Any new gear fabricated out of thin-air is house-ruled gear. If I put forward a totally new plain-jane SA Light Pistol, regardless of how consistent it is with other Light Pistols, that's still house-ruled gear fabricated independent of existing rules. All they say is "Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns." There's no talk about "hey, make your own using the vindicator as a template." The only line in question is a restriction, not a prescription, that just sits there at the end of the panel coming out of nowhere. If you want to spit out some new gear to fill the now obvious hole, I'm right there with you, but I'm still gonna have to pitch it to the GM as a house rule that I just eye-balled together.

Again, I'm arguing that the only two weapon "construction" rules on the books are vestigial rules with no active bearing on the game, but if you want to say that they are there with an actual purpose regarding new guns, then that only gives weight to the argument that they are "construction" and not Modification rules. Either way, HV mods for LMGs etc are legit.


The autocannons aren't described as minigun-like. They say "Use the rules for miniguns." By a strict reading, that means they can't exist. But there's no point in pulling the the "construction" rules back in. I'm just applying the same logic to the Modification rules. The HV modification gives its own restrictions and then turns the applicable firearm into an HV weapon, and then references the rules for HV weapons. I didn't pull in the minigun construction rules through a backdoor, and I'm not about to do the same to the Modification rules which already have their own restriction sets.

1. My point there was that your game balance concerns would lie in the territory of house rules since there is no minigun modification to worry about.
2. Fair enough. But favouring limitation in any ambiguous situation is a commitment to preference that I don't share. I just think in this case that the only two weapon construction rules in the game serve no viable purpose and it's sloppy to try to pull one of them in through the backdoor to the Modification rules just because that increases limitations.
3. The SuperMach and the HVAR are only precedents for stock models, though. They have no explicit bearing on after-market modifications.

The point is that you are not applying Logic here Daishi... You are taking them in isolation. Such things are not fabricated out of thin air.

They tell you what to do, and you choose not to do it. There is a difference...

But No worries. In the end we apparently come to roughly the same place.

Making the "game" shadowrun entirely ridiculous. Now you can only play in the barrens or as salarymen. Congratulations. (Or you can play mages and mages, of course, at which point there will be glow-moss EVERYWHERE.)

Sorry for necroing that particular point, but the scanner just kills the game, IMHO, unless you make it quite uncommon. (E.g. house-rule it to be REALLY expensive.)

Hm... since when does a scanner stop a runner? You could have just high quality stuff, licenses for shit on fake SIN's, pre-hacked the scanner or database, asked your doc before the implantation to make it look like something else (yeah no rules for that at the moment... but come on, what gm just says NO?), bribed your way into the are or infiltrated it through other ways.

I am really not worried about a scanner.

What i am worried about is that detecting infra-structure finding all comunication-nodes which doesn't belong and patroling minibots and such.

This is virtually standard issue for many of my characters

P93 Praetor E SMG, costs 850 out of the box and has a 50 round clip. Slap Additional Clip on one and you've got basically a 100 round capacity for 1,700 nuyen. Add the obligatory smartlink and you can, as a free action, switch between the clips. For an extra 500, you can up the weapon's capacity with Extended Clip to 126 rounds. By adding Gas Vent 3, Foregrip, and a Shock Pad, you can bring the weapon up to a recoil compensation of 8.

The total cost of this is 2,700 at an Availably of 11.

If you've got some extra cash, load it up with Narcoject and Capsule rounds (A full load will cost you ~6,600). Suppressive Fire a group of guards, duck behind cover, and listen for the thumping.

Even with standard ammo, you can load this gun on a Monday and shoot it until Friday without needing to worry about reloading.

I agree. If I put players through a scanner it's a big part of the run and not a common affair. They're largely for airports and high security areas, sensitive border crossing, etc. There should also also alternatives to simply walking through it, like hacking the thing, or just avoiding the checkpoint. Also, again, sometimes you just want players getting their Matrix action on.

