Full Version: Best Assault Rifle and Accessory / Mod Combo
Shock Pads and slings aren't cumulative with each other due to the recoil restrictions listed on pg. 148 of Arsenal, so I'm afraid you're stuck at 4 recoil compensation with that setup. Since you dislike the flavor of using the Alpha, I'd suggest swapping the internal smartlink to an external one and replacing the shock pad with the dirt cheap personalized grip mod.
QUOTE (whatevs @ May 22 2011, 12:28 PM) 
AK-98 (RC5)
Mods:
Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Smartgun System
My biggest problem with mods was that I didn't read the smartgun/tacnet descriptions thoroughly. They did a lot of the things I was using other slots for. Additional clip, Gas3 and smartgun were all easy choices. I didn't originally add foregrip because I figured the underbarrel grenade launcher on the AK98 wouldn't allow it. In the end, I couldn't find RAW for it. If anyone has RAW for this, please holla' with a book/page ref.
Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Shock Pad, Sling
Under Slot: <Left Empty on purpose, seemed like it would overlap with foregrip/unbarrel grenade launcher>
Barrel Slot: Sound Suppressor (when equipped)
Top Slot: Flashlight: Low-Light
I was always going to take the Airburst Link and the sling. Having a Sound Supressor around is always a good idea. And I took the shock pad just for the recoil comp. The flashlight is kind of a guilty pleasure. Really like the idea of having it for total darkness scenarios. I'll even discuss converting it to have a strobe option with my GM.
Mods:
Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Smartgun System
My biggest problem with mods was that I didn't read the smartgun/tacnet descriptions thoroughly. They did a lot of the things I was using other slots for. Additional clip, Gas3 and smartgun were all easy choices. I didn't originally add foregrip because I figured the underbarrel grenade launcher on the AK98 wouldn't allow it. In the end, I couldn't find RAW for it. If anyone has RAW for this, please holla' with a book/page ref.
Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Shock Pad, Sling
Under Slot: <Left Empty on purpose, seemed like it would overlap with foregrip/unbarrel grenade launcher>
Barrel Slot: Sound Suppressor (when equipped)
Top Slot: Flashlight: Low-Light
I was always going to take the Airburst Link and the sling. Having a Sound Supressor around is always a good idea. And I took the shock pad just for the recoil comp. The flashlight is kind of a guilty pleasure. Really like the idea of having it for total darkness scenarios. I'll even discuss converting it to have a strobe option with my GM.
Okay point here... gas vents and suppressors are incompatible w/ each other. Not big, but if you're using the suppressor you lose 3 points of RC. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't switch between them like you can switch between fire modes. But nowhere does it say otherwise either... so talk to your GM and see how he plays it. (I tend to go with it's something you can select... as there are guns w/ both suppression and gas vent built into it like the Smartgun X)
Generally if the gun has a secondary weapon built into it. Generally I've found people don't consider it to eat up the underbarrel accessory slot... though they'll balk at adding a 2nd underbarrel weapon to the same one. But again, just make sure your GM doesn't have an issue.
Nice thing about the basic AK-97 (sans GL) is it's exceptionally easy to get and won't raise many red flags (it's the 'F' rating and obviousness of the GL which make them problematic)... and easy to throw away because of the low cost. Basic accessories to handle recoil don't add a lot...
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 22 2011, 08:16 PM)
Okay point here... gas vents and suppressors are incompatible w/ each other. Not big, but if you're using the suppressor you lose 3 points of RC. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't switch between them like you can switch between fire modes. But nowhere does it say otherwise either... so talk to your GM and see how he plays it. (I tend to go with it's something you can select... as there are guns w/ both suppression and gas vent built into it like the Smartgun X)
Actually arsenal moding section has rules for this, the gas vent must be turned of the get the benefit form the supressor taking a simple action or free if it's a smartgun.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 22 2011, 06:03 PM)
Shock Pads and slings aren't cumulative with each other due to the recoil restrictions listed on pg. 148 of Arsenal, so I'm afraid you're stuck at 4 recoil compensation with that setup. Since you dislike the flavor of using the Alpha, I'd suggest swapping the internal smartlink to an external one and replacing the shock pad with the dirt cheap personalized grip mod.
