These are my list of 'best'. The Alpha and Praetor have free extra recoil compensation and the Ingram Smartgun comes with features that cost far more than the cost of the gun would suggest, making them great throw away weapons.

I also like the Ingram Supermach 100 and the Ares HVAR. Both of these weapons also come with free recoil compensation and high ammo capacities. They do have lower base damage, but being able to fire two long bursts generally makes up for that (for the Supermach thats 9DV/9DV in a pass vs a regualar SMG that can do 10DV/7DV). Since they don't accept much in the way of accessories you'll have to add most of your recoil compensation as modifications, but they have room.

I'm not a fan of big gyromounts unless you have a big weapon, but the wrist one is a huge bonus, get RC in excess of what you need for the rounds fired so that you can use the excess RC from the gyromount to negate running penalties.

In the world of automatics, SnS are king. You either break even or gain DV while having vastly better AP modifiers. If you aren't a SnS user (I can't blame you), then please ignore some of my comments.

Of the assault rifles, the alpha is the best. The innate recoil is the what seals the deal, but innate smartgun system and grenade launcher are great too. If you want something "legal" i.e. fake licensed, I would go with AK-97 or M23 (2 bullet larger clip for 250Y) because they are cheap and are free of the useless Gas-Vent 2 systems. Though you can argue that unless you're sticking a grenade launcher on it or badly need the range, SMGs are better than assault rifles.

For SMGs, there's a couple of prime choices. The Ingram Smartgun X is an amazing gun. Not only does it have the innate smartgun system, it also has the honor of being one of the few legal sound suppressed firearms. That alone should catch anyone's eyes. The praetor is a fine choice due to large clip size and innate recoil compensation. However the firearm I find myself using the most is the Ingram SuperMach 100.

The Ingram SuperMach 100 is one of the best SnS spamming guns out there. While not especially concealable (or quiet I would think), it's passable. In addition with careful mod sections and a cyberarm gyromount, you can get 11 RC. With that, you can do two long bursts per IP. That's 11S/11S -1/2AP which is quite nice. You can get an extended clip and that does a good job of keeping the SMG well fed (5 IPs till click).

The Executive Protector is a niche firearm, but it's a quite a nice niche. Being able to pass as a briefcase is huge. It requires a Perception (3) test to spot if you know what you're looking for. If you're not (or use a custom case if you read it that way), then you're just SOL.

I'm pretty sure that Cyberware scanner still only needs one hit to spot it like it does for all firearms.

While true, if you make cyberware scanners anyway common, you're going to end up playing Shadowrun: Where Man meets Magic and Technomancy. It causes trouble for so many concepts that you have to be a some variety of magic character or a technomancer to function. Since this is almost the case anyways, it really doesn't need any more encouragement.

Agreed. You add a cyberware scanner when you want THIS to happen.

Um. Metal detectors and things are pretty common *now*, and we don't even have dangerous cyberware. There's no reason to not use cyberware scanners as much as is appropriate: any public/corp buildings, obviously airports, many places like nightclubs, anywhere for Johnson/criminal meeting, etc.

Being too common can be a disadvantage, who really wants to check every time the things go off? My rather simple beltbuckle sets the metal detector at the post office off every time I walk through it. The most I ever get is a quick glance, they look up, see that I look like someone doing normal post officy stuff, like dropping of packages, and they go back to what they were doing.

That's true, but the cyberware scanners are smarter than 2011 tech. They check for known shapes ('ware and weapons), among other things, and can provide details: what model gun, what kind of 'ware, etc.

Cyber Scanners will note your 'ware. It'll outline the restricted/illegal/dangerous stuff. Bottom line, illegal or dangerous cyberware is just not something you take in certain games.

I love arguing with you, but even I can't argue with this.
It's in the mod list, so it's a mod.

You mean buildable rules-wise, or just not forbidden?

Basically all of them are rules-legal. He means setting.

Unless you have a hacker friend that can cause it to register as a chip to combat your dyslexia.

That'll take more than hacking unless the security is dumb enough to set up the scanners on a wireless network.

Oops I mean legal in a "I can buy a fake license and carry it around" sort of way. How much that matters varies wildly from game to game, but it's something to keep in mind.

Hell, in setting, you can get a legal liscense if you are a SINner and have reason to have the gun. It is not forbidden, just restricted.

Yes I think he just wanted to clarify that in legality they were talking about was in setting as in you can get a license and not in rules terms as in you may or may not add this mod to that weapon.

Probably... Move along, nothing to see here...

*Moves away whistling and looking inconspicuous*

*notices the ares alpha under that trenchcoat*

*misses the Thunderstruck held under his nose by a very stealthy Adept.*

I'm very attracted to magnetic weaponry, you know.