I love the Praetor, I really do. But it IS a very illegal military gun in most places. Don't get caught.

You could walk the fire back and forth between two targets.

This is really the only way to get two attacks on two targets in a single IP besides shotgun choke or area attacks.

It's not particularly more illegal, just harder to come by. Illegal and rare does turn heads though..

It's specifically designed and built for UN peace keeping forces. It's not just restricted, it's a *forbidden* item. Meaning it is basically impossible to carry one legally.
I will quote: "A forbidden item may never be legally purchased or owned, let alone transported or used, by a private person. Don’t get caught."

Granted, this only applies by jurisdiction. You can open carry in the barrens and no one will care. But you'd better hide that thing well if you get anywhere near decent civilization.

I meant, not particularly more illegal than any other forbidden weapon/accessory/ammo/mod/electronics. I suppose it is more innately threatening to have a forbidden gun than it is to have, say, a tag eraser.



RAW Gatling-style weaponry exists. You just have to go to Germany to get it.

Ruhrmetall R506 Balmung (MMG) Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: 0(1) Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 18F, Cost: 11,000¥

Sweet... Too bad I am not in Germany...
Oh Well... Maybe we will get an English Conversion eventually (Though I am not holding my breath)...
Nice to know that I was not all that far off...

Per RAW, the final package has an Availability of 11. That isn't forbidden or even restricted.

Seeing as how it starts at 11F, that should be some trick. The "F" in the Availability Code indicates that it is Forbidden... Which means you cannot buy it legally, nor get a license for it. Get caught with one at your own peril.

I would like like to know where you wound this wonderfull mod that lets you drop F out of the weapons original availability

There are no non-restricted guns in this game(tasers and super squirt don't count as guns)

Which means if the cops catch you you might just as well use the damn thing.

Interestingly, those codes all don't count for Corporate security or other bigger organisations, since I'm sure they carry plenty of F items around with them . Which also means you just need the right ID in practical gaming, even though you might never be legally allowed to get a license for one.

(I'm open to being disproven, but....)

This is actually pretty true. But then again, those Corporate Goons do not own the weapons (or other "F" rated items) that they use, they are likely issued them. It is a lot like the Current Military. You can carry illegal weapons, but you do not actually own them, and are only allowed to use them within the purviews of your job.

Actually having a License for an "F" rated weapon would be somewhat of a Red Flag in my opinion...

From what I can figure out, the difference between R and F is that you can buy Fake Licenses for R and civilians often have real licenses for R. Therefore R items are decently common and check out after a simple license query. Fs are noticed and have clear quide lines. I think it's a tad silly to call the military for a SMG, but I could see a SMG that only on-duty soldiers can legally use. I guess I see it as the difference between a carrying a concealed pistol with a conceal carry permit and a carrying around a M16.

While you might be able to buy "lol I'm a UCAS soldier" fake sin and license, I do think soldiers using F stuff only applies while on duty (just like soldiers in the US don't carry M16s when they shop at the local grocery store). It makes getting away with it more troublesome. Then again the legality system in SR is messed up before you reach extraterritoriality.

Aye, the point is: who you are, and who do you work for?

For example:
You can have very well a "license" to be a killer-cyborg, loaded with illegal crap and heavy weaponry and biological weapons. BUT, you are effectively PROPERTY of your corp for that. Neither the state nor other corporation will have you enter their areas. You are only aknowledged and of use on corp property.

Same with weapons: As long as you are on YOUR ground you can do whatever you want. Outfit your guards with miniguns? Sure why not. You just can't bring it into the UCAS.

Overall if you can "just" go undercover as... say a "Firewatch" member, no one on any Ares domain will question you having weapon-foci, Move-by-wire, Laser eyes and carrying a grenade launcher. Just make it SEEM legit *g* and follow protocol.

