Actually, this particular statement is almost precisely backwards. According to books like Street Magic Astral Perception tends to be concentrated on living things first and foremost and what living things pay attention to second. Things with emotional resonance or that are frequently used by metahumans have a symbolic importance that makes them much easier to spot than say, a stray chunk of loose gravel.

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind. I guess I was basing that logic off the Fade from Dragon Age, since you can't see people on the astral plane, even though people are a major source of its makeup.

… when astrally projecting.

'night guys. I'll bug you about rules again tomorrow. Maybe in a different thread since we've hijacked this one completely.

When astrally perceiving, you do pick up data from the physical world, since everything casts a shadow, both living and nonliving things. It's like a colorblind person being able to distinguish between colors, not because he sees reds and blues, but because he can tell the difference in shades of brown or grey.

What's extra irritating, is that they imply that you can use astral senses to target people, the LOS Targeting rules specifically say that all visual modifiers apply when trying to target someone for a spell.

It's a pain in the ass. There's contradictions everywhere, and with 1 interpretations Ghouls cant' cast spells, in the other, Astral Sensing is like the super-awesome, why would you use anything else perception of win.

Never really had any issues with it personally.

This is why:

Yeah: physical vision uses physical Visibility mods, astral perception uses Astral Visibility mods.

Where are these Astral Visibility mods
I've never seen one in any of the books I've read.

I believe you can find them in Street Magic, p. 114

so modifiers for a key core ability are in a splat book? That's.. awesome.

It's the core magic book, actually, I find it hard to belief you've never read it. In 'any of the books' you *have* read… there are only like 6 or so. I mean, if you're not using Street Magic, you're not even using Background Count, facrissake.

Several of the 'physical' modifiers also apply to Astral, AFAIK: Distracted -2, Interference -2, possibly the distance mods, etc. (and some of the bonuses, probably).

Street Magic's the one main book I haven't read cover to cover :0
Mostly cause I hate playing Magic characters.

I think Cover used to apply to spellcasting as a visibility-style penalty, although they revamped the Cover rules later.

Astral Perception *is* a power. It's a benefit, and it should be beneficial. It does have its own unique limitations (LOS limits it versus hearing, for example), including the fact that you're a sitting target on the astral. Magic has always been the counter to magic, so send a random spirit to bother the mage if his super-vision is too annoying.

Yes, the page I've been quoting

Using Magic to Counter Magic... Now that is a revolutionary concept...

This limitation however is not explicitly stated. Vision is only used as an analog, since none of us has actually experienced astral perception. There are also characters who experience it more like other senses (especially blind people).

Exactly... Apparently, though, many people have latched onto this idea and stick with it. It does not really help that Astral Visibility Modifiers, and some of the conditions of Normal Visibility Modifiers, affects the Assensing Test.

At that point, it quickly becomes written in stone that Astral Perception is "Sight" for all intents and purposes.

This is why I use a fair ammount of synethesia to describe Astral sensing. It helps people get out of the sight framework a bit. But it's still rough, either way.

The LOS limits of astral sense *are* explicitly stated. They go on and on about how things are astrally-opaque.

That's always been the central issue with astral sense in SR4: it's *not* sight, but it definitely has LOS limits. It definitely doesn't work through walls (or glass), like physical hearing, or around corners, like physical smell.

No Doubt, this is very true. But since Blind People can use Astral Perception, it is NOT sight, as you indicated above. As was said earlier, this is just the closest thing that we, as humans, can relate to. Humans do not typically target by Hearing or Smell, so ascribing a correspondence to them is rather pointless, but since Astral Perception does not employ actual Sight as a sense, it causes some issues in the verisimilitude department.

It is an interesting Connundrum.

I didn't realize we were only talking about targeting; that's a pity, because you use your perception for a lot more than that. I only wanted to reiterate that, whatever astral sense is, it has LOS limits. We know that for sure, 100%. It is a sense that works in all directions, but stops when it 'hits' any object (and is impeded by things like FAB 'smoke', some BC, etc.).

The simplest concept, for me, is a simplistic 'magic active sonar'. I know there's no ping, but it's basically omni-directional + direct LOS. I just wish we knew what the max range was.

Yeah, I know... Perception is a valuable thing... AS for the LOS Limits, well, you have to use something for a baseline, and Sight is what we use for such things. Not a perfect solution. I guess you could design something that would work, but we would have no real concept of functionality for a sense that is outside of our current purview. As well, it may introduce some insanities to what is a fairly simple concept. In the end, I am content to use "Sight" as the paradigm, as given in the books, even if it is not really "Sight."

Well, the maximum range for LOS is... LOS... IF you can "see them" then they are inside of your LOS.

