Agreed. Mages don't use sight to determine the coordinates of their target and cast at those coordinates. They use sight to form a magical link with the target, and cast their spell through that.

At least for direct combat spells. If it's indirect, I feel he can fudge it by looking at the character through anything he wants and saying, "I cast in that direction".

That completely doesn't jibe with the description of how Indirect Spells work.
Even AREA effect indirect spells require you to be able to see the center of the area you want to effect. You have to form a mystic link. It's not a bullet that goes in a straight line from where you are pointing.

To Each his own I guess... The books never say HOW that link is created, you are making an assumption, at best. They use "Line of Sight" because it is a common term that everyone is familiar with. What they DO say is that you cannot TARGET with Augmented Sight unless it is paid for with/by Essence. However, you are not using the Flare Compensation to Target a spell. It is not a Mode of Sight, as it were, like Thermographic or Lowlight.

Anyways...

I guess. I forgot that indirect spells travel along the mystic link like a guideline.

As for flare comp. Tymaeus has a point, I guess it isn't really an electronic feed, so no problem.

You can't target just an aura, unless you're ritual spellcasting apparently (I hate rituals so much).
"auras alone cannot be
targeted" SR4A 183

You can only target an aura in a ritual if you have something that creates a link.

Some blood, some skin, his favorite teddy bear, etc.

I was talking about spotters. Just basic core book spotters.

"The spotter must be present in
the lodge when the ritual begins, and then must travel physically or
astrally to where she can assense the target of the spell. The target does
not have to be astrally active (and it’s often safer for the spotter if she
isn’t); the spotter must just be able to assense him."SR4A 185

Gah.. I forgot that part. That's so unfair. You can ritually cast mana bolt on some guy who isn't even awakened? That's a frightening level of assassination.

Motion for mage to be synonymous with dick?

Motion sustained.

We have set a precedent.

He said assess, not assense.

I didn't notice that.

Can't access your link, I'm afraid. My OS believes that dA is infected with the Conficker virus or something similar.

I am fairly sure that i is supposed to be a u

It was just my favorite picture of Robert Muldoon from Jurassic Park saying "Clever Girl".

OBJECTION!!!

Mages are no more dicks than a Street Sammy with MBW 2 (which you can get at Chargen). Yes that mage might be able to get him, but with Genewipe you can't get a good enough ritual link to the Sammy... Good luck trying to kill him when he can shoot back... with MUCH bigger guns.

I've yet to meet a shadowrunning team that I couldn't kill or at least maim with a good rigger team. The really hard part is getting the possession mage to sit still long enough to hit him with a truck.

I'm building one right now, but for some reason hackers don't provoke the same emotions in me that awakened characters do. Probably because a mage is born with his power, you can't learn it. A rigger, on the other hand, practiced. Any one killed by the rigger just didn't invest enough time in their profession of choice, or were unlucky, or just played stupidly. There's no genetic barrier like: the rigger won because he's an Aryan.


HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHA!


MBW 2?

Genewipe doesn't make pictures or used coffee mugs disintegrate. Also, I don't know whether it works against preservation spells. I'd like to argue that the rules for genewipe say your genes decompose within 5 minutes irrevocably. Then again, that's just speeding up a process that would be completely prevented by the spell. Opinions?

I hate it when Yerameyahu says this, but he's got a point: the mage can shoot you with the same guns you use to shoot him. He's not spending that nuYen anywhere else.
Also, a starting mage can overcast his spells to get a higher DV than any handheld weapon in the entire game. He then proceeds to get stronger.

The description of the Preserve spell says "The material’s rate of decomposition is reduced by a factor equal to the number of hits scored; 4 hits would preserve a substance for 4 times as long as it would normally last."

In this context, I would understand "normally" as "when no spell is cast" and not "when no spell is cast and no genetic treatment is applied". Just one opinion though.

So, 20 minutes for 4 hits then? Odd, I thought there was a spell that completely halted aging of substances. Just goes to show that it's true magic is more powerful when no one understands it.

Re-reading it, control actions is the only one that explicitly says this ("when not directly controlled, the victim may act as normal"). I guess that's why control thoughts has Drain 2 points higher.

Move-by-Wire 2.

That and the -Willpower penalty they have when controlling your actions to do stuff you don't want to do.

(Whoops, wrong thread.)

I would like to know where I mentioned an aura.

Don't mind him, he's learning.

That phrase is referring to the fact that you can't target physical objects from the astral, longbowrocks. That is, auras are visible on the astral plane, but they're not 'present'… so they can't be targeted. I know I already told you this in the other thread.

Patience, Yerameyahu... He is still learning. Remember?

It seems like a logical way to look at things. In fact, it doesn't break the game, but rather prevents mages from breaking the game by using assensing in a way its not meant to be used. All in all, feels like RAI to me. It also sounds like RAW, unless someone has a more relevant excerpt.