I went the other way with the Praetor as a standard. Take the Electronic Firing and Flashlight options, put in Integral Suppressor, Chameleon Coating and a Foregrip as mods, and then round it out with Smart Gun System and Cyber Safety as accessories. Y3215 and avail 12F (the Praetor is already F, so may as well take the F suppressor). If you have a Strength of 6+, that's enough to cover the recoil on two short or one long burst. It makes for a good sneaking around gun (-7 on Perception to locate the shooter) and can reasonably stashed in very useful places. Like a messenger bag or a smuggling compartment on a bike (both EM shielded to block casual scans).

A similar stealth variant of the Ares Alpha is a typical primary weapon for runs in my crew. Suppressor, Chameleon Coating, Personalized Grip for the modifications. Air Burst Link, Cyber Safety, Low Light Flashlight, Folding Stock, and (if allowed by the GM) an Underbarrel Weight.

We love the integral suppressor for its extra reduction against Perception tests (even if it does hoover mod slots), and Chameleon Coating is the norm for all our long-arms to keep the Ruthenium Polymers on our infiltration suits at full rating.

Gah! The generator I use doesnt have it listed as F

I just checked Arsenal, you're right

And you didn't find it at all weird or suspicious that an SMG had an avail of 11 with no R or F there?

That's one of the things that makes the HK-227X such a winner. Since it has an integral suppressor standard, it has more free slots for stuff like manual breakdown. If you need to get a gun in the front door, breakdown is the business.

Agreed. Manual breakdown is one of my favorite mods. For subtle firepower, I like bringing Ares Sliverguns. Sure the ammo is expensive and sucks against armor, it's still better overall than an SMGs using flechette.

And you can always mod the Slivergun with FA if you like... And Dual Clips if you really need it...

Suppressive fire in a +0 concealability package *drool*. Granted, you only get 2 IPs worth of that without improving ammo count. >_>

Indeed, but it is very nice to have a a last ditch backup...
By increasing the ammmo count of both Magazines, you can suppress for 3 IP's...

Good point. I tend to favour integral recoil (e.g. the Alpha and the Praetor) enough that I'll usually pay the mod slots for an after-market suppressor, but getting a built-in one is certainly worth considering, especially when it comes in an SMG that's only Restricted.

Manual breakdown isn't something that I usually look to as a standard option, but it is very handy for special purpose weapons. A Barret Model 121 in a backpack has lots of potential for mirth and mayhem.

Slowly going nuts. Where are the dual clips? All I can find is the one that's part of the HK PSG Enforcer. Could have sworn it was a gun mod, but I can't find it.

Offtopic. The Morrissey Élan is annoying me. It's not forbidden but it's ammo is. Grrrrr...

Edit: Thanks Tymeaus Jalynsfein. I'm less crazy now.

Page 147-148 of Arsenal. Called Additional Clip...

I know shotguns don't get much love in SR4, but for the discerning Longarms user with a decent face to get them gear, the Auto-Assault 16(arsenal28) is rather excellent with the addition of armor piercing flechettes(war 156).

the AA-16 also has the distinction of being the only shotty to come with a gasvent standard, mostly because the rules for gasvents changed between 4th and anniversary. A simple auto-adjusting weight gives you the 4 extra RC you need for long bursting.

I might recommend an additional clip for the other mod, so you can swap to long-ranged slug ammo, and a smartlink accessory.

9P ap-1 is really, really excellent at close ranges. And thats before you factor in burst fire and choke settings. With AP flechettes, Medium Spread (DV-2, AP+2 compared to regular, so 7P ap+1), starts to look a bit better. With a short wide burst, you can slap a -4 defense penalty on someone for only 3 shots, and be about as effective as a regular shotgun, and even hit two targets at once.(due to choke settings).

True.

What are you talking about I'm not aware of any rule change.

That is a very creative interpretation of the rules. The adjusting weight provides either 1 RC for the first shot or 2 RC for the second shot, or 2 RC for FA mode. Not 1+2. Don't forget to double the uncompensated recoil.

