 essence point worth of ware. What about for those of us who have GMs that follow the RAW and decrease both your magic stat and your magic cap? Is it still worth it, knowing you'll be starting with a magic attribute at 4? I'm thinking that's a pretty steep price to pay myself, but certainly worth checking.

Other questions for this first time mage player:

1. I agree that its better to use karma for specializations than BP. The question though is should I specialize first and then worry about increasing my Magic attribute, initiating, binding foci, etc.? On the one hand, the specializations are a quick way to improve your character, probably after your first session. On the other though, its gonna take a little while to boost your magic up and initiate, not to mention adding in new foci that you couldn't afford at char gen.

2. Speaking of Char Gen, I'm having BP issues with all the suggestions here. How many spells should I be looking at to start? How many skills do I need to have at least a little bit of points in? I assume spell casting should probably be a 6 but then when you add a 4 to conjuring and counterspelling, in addition to paying for your magic attribute and Mage quality, etc. things start to get expensive. Adding foci at the start also complicates matters as they are both expensive and require a BP cost to attune to you. Even with 30 points worth of negative qualities I'm running low on BP. How much edge should I have? It sounds like Edge is pretty important for a Mage but is it worth it for a Human to go up to 6 or should my human mage stop at 5?

Anyhoo, sorry for the text wall but just trying to figure out if there's any kind of a consensus.

I doubt there's anyone in this thread who doesn't use the RAW on this matter. Starting out with Magic 4 instead of 5 isn't a big deal when you consider the advantages such as higher drain dicepools or negating visibility penalties when spellcasting.

Edge is good for everything, all the time, and it's better the more you have. But it's not necessary for anything.

It's more necessary for low-Magic mages, though. Since it allows you to break the success cap on spells, you'll be using Edge more often than a mundane.

@Gargs454

Honestly: Whats the difference between starting with magic 3/4/5?
Not so much at all I guess.
But ignoring 6 points of visibility modifier? Ouch.
Having two more dices for drain and any logic based skill?
Getting the possibility to stay up double the time and sleep half.

The only thing getting you is if your GM insists, that you have (having lost two points of essence) to raise you magic from 5 to 6 to get an effectiv raiting of 4.

I would disagreee here. If you are a low magic mage (what does that mean anyways?), chances are very good you are not casting things that need to break the cap all that much anyways. I know my mage does not. In almost 200 Karma, I think I have done that 3 times maybe?

Anytime you throw a mental manipulation spell, or a spell that really, really needs to go off, you need a high Force and the successes that go with it. If you prefer to avoid the drain of overcasting, then you need Edge to pull it off. Since low magic mages are more capped in the amount of Force they can throw, they'll be relying on Edge more often.

And once again, our experiences diverge. Can they do so? YES. Is it absolutely a necessity? NO.

When my current character needs to have a Mental Manipulation spell to succeed, I only need it to do so for a few seconds. A single Net Success gives me one Whole turn to improvise and adapt. A lot can be accomplished in those 3 seconds. The character also has other team mates that have options as well. He is am not a one man army. And he does not need to be. Interestingly enough, the character only has 1 Mental Manipulation Spell, and No combat Spells, so, as you can guess, he steers away from Big Explosions and massive spells of Death (I have a gun for such nonsense), and generally has more in the way of options than a typical mage may have. Guess What. He has Magic of 2 (finally checked the character sheet), so he has a range of Force 1-4 for effects. I find that quite plenty in the face of things.

Answer me this one Cain. How many hits can you expect to get with a Willpower of 5 (Less Willpower means more successful generally)? One, sometimes two, on average. Now, How many successes can you expect to get with a Casting pool of 10? 3, Sometimes 4, on average. Seems the mage has the target beat by 1 to 2 Successes on a Force 3 Spell. ON AVERAGE. So, WHY, Exactly, should I spend Edge to bypass the cap? Will that spell fail ocassionally? Sure. But a Force 6 Spell can fail ocassionally as well. Why exactly should I sweat it? Does Counterspelling and Magic Resistance take a toll? Of course it does. Does a Background count cause Issues (Yes, Our GM uses Background Count, thoguh it is only rarely above a 1)? Of course it does. I am okay with that. That is why I have other abilities to back myself up with.

It is my guess that you want to completely remove any possibility of failure, thus you have your mages cast as high as they can, and then spend Edge to guarantee an outcome. Guess what. That is not MY goal here. I often have characters with 1-3 Edge, and rarely, if ever spend it. Your assumptions about the game as a whole are interesting, and you often have great points, but please do not assume that everyone plays as you do. Just wanted to point that out.

And Yes, I know the table I currently play at is atypical, but your comments seem to suggest that we do it wrong. I am sorry, but I will always disagree with you on this point. You can have an effective Magician with a Magic Attribute of 1-3, and still get by quite well in the game. I know, because I often do so.

Anyways...

TJ, stop it. We all got it that you on principle don't agree with Cain, ok? Just. Stop. It.

Tips for resisting drain: roll 12 dice. I've been fooling with an elf shaman with charisma 7, will 5. Also get some stim patches just in case.
Synergy: for same concept, influence group is awesome with cha 7
Magic type skills: despite arguments for and against ritual spellcasting, i like to take it at level 1 on principal. Also, don't neglect spirits. Spirits of man are great. Nothing like having a spirit sustain/cast spells for you. Also, assensing 1 (at least) is important.
Other: mentor spirits are a great investment at 5bp, and can help to conceptualize character. Others may not agree but i just default for pilot skills and shooting, and keep gear to a bare minimum to save bp/cash. I run with a taser as backup weapon instead of a pistol. That also saves me the cost of a fake firearm license and the risk of a restricted pistol. I could also get synergy there with the pacifist quality and stun spells. Also, dont forget non-ni matrix access: commlink, ar gloves, contact lenses with image link. Edit: or just trodes.

I dunno why you'd bother, though. Just get trodes, like everyone else. Cheaper, better.

Trodes are neural interface aren't they? Does that make me more or less susceptible/vulnerable to hacking? (don't know the wireless world well at all). I've avoided anything ni so far.

Well, *you* can't be hacked, unless you're a machine. But they do free up your hands, let you mentally control all your gear, 'telepathic' chat, access AR, etc. Buy 3, for backups. If you're not the hacker, you wouldn't be in cybercombat or dealing with Black IC anyway. You don't have to use VR at all.