Regarding the "omni-directional" aspect of Astral Sight, I can't help thinking that if the authors were thinking it that way, they would have written down somewhere that assensing mages and adepts, spirits, ghouls and dual-natured entities at large can not be taken by surprise under nearly any circumstance.

Eyeband gives you 360 degree vision, but -2 to perception tests. So if anything, omnidirectional 'sight' would hinder your perception.

I would assume that your Astral Sight would be similar to whatever your brain was used to processing. People tend to focus in a particular area of their sight even though they have a much wider cone of vision. I would assume the same would apply Astrally. If you are used to looking in only one direction at once due to your brain wiring you wouldn't be able to perceive omnidirectionally without giving yourself major issues.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave.....

Since Shadowrun doesn't know a system of facing, any and all perception is omnidirectional.

Except it's magic. All we know is that the *eyeband* has that penalty… and that astral perception *probably* doesn't, or they'd have mentioned it. Astral perception does have that -2 to physical activities penalty; seems fair. (As we know, the eyeband is a worthless 'flavor' item. The SURGE version similarly mentions nothing about surprise, or indeed any crunch use at all for this 'bonus'.)

Nath, the book basically has no rules for 'where you're looking' with even normal vision (there's the Distracted -2 that I mentioned earlier). What makes you think it makes you 'immune to surprise'? Hell, the surprise rules barely mention anything like a 'didn't see them' requirement; they're very (almost uselessly, for me) abstract.

Perception is omni-directional in the real world, just not all of our senses. Touch is omnidirectional since skin is all over our body. Smell and taste have preferred sectors of sense, but can receive data from any direction. Since astral perception is a psychic sense that is interpreted via regular senses, it too would be omnidirectional.

That isn't strictly true. If you are looking at something you must be focused on it. Therefore you are distracted and not observing other directions (and suffer a dice pool modifier to Perception). The only time you are actually observing omnidirectionally is when you take the observe in detail action since that is when you are not distracted by being focused on something.

Just to be picky: isn't Observe in Detail *exactly* when you're focused on something?

But, being distracted (-2) isn't the same as literally being unable to sense in all directions. It's a (moderate/small) penalty, that's all.

In any case, yes: no senses in SR4 have 'facing' rules, because all perception is abstract. Use the existing penalties as appropriate.

From the name you would think so. The point was more to illustrate that you are actually looking at things and not in fact perceiving it all perfectly simultaneously.

Shadowrun 20th Anniversary introduced the "Defender unaware of attack" Defense Modifier, resulting in no defense roll, independently from Surprise effect. The Modifier description reads "If the defender is unaware of the attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat."

It is assumed that if a defender is already in combat, he is paying attention to his surrounding.

I know I would be

The sympathetic nervous system has already been initialized.

I agree, Nath, but that's all GM-fiat. It relies on the player admitting that he's looking elsewhere, or the GM deciding it. It's also not a Surprise, which is a wonky Initiative comparison test. I guess you meant 'surprise situation' instead of 'SR4 Surprise test', sorry for my confusion. I agree that 360 Vision, Eyeband, or Astral Perception are all good (if fluffy) arguments the ambush-ee can use to argue with the GM about it.

It isn't that the character doesn't necessarily 'see' or 'perceive' the assailant; it is that they aren't expecting the attack. Whether that is a teammate stabbing them with a shiv or a masseuse trying to snap their neck during a massage.

All that said, if your PC's are getting too powerful, it's perfectly appropriate to have some bad-guys sneak-up on them and sucker-punch them. While the PC's should get a perception check to sense the attack, even if coming from behind, there's nothing said that the GM can't roll it in secret. (which is another reason why you should write-down a few key numbers from the PC's sheets)

This is especially great if you're distracting both the real-life players and the PC's in-game with something interesting. Negotiating with a fence, for example.

Or getting shelled while you are inside a tent

Intertial Triggers fix this problem. For hella cheap, too. Go arsenal!

… huh?

There seems to be some confusion about your post Udoshi. Would you mind clarifying how Inertial Triggers apply to Perception. Because, apparently, I am not seeing it.

They're able to automatically change node settings when they detect movement.
Headband perception penalties only apply when the user is in motion.

So for 25 nuyen, you get the best of both worlds. Full coverage when you're not moving, no penalties when you are.

So, how does changing your "node settings" remove the penalties for movement? I still don't see that. At best, it just shuts off 360 degree sight. It is more a security device, best used as a trigger for explosives or other such nastiness.

Eyeband gives a -2 when using 360 degree vision and in motion. It gives no penalties when you stop moving or when in "normal vision" mode. Use the inertial trigger to put the eyeband in 360 mode when you're not moving and in normal mode when you are. Voila!

Oh. Jeez. I dunno if I'd call it fixing the problem, because you're still losing the whole point of having the eyeband. Also, considering how often you're in motion, that amounts to an Observe in Detail.

You still get the increased slots for the headband though.