Okay, have to ask. There's been lots of focus on rc and ammo capacity. What about some of the less obvious mods and accessories like flashlights, periscopes and the like? Shooting from cover without being exposed to return fire and negating full darkness modifiers seem worth it to me. Am I missing something?

You already have a smartgun for that, and if its camera hasn't been upgraded, your eyes are. Flashlights are handy, but that's what duct tape is for, and all guns are pretty much equally amenable to flashlights anyway.

They also mention that "Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns" in a very similar side panel a few pages later despite there being only a single minigun, and no minigun modification. It certainly seems like they mentioned that for no reason. (Or at least, for no reason that made the final cut for Arsenal.) It's not abusive to assume they mention the HV restriction for no reason when there is clear precedent that such rules are, in fact, mentioned for no reason.

Wait, your evidence that the writers intended to allow HV-creep is a rule clearly (if unnecessarily) forbidding minigun-creep?

It seems obvious to err on the side of 'stop being a munchkin, HV is SMG/AR, and minigun is MG-only'.

Miniguns are actually "GE Vindicator LMG only" as it currently stands. So that specific rule on miniguns comes out of nowhere and addresses nothing. It seems to me that a reasonable assumption is that such a rule is sloppy and/or vestigial and best ignored. I'm arguing that the very similarly placed and phrased restriction on HV weapons should be treated the same way. As sloppy and/or vestigial and best ignored. The fact these are the only rules that address weapon construction (rather than modification) further increases my impression that they are the vestigial detritus of weapon construction rules that didn't make the cut and should be disregarded until construction rules should appear.

I just think it's interesting that both the rules you say to ignore are rules *limiting* these options. It's not like they don't make sense, or match the models given in the weapons lists. To conclude the opposite, you have to ignore the models, ignore tendency toward limitation, and ignore the logic of 'no pistol minguns'/'no HV pistols'. No, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either.

I think it's interesting that you're trying to defend a rule that cannot even be applied! Forget a pistol minigun, you can't even get an MMG minigun. There are no weapon construction rules at all, and there is not even a minigun modification. There is nothing for the minigun limitation to possibly limit! So now we have a precedent for obviously irrelevant rules limiting "construction."

Furthermore, apart from the Vindicator LMG, the only reference to miniguns comes from the GE Vigilant and Vanquisher Autocannons descriptions which both say "Use the rules for miniguns." Shall we assume that includes the restriction to only light, medium and heavy machine guns, thus preventing the autocannons from existing? Of course not. The external reference must imply only the rules for firing rates. So now we have a precedent for applying only the rules regarding firing rates when such a side panel is externally referenced.

The only side panel quite like the minigun panel is the high velocity one. So when the High Velocity modification is mentioned, I'm inclined to treat the high velocity panel the same way I had to treat the minigun panel and only use the firing rate rules when externally referenced, ignoring the restrictions on "construction."

Furthermore, the Modification rules do specify restrictions on weapons that can be made high velocity ("Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only"), but conspicuously make no mention of assault rifles or SMGs. Only listing a partial limitation in the modification description and outsourcing the rest of the limitations to the referenced rules would be unique among modification descriptions. Ignoring "construction" rules and only using firing rate rules is not unique.

The best Assault Rifle in the game is:
Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon 10P -5 SS
Firing Selection Change: FA (large mod 4 slots)
Gas Vent 3 (2 mod slots)

On a Smart Firing Platform

But you can...
You know what a Minigun is (You have an example of one built upon a LMG Frame, and they direct that you can do the same with heavier frames)...
A MMG Minigun owuld be built on a MMG Frame (Thus all the rules are the same for the LMG Version, but damage is better, and AP is better).
Same goes for HMG style Miniguns. Simple, really...

Why must everyone have everything spelled out in stone for them?

IF SO... Here you go...

Stoner-Ares "Shredder" Minigun (MMG). Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 16F, Cost: 10,000
Stoner-Ares "Screamer" Minigun (HMG). Damage: 7p, AP: -3, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 22F, Cost: 18,000

The rules say you can have them, and so, here they are... That is not all that hard to do, and looks balanced right out of the box... If you find them to be a little off, change them a bit.

As for references to the Vanquisher and the Vigilant Autocannons... They function LIKE Miniguns... How hard is that? The work LIKE a minigun does. Simple...

Daishi, technically, autocannons aren't miniguns. They just shoot fast, as you say. It's a straightforward case of analogy, not a precedent for bending rules. Anyway, you're still up against the same three issues: game balance, apparent intent, and model precedent.

I still don't think you can Firing Selection on it, sabs.

Except that it is not an Assault Rifle... And no modification (assumming it is a legal modification) you do to it will make it so. It is an Assault CANNON...

Bah, it fires like an assault rifle, it uses the same skill (automatics)
It's effectively an assault rifle, but with more damage, more range, and better ap.

This, basically.