Only if you load it with one of the forbidden ammo types, my Sasha for example has a pair loaded with S&S(in hidden gun arm slides) so both ammo and guns are only restricted.
Of cource this raises an interesting question, do many of GM:s have the cops check the content of characters guns magazines after the SIN check gomes back saying they have a permit for carrying the gun.

Depends on the cops, depends on the situation.

If said officer is looking for *ANY* reason to bust the 'Runners, they might.

Of course, if they fail to find anything, there's always dropping a Streetline Special with a history they took off some punk a week ago, and hey, murder charge! Good bust for Officer Crooked.

You're misreading it. The auto-weight provides several effects.
It provides 1 point of RC for the first shot of a phase, and 2 for the second. (this effectively negates the 'first bullet is free' rule).
Weapons in FA Mode - that is, not Semi Automatic, not Burst Fire - the actual MODE you're in, which you can change around as a free action with your smartlink - get 2 RC.
You always get the benefit of the first rule, but the second doesn't apply if you're in SA or BF mode, only FA.

If you check the Full Auto rules on page 154, you'll notice that weapons in FA mode can fire short bursts (the actual text says to look at the above section, which is Burst Fire Mode).

So yeah. If you have a weapon that both FA and BF(like most SMGs), there's basically no reason to keep it set at anything but FA, because you can fire any sort of burst you want without wasting simple or free actions to change the settings.

Regarding the shotgun/gasvent comment: My phrasing was kind of off. The AA-16 stands out because it has a gasvents due to manufacturer-fu, when shotguns aren't normally allowed to take gasvents.(i ended up checking 4th, anniversary, arsenal, arsenal second printing. Shotties aren't on the list on any of them, if you're thinking of checking). This rule has recieved criticism on dumpshock in the past, because real world shotguns can and do have gasvents - i believe they may be called shotgun brakes.

Thats what i was trying to say, but kinda failed it because I was in a hurry to get to work. Hope that clears things up.

But (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it's now detectable with a MAD scanner, which gets rid of one of the Morrissey Élan's big advantages.

What I see is "A weapon firing on FA mode receives 2 points of recoil compensation.". What you're describing sounds like "A weapon firing on FA mode receives an additional 2 points of recoil compensation." As I read it, it comes across as a set of "or"s, not "and"s.

I think the general idea is 'if you're firing more bullets, the smartweight is more effective because its a steady, not stuttered stream of fire'.

The two rulings aren't mutually incompatable. One does not preclude the other. They're all seperate, discrete sentences, and there's no AND/OR/Exception text.

Why, exactly, wouldn't a full burst get an RC of 3 from the weight? Its the first shot of the phase, and its FA. That circumstance satisfies all of the rules presented.

If you're going to whine about balance, you need to consider the opportunity cost of what you're using. 4 of 6 modslots for 4 RC is actauly fairly balanced. You can get 1RC/slot for a variety of other sources(some stuff, like the sling, doesn't cost any slots at all), and there's specifically a list of which stuff doesn't work with what. The autoweight is hella good, but it also doesn't stack with the other Big Ticket recoil reducers (gyromount, tripods) because it basically is that item, just worse because its small and portable.

Well the thing is in BF or FA you don't fire shots, you fire bursts, short long or full, so the RC from the first and second shot cannot apply.

I don't whine about balance, I even always thought that the auto-adjusting weight was pretty ineffective, but I just don't see it as giving up to 4 RC with how the rule is written.

I know and I don't dispute that, I even wrote that in other threads before.

Except of course for called shots by RAW. Which can be used on BF short bursts but not on FA short bursts. Strangely whether the burst is wide or narrow has no bearing on whether you can call a shot or not.

19th Century: "One good shot is better than six bad ones."

20th Century: "Three good shots is better than thirty bad ones."

21st Century: "Empty the belt."

I need to find that chart showing average amount of rounds expended per kill in wars over the decades.




-k

Single-shot meant a heavy impetus to "One shot, one kill".