• A typical mystical link is formed through perception of a target, not knowledge of the target's location.
• Assensing an aura on the astral plane, which is no different than an aura on the physical plane, will allow you to target and enemy.

Therefore you cannot target physical enemies with astral perception. Q.E.D.

• "A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision."
• "Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight."

Therefore you cannot target physical enemies with astral perception. Q.E.D.

*edit: removed code tags. They aren't being very helpful right now.

Except the rules are explicit that you can, in multiple places. The clearest, classic example—but hardly the only one—is that blind magicians (e.g. ghouls) can cast spells using their astral sense. Don't you QED at us.

The difference is being on the same plane. If you're both on the physical, seeing their aura *is* seeing them (if anything, it's more real, metaphysically). The issue is casting across planes. It's like there's a big sheet of glass 'under' the astral: you can see auras on the physical, but you can't reach them.

If you don't mind me asking; where are the multiple places? I won't argue that they can cast on the astral plane using astral senses, but I don't see anything about it either way in RC.


I thought this might be covered under blindness in RC, but no such luck. I do find it odd that they confirm that blindness does not inhibit astral perception (no one would expect it to), but neglect to mention anything about physical casting (which readers would ask at this point).
"Note that since their astral perception is not a visual sense, Awakened characters with the Blind quality may
still perceive astrally, though gamemasters are advised to strictly
apply the Astral Visibility modifiers on p. 114 of Street Magic."

I can see this partially supporting your side, but the opening of this paragraph clearly states that it pertains to the astral realm.
"Determining cover works the same way on the astral
plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and
insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting.
Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world
(like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell
targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical
shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura."


A character using astral perception is active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously. However, they cannot target both simultaneously. They need to spend a simple action to switch their perception between planes.

If you can be attacked on both planes simultaneously, it would make sense that you could attack on both planes simultaneously, since there is something physically there to attack with. All you need to do is glue on some nasty astrally active daggers and sprint around wildly as you attack on the physical plane. The issue with magic is that you need to forma mystical link, which cannot be done without perceiving your target's body (astral or physical).

There are several old threads on this exact issue (I dunno how you keep doing this in unrelated threads! ), but I'll be brief.

The simplest point is this one, directly from the specific rules on targeting spells: … There's really no argument possible after that.

This bit is wrong, by the way: As you see above, they *can* do both. 'Shifting perception' is actually just turning astral sense on or off. The sense itself is still *dual* (as in 'Dual-Natured', when you're doing it from a physical body). So, your confusion was based on an incorrect proposition. Glad to help.

Taken with a grain of salt since the following implies that an astrally perceiving character can cast spells at characters in in the physical or astral realm willy-nilly, which we both know is false since you need a simple action to switch.
"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space."
I don't think the writers ever expected someone to be so desperate that he would attempt to replace physical sight with assensing for casting on the physical plane.


This incorrect proposition is about as prolific as sliced bread, and goes way beyond prepositions.

I thought that only applied to things that aren't fulltime dual-nature like ghouls and shape shifters.

Magicians are full-time dual-natured. I don't know if they have a specific core rule set for dual natured critters and the like when it comes to astral perception.

*edit: nevermind. I really thought I heard someone complaining about other characters being able to snipe mages at any time through the astral plane, but I guess I misremembered.

Magicians aren't full-time dual-natured. They only become dual-natured when they turn on astral perception.

An astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules.

An astrally projecting magician can only cast spells at astral targets (including dual-natured targets, including astrally perceiving magicians).

A character can spend a simple action to "turn on" astral perception, at which point they see the astral plane but remain active in the physical plane, thus becoming dual-natured. The character may spend a simple action to "turn off" astral perception, at which point they lose their dual-natured status and stop perceiving astrally.

As stated explicitly in the rules, which I quoted above, it is not possible to see the astral and physical planes at the same time. It takes a simple action to switch.

Again, no. What you call 'willy-nilly isn't just implied, it's explicitly stated in the targeting rules (this phrase is really fun!). The 'switching' you're referring to is switching between astral sense and physical senses; astral sense effectively works in both. I'm not trying to be mean or anything (I've even argued that astral perception targeting on the physical *shouldn't* be the rules), but this is a core concept in the magic system.

I don't see what's unclear about my earlier quote: astral perceiving = spells on physical or astral.

This explicitly states that an astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical targets.

What it says above that:



This restriction only applies to a magician in astral space. Not to an astrally perceiving one.

Physical space: target things in physical space.
Astral space: target things in astral space.
Astrally perceiving (dual-natured): either.

The rules are fairly clear on this.

When all else fails, just pull what The Engineer suggests: Add more gun.

I'm not trying to be mean either, but I'm saying that this supersedes that.