I really don't find it too unreasonable that some guns can be modified to fire two more bullets per unit of time than other models, if said gun is already full auto anyway.

The real world is full of such examples. Not all guns have the same RPM, even if they are considered 'automatic' weapons. Yet in shadowrun, a TMP, an MP5SD5, and an m240 machine gun, and a lego-rubberband gun all put the same amount of ammunition downrange within the shadowrun rules.

Since when does an Autocannon use Automatics as a Skill?

Please see Text in the Rules...



See... Does not use Automatics at all...

You're making my point, Udoshi: SR4 rules aren't realistic. They're based on abstraction and (theoretically) balance.

Damn it I need to stop playing Riggers so much.
I'm so used to Gunnery, I forgot about that part.

No worries...

That weapon on a smart firing platform is really frightening. A Hacker/Rigger using Gunnery and 'jumped into' the Smart Firing Platform starts being able to do full auto narrow bursts with 5 ip.

Well, sort of, since you run out of ammo each IP, so you really only get 1 IP out of it. I would prefer a HMG Minigun for its belted nature... Having to reload every IP gets tedious...

Actually, I just thought of something. Would a M2-HB with a shoulder brace, a pistol grip, and a new trigger system be an assault rifle for a Troll or Giant?

As cool as that would be... No...

If you want to house rule in some MMG and HMG miniguns, I'm all for it, but that hardly changes my argument. A rule that can only constrain house rules is a very bizarre rule. If, somehow, that rule was in fact intended to restrict house-ruled new miniguns, then that only shores up the argument that "construction" rules are separate entities from Modification rules.



Right. So the minigun rules can be used as only referencing the firing rates. Why can't the same be said for high velocity firing rates?

I'm not talking about bending rules, I'm saying the "construction" rules don't apply to anything and are just floating there. If the Modification rules stated "only Full Auto-Capable SMGs and Assault Rifles," then I'd just say, "Well, that's dumb," and house-rule it to apply to LMGs at a minimum, but that's not the situation here. Instead, we're talking about whether or not to bring in a fuzzy restriction through the backdoor with bad precedent. No house rules needed.

1) Game balance: How is an HV LMG more imbalanced than a minigun LMG? HV would be much more in keeping with an LMG's raison d'etre, anyways. If you hate the idea of pistol miniguns, then prohibit pistols from any house ruled minigun modification you may put forward.

2) Apparent Intent: The apparent intent is to address construction rules that don't exist. It's plainly obvious for the miniguns and somewhat obfuscated for high velocity.

3) Model Precedent: I'm unconvinced that model precedent somehow affects the HV modification (at the very least, if it did, shouldn't that modification also drop the damage code by 1 as well?). To reiterate a previous point, the autocannons establish a model precedent where only firing rates need be regarded when the side panels are referenced.

I will address #2... The apparent intent was to give you options, based upon what is being presented in the book, for creating something else. In the Minigun case, they give you a Minigun, based upon the LMG. Then tell you that you can use the same rules and apply them to the MMG and HMG, with the result being an MMG style Minigun, and an HMG style Minigun. As I indicatged aboveabove. Creating those 2 Miniguns is not Houseruling, it is using the example they gave (IN THE BOOK) to create such a weapon and applying it to what they meant it to be used for, in this case MMG Miniguns and HMG Miniguns.

They further expanded this with the inclusion of Autocannons. Which use those exact same rules, just on a much larger scale.

That is Completely different than what you are saying...

Daishi, the same could be said for HV firing rates… but it's not. The mod in question is explicitly High Velocity, not HV-like.

1. If you're going to house rule, all bets are already off. No point even talking about it.
2. I don't agree. In addition, I think the direction matters: I'm on the side of limitation, you're on the side of not.
3. I think the mod *should* drop the damage code, personally. The autocannons are non-miniguns that happen to use the same rate. *shrug* Anyway, the fact that there exist only SMG/AR HV examples is amply clear for me on the precedent issue.

Now, it's true that I'm not really worried about this. Above, I argued for a while that HV isn't really worth it anyway (though some configurations can indeed make use of it effectively). I just don't like sneakiness with the rules.

Pity. A troll with one of those would be one hell of a roadblock.

Hey, good name for a handle, as well!

He can still use it. Heavy Weapons skill isn't a disease.

One of the Shadowtalkers I have with my work ("Tiny Trog") has it (The skill, not a M2-HB Assault Rifle), and is going to make an appearance in the next Nas story I write.

Oh, and here's an attempt at making a machine gun a proto-AR. Didn't work so well, but it was a taste of things to come. Ironically, also a design based on a John Browning invention.

Not saying he can't use the weapon that way... There are rules for that in Arsenal, I think. He would just have to use the Heavy Weapons Skill is all... Hell, A Troll with a Minigun is just awesome. Bonus points for an HMG-Style Minigun...