Hmm... Looking at my copy of AR (148) and it states the following:
AR148: 'Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod, foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are not cumulative with each other (except that the compensation from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall recoil compensation of 2).'
So I guess that means that I had the 5rc without the shock pad afterall. Unless the 'overall recoil compensation of 2' means that no other recoil modifiers can be added to that combination, and my Gas-Vent3 no longer applies... although that interpretation seems too strict to me.
Gas 3 = 3rc
Foregrip + Sling = 2rc
Like the idea of the personalized grip.
QUOTE (Mäx @ May 22 2011, 06:23 PM)
Actually arsenal moding section has rules for this, the gas vent must be turned of the get the benefit form the supressor taking a simple action or free if it's a smartgun.
Good to know. This is the stuff I seem to miss. Thanks.
AR 152
Here's round 2:
AK-98 (RC6)
Mods: Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip
Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Sling
Under Slot: Flashlight - Lowlight
Top Slot: External SmartGun
Barrell: Sound Supressor (when equipped)
AK-98 (RC6)
Mods: Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip
Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Sling
Under Slot: Flashlight - Lowlight
Top Slot: External SmartGun
Barrell: Sound Supressor (when equipped)
Makes sense. Qick question: is the tacnet software anywhere in chummer? Did i miss it?
QUOTE (whatevs @ May 22 2011, 11:26 PM)
Makes sense. Qick question: is the tacnet software anywhere in chummer? Did i miss it?
Unwired page 124-->
I can't speak as to what would be 'best', but if your game is Pink Mohawk enough for it, I can attest that an underbarrel bola launcher + a monfilament bola = a lot of fun. 
~R~
~R~
Totally forgot about those. Win. Except for the (IIRC) exotic ranged weapon requirement.
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 22 2011, 03:54 PM)
Totally forgot about those. Win. Except for the (IIRC) exotic ranged weapon requirement.
Honestly, for a monofilament bola, net hits really aren't that important. Defaulting to agility (hopefully high) will more than get the job done. That's how my ganger character did it anyway, it's more 'street' that way.
Just don't glitch.
~R~
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 22 2011, 04:20 PM)
Recoil and (recoil comp) is always cumulative across the entire IP by the rules. If you had 2 SMG's w/ no RC and fired a short burst from each in each hand... the uncompensated recoil from the first gun, would still carry over to the second gun. But this is one of the common mistakes new players and people who don't read the rules closely make, and apply RC separately in full to each short burst.
All it's saying is if I have an automatic... and I'm firing 3 round bursts bursts it's less effective on the first short burst (long bursts need FA). Autoadjusting weight + stock for example.
Recoil is equal to number of bullets fire so far that pass -1. (do the math on the charts...this perfectly describes how the charts are done).
First 3rd burst... 3 bullets need 2 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(1) == 2
Second 3rd burst, 6 bullets need 5 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(2) == 3... so you still have a -2 penalty.
All it's saying is if I have an automatic... and I'm firing 3 round bursts bursts it's less effective on the first short burst (long bursts need FA). Autoadjusting weight + stock for example.
Recoil is equal to number of bullets fire so far that pass -1. (do the math on the charts...this perfectly describes how the charts are done).
First 3rd burst... 3 bullets need 2 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(1) == 2
Second 3rd burst, 6 bullets need 5 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(2) == 3... so you still have a -2 penalty.
While I think you're probably right about this, it's still a shoddy system, and I can understand where the confusion comes from.
I, for instance, would be inclined to read it like this:
First burst: Stock +weight=2; No Recoil penalty.
Second burst, totalling previous recoil to 0 and removing previously used stuff: Just the weight again for 2, because it says so, resulting in a -1 penalty. At least that way you get a total of 3 points for the ridiculous number of mod slots this thing takes.
They should have stuck just totalling the RC and ticking it off while you are shooting.
While we have this lovely gun thread here, what's the deal with the HK-227X and the Ingram Smartgun X? It looks to me as though the Ingram comes with a lot more nice toys on it, and for 
150 less than the HK, I don't understand why you wouldn't rather have the Ingram if you want an SMG for discreet operations.
