This is sort of a spin-off of the 'Toughest Ork Merc Possible' topic. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34904

I'm in the midde of analysis paralysis regarding the best weapon for my Merc. Is there a combo that just plain and simple stands above the rest? Or should I get more than one for different situations? (example: one rifle that has plastic components for sneaking past mad detectors, and one that has an underbarrel grenade launcher for other occasions).

Also, should I be thinking SMG for enclosed areas like office buildings etc.? I can see 90% of campaigns taking place in urban areas. In real life, I'd probably choose an SMG over a more bulky assault rifle in those kinds of situations, but I havn't found any rules in the books (SR4A and AR) that deal specifically with using bigger weapons in tighter areas. Then again, I suppose that's why assault rifles have folding stocks, which puts me back at square one.

Someone please save me from myself! lol

I mean, you *can* do this yourself, it's half the fun.

Most people focus on RC (5 means safe Long Burst, 8 is Full Burst) and clip size. Things like MAD-proof are very expensive and specialized, and will have sub-par performance.

There are no rules about 'bulky' weapons in small spaces (though some people who hate fun have written them as house rules).

--
Here's the basic 'best configurations' that I know off the cuff, and listed in rough terms. Smargun's given.

AR: Ares Alpha or Sernopal 88V; with 8 RC, Suppressor option, Extended and/or Dual Clips, Foregrip. (6-8k¥, F)
SMG: Ingram Smartgun or P93 Praetor; with RC 4(5) or 7 (Praetor is hax), Extended and/or Dual Clips, Suppressor, Foregrip. (3500-4500¥)
MP: Ares Crusader; with RC 4(5), Dual Clip, FA Mode, Suppressor. (4500¥)

To my knowledge, there are no game mechanics that differentiate how an assault rifle performs in close quarters vs. a smaller weapon such as an SMG. However, SMGs are more easily concealable, and therefore you might have an easier time getting them INTO said office building.

So in the end, it really all comes down to your personal style and that of your crew. Are you the type of runners who try to go all Matrix and conceal weapons to try to walk through the front door with? (and then get stopped at the scanners and have to shoot your way in anyway) Or are you more of the Bulletstorm type of team who comes in loaded for bear, turns on the Magnetic System on your military-grade armour, and walks down the side of the building to go smashing in through a window?

If your team is going to be doing a mixture of both styles (which is definitely the most likely outcome), it might be best to have two weapons, for different situations. As an example, for a 600BP Tir Ghost that I made for a concept game a friend of mine has discussed running, I built him to focus on dual-wielding the HK Urban Combat SMGs (which are MAD scanner immune), but still gave him the HK XM30 modular weapons system so that he can have the weapons available to fit any situation necessary.

Obviously, a standard 400BP character with starting gear availability restrictions will be more limited, but the idea remains the same - I, myself, also recently built an Ork Mercenary standard build character, and he wields an Ingram White Knight and a FN SCAR-H3 w/ under-barrel grenade launcher when the situation allows for it, but he also has a couple of pistols that are easily concealable for those times when discretion is called for.

Hope my rambling helps you make heads or tails out of your situation!

~Thal`aen

It's nice to see what the grass is like on the other side.

My group is mostly about stealth, but like you said, we have no problem going through the window when stealth isn't the right option or doesn't work. Was leaning towards the HK XM30 because of it's versatility, but the 5 extra build points for restricted gear turned me off. Might take the hit afterall though. That gun is the bee's knees. SCAR-H3... is that from WAR! ? Couldn't find it in SR4A or AR.

Yeah, it's from WAR! I think it's my new favorite weapon, actually - part of the new weapon class of Battle Rifles. They have a base DV of 7P, and as opposed to Assault Rifles, usually don't have the FA option. The SCAR H3 is as follows:

FN SCAR-H3: 7P, –1AP, SA/BF, 2RC (From Gas Vent II), 30© or 60© capacity, Avail. 10R, 3,500¥
Grenade launcher: SS — 6(m)

I prefer SMG over AR, because the damage difference isn't all that much (+1 DV and -1 AP; range is also better, of course), but SMGs are better when it comes to concealability, which - to me - makes them more universally useful, as you can often carry them with you (unless you go into high security areas), and they pack much more punch than a pistol thanks to being fully automatic.

Bye
Thanee

Yeah really, you're taking all the fun out of it... make your own weapon :). That's half the fun of downtime trying to figure out what madcap things you can pull.