One of the core rules of the magic system is "that which you cannot perceive, you cannot cast on". IIRC, we were arguing about what constitutes "perception" in this context based on the rules for magic.
However, the book is clearly saying that you cannot perceive on both planes simultaneously this case, and therefore you cannot cast on both planes simultaneously. We've even gone over this before, although then it was more along the lines of: "can a single area spell hit both astral and physical targets".

How could that possibly supersede the exact rule in the spell targeting section that says 'yes, astrally perceiving definitely can cast at either'?

And it doesn't say that. You're ignoring the end of that sentence, for one thing. Astral perception works just fine for most physical things. You can't use your physical senses at the same time; you can't 'physically see'. But you don't need to.

Now, there are definitely times when this matters. For one, glass is opaque to astral perception, so physical sight is the only way to go if there's glass there. This means you'd have to switch astral off, because you can't use physical sight while it's active. As you said, you can't sense both astrally and physically at once (except, of course, 'real' Dual-Natured's with physical senses).

Because it doesn't mention whether he has the choice of either simultaneously. This may seem like grasping at straws, but if we don't look at it that way, then there are two rules quite blatantly conflicting with one another.

I had the whole thing there in my first post quoting this, but I removed most of it in order to just get the important bits when I copied it into a new post since it no one appeared to have noticed it.
It says "almost everything", probably meaning more static things like trees, rocks, and buildings; not people, moving vehicles, and bullets.
In fact, it precisely states that these are things on the physical plane being reflected on the astral, and it has already been established that mundanes cannot be seen on the astral, only their auras. Thus, it isn't the same as seeing the physical and astral at the same time.

Kinda responded to this above, but it feels rude to just leave part of your post hanging. The glass thing is true, but assuming you were targeting a person on the physical plane, you'd have to switch off astral perception anyway.

Not at all (and, you can't assume your conclusion as a premise in your argument—there's even a fancy Latin name for that. ).

Because, guess: "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space." There are no two ways about this (yuk yuk ). It says 'astrally perceiving' and 'physical world'. It doesn't say, 'an astrally perceiving mage can *stop* astrally perceiving and then cast spells on the physical using his physical sense'. You're right, it does seem like grasping at straws to argue otherwise. It doesn't need to say 'simultaneously' because it specifically says both are options *while* astrally perceiving.

Probably should read all the rules instead of selecting one or two instances and then basing your interpretation of magical targeting on them.

Start with the Targeting section in SR4A p, 183, The basic rules about targeting things with spells.

Final Paragraph is of interest.

"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence."

1. Magician not using Astral Perception, nor astrally projecting. "A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world."

2.Magician astrally projecting. "Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted)."

3. Magician astrally perceiving "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. "

These are core rules, in the core section on targeting with spells.

While the first paragraph focuses on natural vision, and non electronic vision, there remains the question of what Assensing is. It's a Psychic sense, not one of the normal physical senses, and is covered elsewhere in the book. We also know from else where that "normal" senses do not work very well in astral space, Astral Perception, Assensing is used for targeting purposes. We can see the final paragraph of the targeting rules for spells covers these scenarios.

Actually, the only rule that matters is the one that says you can cast at either physical or astral targets while you're astrally perceiving.

You're writing in a whole other category of perception that doesn't exist, some sort of dual state where your astral perception is on but then you're switched over to view only the physical.

That category doesn't exist in the rules. You can either astrally perceive or not. When you turn on astral perception, you can cast at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. When you turn it off you can only cast at physical targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. When you astrally project, you can only cast at astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. There's nothing in between any two of those categories.

this was a post, and will be a post. reading above posts now...

No, your argument is specious.

Now, you can make a case for being unable to target things that you can't see with astral perception while your astral perception is switched on. I'm just not entirely certain what those would be.

Just one thing. How does an eyeballess awakened being who can only astrally perceive, but is materialized cast a physical spell or use a physical power? Which is the vast majority of paracritters and all spirits. Regardless of the shifting perceptions rule, they all percieve astrally, and target physical spells and powers that affect the mundane plane?

That's if you are going to go the route of some other rule somewhere else overriding the base targeting rules commonly accepted meanings, you may want to consider all those poor spirits.

Things behind glass, Epicedion. Not that glass isn't all one-way in SR anyway.

True, but that's just because the glass is astrally opaque. You can't see things behind walls, either, so that's not special. I was more considering things that literally don't have any astral presence, but I can't think of anything like that offhand.

This is back to the original argument. You can't see a person's physical body when astral perception is turned on. You can see auras. You cannot target just an aura, so you can't target the person himself.
Assuming you can cast on both the physical plane and astral plane at once, you will first need to discern whether your target is inhabiting the physical or astral plane, since spells cannot be dual natured.

As for things that would be invisible on the astral plane, I can't think of anything either. Maybe a mana void, or its contents?