150 less than the HK, I don't understand why you wouldn't rather have the Ingram if you want an SMG for discreet operations.
Yeah, because nothing says "Discrete" like a hail of bullets. 
QUOTE (whatevs @ May 22 2011, 12:30 PM)
So I guess that means that I had the 5rc without the shock pad afterall.
Yeah, I was just skimming, tbh. I saw Shockpad+sling and my brain said "No go" but didn't otherwise check your math. Oops.
QUOTE (Loch @ May 22 2011, 04:42 PM)
While we have this lovely gun thread here, what's the deal with the HK-227X and the Ingram Smartgun X? It looks to me as though the Ingram comes with a lot more nice toys on it, and for 150 less than the HK, I don't understand why you wouldn't rather have the Ingram if you want an SMG for discreet operations.
150 less than the HK, I don't understand why you wouldn't rather have the Ingram if you want an SMG for discreet operations.Because "a lot" is an exaggeration; all it has over the 227-X is a gas vent 2 system that many people would replace with a Gas Vent 3 and a magazine that holds 4 more rounds than that of the 227-X. Unfortunately, however, the Ingram isn't capable of semi-automatic fire and thus it's tougher to conserve ammo or limit recoil than it is with a GV3 accessorized 227-X. So as far as corebook SMGs go, the 227-X is actually most flexible SMG available. The Praetor from Arsenal beats either gun in a head-on comparison once fully tricked out but it lacks a smartlink and has an 11F Availability, so quickly replacing an accessorized one is trickier. Now, if you want to talk about SMGs that don't have a reason to live, I'd point to the Ingram Warrior-10; it costs the same as an AK-97 Carbine but lacks the Full Auto or detachable folding stock.
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 22 2011, 06:16 PM)
Nice thing about the basic AK-97 (sans GL) is it's exceptionally easy to get and won't raise many red flags (it's the 'F' rating and obviousness of the GL which make them problematic)... and easy to throw away because of the low cost. Basic accessories to handle recoil don't add a lot...
This weapon selection was more about what I'd want to use if I was on an out and out raid, where I didn't have to worry about availability/concealability/deniability. You make a great point though. I put together a ak97 build that was half the cost (1400 total), with only detachable accessories, so I could remove them if I really wanted to ditch the gun. I lost out on a few things by doing it (additional clip mod, flashlight, sound supressor, gl), but I kept 5rc and basically had a disposable weapon.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 22 2011, 09:59 PM)
Because "a lot" is an exaggeration; all it has over the 227-X is a gas vent 2 system that many people would replace with a Gas Vent 3 and a magazine that holds 4 more rounds than that of the 227-X. Unfortunately, however, the Ingram isn't capable of semi-automatic fire and thus it's tougher to conserve ammo or limit recoil than it is with a GV3 accessorized 227-X. So as far as corebook SMGs go, the 227-X is actually most flexible SMG available. The Praetor from Arsenal beats either gun in a head-on comparison once fully tricked out but it lacks a smartlink and has an 11F Availability, so quickly replacing an accessorized one is trickier. Now, if you want to talk about SMGs that don't have a reason to live, I'd point to the Ingram Warrior-10; it costs the same as an AK-97 Carbine but lacks the Full Auto or detachable folding stock.
For some reason, I never thought much about the HK 227-X. I'm not sure it's better than the Ingram Smartgun X though. For 150Y and 4 less rounds in a clip, you get a SA firing mode. Since automatic fire is where it's at in SR, BF is better or as good than SA in almost all cases due to wide bursts. Off the shelf the Ingram is better, but who uses off the shelf firearms anyways?
Overall though, the Praetor is the best SMG until you get the 11 RC for a Supermach 100. Stick and Shocks don't care about base DV of your firearm, but they do care about a second long burst per IP.
I Like the unmodified Ingram Smartgun X... Its cheap, effective and is the Street Samurai's Best Friend. 
a) it is not an assault rifle and b) it gets even better with mods.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 23 2011, 10:02 AM)
a) it is not an assault rifle and b) it gets even better with mods.
True... Not sure how we ended up with an SMG in an AR Thread, but there you go...