Personally though, I kinda prefer heavy pistols to SMG's for concealability and punch. The biggest problem though is recoil comp if the pistol has any kind of burst fire. (many RC comp options aren't available to pistols or hunting rifles... if you get the urge to make one automatic).

That extra +1dam, -1AP is important when you're trying to get through high armor ratings though. That's an extra 2 net hits you need to damage a combat drone/vehicle or spirit.



I'm of mixed mind on battle rifles... one as a huge fan of competition shooting. I'm very familiar w/ the M-14 and it's sniping variants as opposed to the barbie gun M-16's... and prefer them... at the same time I don't know that they were implemented very well. I'd love to just slam a 20rd box mag on a hunting rifle and say done... but the automatics group is already a bit too overpowered and didn't need any more polish. I much rather would have seen them in longarms or as their own exotic weapon group. For all intent's and purposes... right now they're simply AR's only better.

You may want to consider a Machine Pistol as a concealable backup weapon, since they use automatics. Plenty good with a decent dice pool, and fits well in a Hidden Arm Slide.

I've had good luck with a 5-7C(natural recoil is ace) and the Ares Crusader.(gasvent 4 and 40 shots). Pack a surprising punch with stick and shocks.

I know everyone loves the Ares Alpha, but I tend to like mine with the Alternate Clip mod. There's no seperate cost listed for the grenade launcher(the mods cost is Weapon Cost), so at my table, we've ruled that both parts get the extra clip instead of trying to figure out the cost of only part of the gun.
This lets me take non-lethal and lethal ammo in the same gun, and its really nice.

If you're a fan of versatility, the XM30 with Powered Easy Breakdown makes it very easy to change out on the fly.


In the SMG department both the Praetor(natural RC, large clip size) and the HK 227-X. Though, in the 227's case, its a lot better due to the line in arsenal which says that if a gun comes with stuff, they're mods not accessories. It starts to look a lot better when you realize it comes with a -6 sound suppressor AND a smartlink.

But hey, building guns is half the fun of the game! Just remember that modifications and accessories are compatable with each other, and you should never be afraid of using a top-mount smartlink Accessory if you need the modslots.
Also, Auto-Adjusting underbarrel weights(the mod) and Gasvent 3(the accessory) is a rather powerful and -very- cheap combination(300+150? Yes please), but it does cut into your options - you can't close Accessoried gasvents to use a silencer, and the autoweight is 4 mod slots.

I've tried to steer clear of the WAR! book (seems like everyone hates it). Lol

Looks like the responses so far are a mixed bag (smg's, heavy pistols, and assault rifles).

I don't really see why everyone hates the book. I mean, 90% of the new gear is far beyond a player's availability reach, but I enjoy some of the new weapons. I do agree that Battle Rifles would be a better fit for the Longarms weapon group, but... I didn't write the book. ~shrug~ The way I see it, it just gives us some new options to work with. If you and your group choose not to use it, there are plenty of weapons that would fill the same role that are available in Arsenal.

So, throwing the FN SCAR-H3 out, my first choice would be an Ares Alpha tricked out for maximum RC, and then having something like a Colt Cobra TZ-110 with an additional Smartgun system for the times when concealment is a must. But, as all the other posters have said - you have to find the mix that's right for you.

As have said time and again: "Right tool for the right job, you tool."

But my personal suggestion, as we are dealing with criminal types, is the AK-97 (Assault Rifle or "Carbine", ugh. AKS-97U to be exact!). For Mods, I suggest a Bayonet Lug or Gas-Vent System, a Shock Pad, and an External Smartgun Link. A Smart Firing Platform to mount it on next to your bed is also a suggestion.

As it's the same rifle, all the magazines (Ugh, "Clips") and ammo can be used when it comes time to ditch the old rifle/carbine with too much history on it, and get a new one. Just got to replace the lug or the gas-vent, which aren't expensive. The rest can be moved over. Remember to flush the memory of the Smartgun Link, possibly replacing the memory chips themselves to be absolutely certain. Be very, very, VERY careful of knock-offs, they are not as good at all. (Watch "Back To The Future" to watch the Libyan find out he bought a knock-off Kalash.).

Works for Pink Mohawk or Ice Cold. Serves five. I advise talking to SAMCRO for your AK needs.

If it's absolute adaptability you want, you can't go wrong with the H&K XM30 or the Steyr AUG-CSL (Arsenal Page 27.).

Regarding the XM-30's Shotgun. Its actually better than it looks. Its not required to fire Flechettes, like some shotguns. 9P is not bad at all, or the range on slugs, or even the option to take shock lock rounds.