Repeater weapons took a bit away from that.

Semi-Automatic, moreso.

Full Auto in every soldier's hands... Oh man, did the brass ever start to fly!

I think it's pretty clear: 2 RC for any burst (short, long, full), 1/2 for SA. It's written badly, yes; what else is new?

If it just said flat 2 RC, it'd be basically the same, right? I'm not sure how '1 on the first shot, 2 the second' is a meaningful mechanic in the first place.

Just as meaningful as any other recoil compensator. They all give 1-x RC on the first shot, which is absolutely unnecessary since the first shot does not incur a penalty for recoil.

Exactly. Except this one (for some reason) says so.

Bah, RC isn't everything. I mean, is your Assault Rifle have all the features of the Annihilator 2000?

This would be the 'first bullet is free' mechanic i mentioned.

The second burst in a phase always has 1 more RC. Second short is -3, second long is -6 instead of -5. Full bursts don't have a second burst penalty because its not possible to fire more than one.

.... seriously, you guys don't know this by now?

THAT rule is why the auto-weight is worded as it is, because its supposed to specifically negate that penalty. With a weight, The second burst is just as accurate as the first one.

If your firing burst fire, then there is no first or second shot, only first and second burst.
So no you don't get both of those bonuses at the same time.

Recoil and (recoil comp) is always cumulative across the entire IP by the rules. If you had 2 SMG's w/ no RC and fired a short burst from each in each hand... the uncompensated recoil from the first gun, would still carry over to the second gun. But this is one of the common mistakes new players and people who don't read the rules closely make, and apply RC separately in full to each short burst.


All it's saying is if I have an automatic... and I'm firing 3 round bursts bursts it's less effective on the first short burst (long bursts need FA). Autoadjusting weight + stock for example.

Recoil is equal to number of bullets fire so far that pass -1. (do the math on the charts...this perfectly describes how the charts are done).

First 3rd burst... 3 bullets need 2 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(1) == 2
Second 3rd burst, 6 bullets need 5 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(2) == 3... so you still have a -2 penalty.

Sorry Udoshi, I don't understand your 'first is free' point. Everyone knows the first bullet doesn't count, but I don't know why you keep mentioning it. Are you saying that the the AAW *does* apply to multiple bursts, despite it saying 'shot'? Are you further saying that the writers were just trying to make both bursts similarly bad (despite Falconer's example)?

If so, it still doesn't really make sense over a nice clean '2 RC all the time', which was my question.

In the end I went with the AK-98 (old faithful). I know I could have maxed stats a little better with the ares alpha, but I use sr4a and the picture for the Alpha just looks soooo stupid. I also stayed away from smg's and machine pistols (for now) because this selection really doesn't have any concealability requirements. And as it turns out, there isn't RAW about bigger weapons in small places and my GM doesn't plan to be that detail driven.

AK-98 (RC5)

Mods:
Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Smartgun System

My biggest problem with mods was that I didn't read the smartgun/tacnet descriptions thoroughly. They did a lot of the things I was using other slots for. Additional clip, Gas3 and smartgun were all easy choices. I didn't originally add foregrip because I figured the underbarrel grenade launcher on the AK98 wouldn't allow it. In the end, I couldn't find RAW for it. If anyone has RAW for this, please holla' with a book/page ref.

Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Shock Pad, Sling
Under Slot: <Left Empty on purpose, seemed like it would overlap with foregrip/unbarrel grenade launcher>
Barrel Slot: Sound Suppressor (when equipped)
Top Slot: Flashlight: Low-Light

I was always going to take the Airburst Link and the sling. Having a Sound Supressor around is always a good idea. And I took the shock pad just for the recoil comp. The flashlight is kind of a guilty pleasure. Really like the idea of having it for total darkness scenarios. I'll even discuss converting it to have a strobe option with my GM.

Thanks to everyone for all the awesome suggestions. They were all either right on the money or pointed me in a direction to choose what I needed. Much appreciated.