Whatever. People demonstrably quit caring about just assault rifles by the second post, and that probably goes double since the OP picked out his AR. Anyway, overall, I'd call the Smartgun X or the Praetor my favorite SMG. But if I'm going to install a GV3 anyway a 3rd firing mode for 150 nuyen is kinda nice. After all, with 3 passes a Samurai can expect to burn through a magazine by the end of their second combat turn if limited to short bursts and my GM doesn't really run ammo spigot type games.
I love Ingram X, because they get all these cool add ons, while still having 6 modification slots. If you want to stack the goodies, the Ingram X, and the White Knight are both lovely pieces of hardware.
The best part is, they all use the same skill!
Gunnery!
-k
Gunnery!
-k
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 23 2011, 01:59 PM)
The best part is, they all use the same skill!
Gunnery!
Gunnery!
Riggers Represent!
Ballistic +2 is the best spec.
When you start rigging your own body it gets even better.
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 23 2011, 03:59 PM)
The best part is, they all use the same skill!
Gunnery!
-k
Gunnery!
-k
Well, some people have talked about militarizing the Drones I wrote up.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 23 2011, 01:12 PM)
When you start rigging your own body it gets even better.
I've frequently heard about using MBW for this. Is there an optional rule about that somewhere? Because I didn't see it in the gear description.
No, there's not. At best, it's a GM-ruled (that is, house rules) extension of the biodrone/cyberware hacking rules.
So then rigging yourself... You need to make a cluster out of your cyberware, and even then it's not actually supported?
There are a couple different combinations. The simplest is a human version of the full-VR biodrone harness. It's rare, expensive (and invasive) tech, and this is 'the book doesn't actually say it doesn't work on humans' territory. But at least there are rules for it, sort of.
Another contender is full-cyber body, and control it with the (super-vague) cyberware hacking 'rules'. Honestly, I'm not convinced you could even walk under this method, let alone 'rig' yourself. Still, it's not against the rules to move individual limbs via Issue Command, so it's at least trivially possible.
The weakest idea is the one you mentioned: that somehow having MBW lets your control the whole body. It's based on not the wired reflexes aspect, but the skillwires aspect. The idea is skillsofts can do anything, so therefore hacking skillwires must let you control everything. … Quickly, conveniently, and accurately. *shrug* This is pure house rule, IMO.
But at least there are rules for it, sort of.Another contender is full-cyber body, and control it with the (super-vague) cyberware hacking 'rules'. Honestly, I'm not convinced you could even walk under this method, let alone 'rig' yourself. Still, it's not against the rules to move individual limbs via Issue Command, so it's at least trivially possible.
The weakest idea is the one you mentioned: that somehow having MBW lets your control the whole body. It's based on not the wired reflexes aspect, but the skillwires aspect. The idea is skillsofts can do anything, so therefore hacking skillwires must let you control everything. … Quickly, conveniently, and accurately. *shrug* This is pure house rule, IMO.
Actually I meant the simple (but unattainable) way of the jarhead.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2011, 02:30 AM)
Actually I meant the simple (but unattainable) way of the jarhead.
Isn't that the Ultimate Way Of The Burnout?
QUOTE (sabs @ May 23 2011, 11:33 AM)
I love Ingram X, because they get all these cool add ons, while still having 6 modification slots. If you want to stack the goodies, the Ingram X, and the White Knight are both lovely pieces of hardware.
I want a white knight constructed as a gatling gun.
QUOTE (Faraday @ May 24 2011, 02:01 AM)
I want a white knight constructed as a gatling gun.
It's called the GE Vindicator Minigun...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2011, 03:00 PM)
It's called the GE Vindicator Minigun...
No it's not. He want's to get the GasVent 5 from the White Knight on a Minigun and still be able to mod it.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2011, 06:11 AM)
No it's not. He want's to get the GasVent 5 from the White Knight on a Minigun and still be able to mod it.
Actually, it is... Can't have GV's on a Miniguy, that is what a Gyromount is for (and better RC to boot)...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2011, 03:13 PM)
Actually, it is... Can't have GV's on a Miniguy, that is what a Gyromount is for (and better RC to boot)...