I do, however, think its AP code is a typo - it should be -1, not +1. That, or it wasn't ever updated from 4th's old flechette rules or somethig.

Ares Alpha.

What prohibits you from carrying a shotgun and an assaultrifle? 2 dedicated weapons willbe a lot better than that thing. Also reconfguration will take much to long to be of use in a firefight. Better get two weapons. they are cheaper and more easily available.

AFAIK, very few SR4 shotguns require flechette. The default for SR4 shotguns has always been slugs.

The 'reconfigurable' guns really aren't flexible; like Dakka Dakka says, they take forever to switch, and they also take different Firearms skills to use the various versions. You're gaining nothing.

My merc has all of the skills needed to use the different configs (he's a bit of a weapons expert) but i agree that it's a resource hog at char gen (especially needing restricted gear at 5bp to get it). If i find it during play I'll pick it up.

I liked CanRay's low cost option of the ak 98/97. If i did get any of the reconfigurable guns, and then lost them during play somehow, i'd feel stupid. With the ak's (especially ak97), I'd walk to the corner store and buy another (and some skittles).

Yeah, that's why the Ingram Smartgun X is such a venerable favorite, since it is feature rich right out of the box and has sound suppression despite being only Restricted rather than Forbidden. It'd be nice if it could fire in SA, but overall you can do an awful lot worse when nuyen is tight and you need a gun ASAP.

Definitely, that's why I mentioned it in my little list. The Smartgun's always been *the* standard for the off-the-shelf multi-role automatic.

Anyone get any mileage out of a target designator accessory and indirect fire? Or how about a periscope (ability to shoot around corners by only exposing hands/arms)?

Skinlinks, if your GM likes hackers, are worth their weight in gold.

Smartguns already do that, whatevs.

Target designators are really just for missiles and things, but a TacNet and smartguns can do Information-Guided Fire, which is a (better) kind of Indirect.

Get any full auto SMG or assault rifle, upgrade it to high velocity, and mow down everything that comes your way.

Nah. Big waste of mod slots for really no benefit, even if you somehow had enough RC.

If you travel around a lot through "normal" channels, get used to a common, cheap gun with common, cheap modifications. That way, when you travel, you can just buy another gun at your destination rather than risk getting caught by airport security.

This may true, but any runner worth his salt would do well to invest in a discreet method of international travel and take their own gear along. I don't know about you, but I've had one bad experience too many with weapons I picked up on location not performing as advertised...

I always like to get my gear from someone I know and trust (or steal it myself), so that I know exactly what I am going into battle with. Just my two bits..

-Thal`aen

Assuming, of course, that you're a globe-trotting super-agent. Runners can be local, and carry their special guns around.

True, true - I was just saying that if you WERE to do international work, you'd be a fool to rely upon public transportation.

Totally. Smuggling is half the fun!

What about 2 long bursts to attack 2 enemies, or 4 separate short bursts to attack 4 enemies every IP?

Well, if your home ground is Denver, that advice still applies .

In more normal cities, you'll also want a series of cheap disposable guns if your GM is the type to worry about forensics. Otherwise, go to town, but don't bother tricking your assault rifle out for stealth - if you're worried about getting through MAD detectors and such, use a handgun instead. If you need an assault rifle it's because you're going to, well, assault someplace rather than sneak go through security .

Machinegun with underbarrel cannon.

If you're gonna go loud, go loud!




-k

It mostly comes down to the recoil issue and the relative lack of 4-in-one-burst opportunities. Unless your character is Rambo (which hey, is entirely possible) odds are there will be times where you find Full Narrows to be both deadly and unwieldy enough to make you want to stand pat. With that said, I do sometimes find it hard to pass up on a gun that goes to 11.

longbowrocks, you'll never hit them if you split your DP that much. It's nothing you can't do nearly/exactly as well with FA… without wasting all your mod slots and having no RC. If you must attack 4, Suppressive Fire with FA.

There's a big difference between splitting, and subtracting from, your dice pool. Large DPs are almost immune to subtraction, whereas splitting is their worst enemy.

Suppressive fire is only your weapon's base DV, not OKO level.

There's no DP spliting involved when shooting multiple targets with Full-Auto.

So? Again, you're not going to hit (let alone 'OKO') 4 targets a round anyway, and FA can already do 3. You'd need 4 targets within 1 meter of each other, and you've got 11 points of recoil and -0/-2/-4/-6 from multiple targets. It *can* be done, but only by shifting a lot of resources away from other places, and the benefit isn't worth it.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you were using the capital-S Splitting rule. I meant that you were significantly reducing your DP (and the burst effects) in order to make multiple attacks. Everyone breathe.

*Whew!* I almost suffocated there!

I would argue that the 4 bursts can be at any targets you want. the one meter restriction appears to be limited to when you use a full burst against multiple targets.

As for recoil, I know there are additional rues in arsenal, so maybe I should check that, but I'm see 9 RC from combining just gyro stabilization and gas vent II, as per the core book.

You would argue wrong. HV is a variant of FA, and multiple targets from any burst fire (Long, Full, Full HV) are 'walked' within 1 meter.

Gyro stabilization is a big deal; it's a harness you wear and attach the gun to. That is indeed an option, but it has drawbacks. Other options are the optional Strength/RC rule, gyro cyberarms, tripods, vehicle mounts, etc. Whatever method you use is a lot harder than just using FA, just to make a fourth attack at -11. It's not quite so bad for the dual long bursts (second attack at -8, perhaps?), but it's also not much *better* than a normal FA 6/3 burst combo.

I'm not saying it's impossible, at all. I'm saying it's not worth it in most situations. As Whipstitch said, 3 targets or -9 dodge or +9 DV is usually plenty, especially if 4 targets/-11 dodge/+11 DV costs more (ammo, mod slots, RC needs, etc.).

Thanks for catching me on the 4 short bursts. I forgot that short bursts by themselves are illegal with an HV weapon.

If you're going to have enough RC for normal FA, you're probably going to have one of those heavy duty recoil reducers, such as a gyro mount. 2 More points on top of that can come from a heavy barrel and foregrip or something.

And as you said, there's still the two long bursts you can do in terms of utility!

Honestly, I usually aim for 5 or 6 RC, and we use the Strength rule; no gyromount/tripod, cuz those are uncool. That gets you up to about 8, which is enough for 6/3. It's *not* enough for 12… and again (at the certainty of being repetitive), 12 isn't really better than 9/10.

Yeah, upon realizing that the 4 short burst were actually an application of 1 supercharged full burst, I changed my argument in that last comment to: "what about the extra long burst it grants you, which *can* be used on anybody"

Okay. 6/6 isn't that much better than 6/3.

Tripods are uncool for shadowrunners but what's wrong with a gyromount?
6 points that can be used either to compensate recoil or running modifiers is great.

An AR (HV or otherwise) in a Gyromount is ridiculous however. Use at least an LMG.

Unless that "LMG" is GE Vindicator Minigun, an HV modded AR is a better shoice then an LMG.

But my shoice for Gryromount might be HV modded Battle rifle with a 100 round drum

Probably because by strict RAW... the idiots who wrote the rules for recoil and HV mods...

They made the HV mod only available to AR's and SMG's. (there is one Battle rifle which is built that way... but that doesn't mean the mod is available by strict RAW reading to all BR's). It's not available to belted MG's which is where I'd most like to use it.

Similarly the idiots gave a double recoil penalty to MG's which are designed for sustained high volume fire (even on the move) while only giving lightweight weapons like SMG's and AR's a non-doubled recoil penalty getting it completely backwards.


Personally though, I'm all in favour of a HV modified white Knight.

I know it's late for the party, but I might add that my favorite automatic weapon is actually the viper slivergun. At 8 DV/+5 AP, it won't often deal outright physical (stun track is usually shorter anyway) but still packs a punch on (meta)humans. It's not a forbidden weapon despite having sound suppression, it can operate in burst fire (easily modded to full auto), and it has a concealment of +0. That's better than most SMGs, which will often garner significantly more attention.

Yes, it's less versatile than most SMGs option-wise, it can only take one type of ammo, and the recoil comp options are pretty crappy (best used in burst fire, one in each hand). It's still an awesome gun.

BR:s count as Assault Rifles for what accessories and mod they can get.

This is actually wrong, because its misleadingly printed. There's actually two kinds

Only SMG's and Assault rifles can be constructed as high velocity weapons.

the high velocity modification on the other hand, can be applied to any full-auto capable weapon.

Agh! We've got to stop meeting like this, Udoshi. No, that's nuts—loophole! The mod just says 'refer to the HV rules on p26', where it clearly says 'SMG/AR only'. There *is* no weapon 'construction' in SR4, and it's deliberately abusive to assume they mentioned it for no reason.