One does not exclude you from using the other. GasVents can be installed in machine guns. A machine gun constructed as a minigun does not cease to be a machine gun.So yes a White Knight constructed as a minigun has 5 RC base, combine that with a gyro mount, personalized grip, shock pad and a heavy barrel, you are only at -2 for the shot. Now not only suppressive fire is viable with an infantry minigun.
Still I'd say mount it on a steel lynx and save money
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2011, 06:27 AM)
One does not exclude you from using the other. GasVents can be installed in machine guns. A machine gun constructed as a minigun does not cease to be a machine gun.
So yes a White Knight constructed as a minigun has 5 RC base, combine that with a gyro mount, personalized grip, shock pad and a heavy barrel, you are only at -2 for the shot. Now not only suppressive fire is viable with an infantry minigun.
Still I'd say mount it on a steel lynx and save money
So yes a White Knight constructed as a minigun has 5 RC base, combine that with a gyro mount, personalized grip, shock pad and a heavy barrel, you are only at -2 for the shot. Now not only suppressive fire is viable with an infantry minigun.
Still I'd say mount it on a steel lynx and save money
Miniguns are NOT machine guns (even if they class them as such in the game)... they function on a compledtely different system.
I would squash that line of reasoning like a bug (Modding a White knight with its RC), personally.
And Yes, I would put it on a Steel Lynx as well. No recoil and Totally badass suppressive fire. An infantry man cannot carry enough ammunition for it to be truly useful.
Besides, you do not need all that crap for Infantry Use, as its only real use is going to be as a Suppressive Weapon. There is no recoil modifier for Suppressive Fire.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2011, 03:34 PM)
Miniguns are NOT machine guns (even if they class them as such in the game)... they function on a compledtely different system.
I know. Still I don't see why you couldn't a) put a gas vent on each barrel or b) put a gas vent in front of the firing barrel. The latter ould howver have the same problems as revolvers and silencers.QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2011, 03:34 PM)
I would squash that line of reasoning like a bug (Modding a White knight with its RC), personally.
Me to. I was just using RAW. The other part of RAW however is that such a weapon only exists by GM Fiat, as PCs cannot construct weapons, they can only mod. As such this beast will never see the light of day.QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2011, 03:34 PM)
And Yes, I would put it on a Steel Lynx as well. No recoil and Totally badass suppressive fire. An infantry man cannot carry enough ammunition for it to be truly useful.
Besides, you do not need all that crap for Infantry Use, as its only real use is going to be as a Suppressive Weapon. There is no recoil modifier for Suppressive Fire.
With RL suppressive fire yes, with SR suppressive fire not so much. Dropping prone makes you immune and does not hinder you from shooting back. And the minigun can't even surprise the opposition.
Besides, you do not need all that crap for Infantry Use, as its only real use is going to be as a Suppressive Weapon. There is no recoil modifier for Suppressive Fire.
Why can't I just angle my machine gun downwards 5 degrees and kill the prone guys who can now not even dodge?
QUOTE (sabs @ May 24 2011, 04:25 PM)
Why can't I just angle my machine gun downwards 5 degrees and kill the prone guys who can now not even dodge?
Because the rules say so. Also for all but very near shots (IIRC <5m) being prone is beneficial and not detrimental to the target.
Once you start directing your fire, I guess it is more like a wide burst than suppressive.
QUOTE (sabs @ May 24 2011, 05:25 PM)
Why can't I just angle my machine gun downwards 5 degrees and kill the prone guys who can now not even dodge?
You can, its called wide burst
I wonder if Trolls turn their Gatling Guns sideways when shooting them "To look cool".
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 24 2011, 02:56 PM)
I wonder if Trolls turn their Gatling Guns sideways when shooting them "To look cool".
*Shakes Head in Amazement*
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 24 2011, 03:56 PM)
I wonder if Trolls turn their Gatling Guns sideways when shooting them "To look cool".
Of course they do. Or at least the real trolls do.
Trog Life!
~R~
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2011, 09:30 AM)
Actually I meant the simple (but unattainable) way of the jarhead.
Hmmm, if only a Stirrup Interface left you with enough brains to rig yourself...
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