It really depends on your GM. Most of mine have said 'forget the rolling for your self-coded programs, take out the same amount of money for buying programs for the amount of snacks you bought and time you could have spent working.'

The problem is that the Shadow Run system is a Rating 1-6 system.

Programs over rating 7, and Technomancers BREAK THE GAME.
Going up against Threshold 12's and 24 will break the game.

A Shutdown action, for example, is hacking+exploit, Threshold System+Firewall(combat round)
That means you need 24 hits, or conversely roughly 90 dice.

Having your average commlink be a 3, a drek hot being a 5, Military grade being a 6-7 is a workable system.
If you make ZOG be rating 8, maybe 9 tops.

Much like Force 12 spirits break the game pretty stupidly, so do Rating 12 programs, Sprites, and Technomancers.

The Rating 4 cap for Autosofts is because there is only so much a machine can learn about a skill, even in 2070. At rating 4, a machine can be quite deft at shooting or electronic warfare, but they can never be as adept as a skilled and dedicated metahuman at the same task. Once they do, they become an AI and get skill sets like the rest of us.
You can't program a SK to have the equivalent of a Rank 10 in, say, Medicine, when the most anyone can know about it is 7.

I would. Agents/IC/Pilots are limited to rating 6, Autosofts to rating 4. Most other programs can have higher ratings now, but those are limited to rating 10.

Autosofts are basically skillsofts/Activesofts for machines - and are capped just like those (but with fewer Options to sneak around the limit.)

So, basically you guys are saying that you can't code anything above the highest rating for sale in the book. However, I have never seen a rule about that before. You would think that if they intended the game to work that way, they would:
A. Not make it possible to get hardware ratings that exceed program max ratings.
B. Add a limit on coding ratings in the table on SR4A 228, similarly to how they limit purchasable items.
C. Mention the limit somewhere. Anywhere even.

Sorry guys. I'm not buying.

On a different note, why do some drones in WAR have rating 3 tacsofts since they can never be a member of a group that high?

Your argument is instead that the game is intended to be broken by programmers?

They pointed out its already broken. 20 dice without bonuses is pretty darn good.

I actually don't know what they were thinking, but it's no worse than magic, or using mundane and cyber to destroy anything below 25 armor in one hit with a holdout. It's just another thing that can go out of control.

If you're looking for balance, I'd like to point out that these other things can be done from char gen, whereas hackers and riggers need a while to rev up.

Nope it is an explicit Hardcap... Just sayin'

Actually, that is wrong... Unwired unlocked the Rating 6 Cap...

Sooo... Then mundane hacker is a dead-end niche that uses up most of your BP and will eventually be outclassed by any other archetype in the game? That's depressing.

This isn't WoW. You can be hacker+anything… and everyone should be something+hacker.

If 20 dice (Rating 6 programs) is broken enough, why do you need Rating 24? Hehe. My point is that these heights are accessible only to purpose-optimized programmers, apparently *aren't* achieved by megacorps, and only break things worse. Why would you want something in your game that is apparently impossible (for trillion-dollar companies), is unnecessary, and breaking? Binky and pornomancers aren't real characters.

Technos are real. AIs are real. WAR is real. Who actually follows that R6 limit on the Matrix besides hackers? Again, why is R7+ so breaking for hackers but not for everyone else?

As for the crazy optimization, yeah, we're using that here ('cause it's fun) but even rolling 12 dice on you programming test (very low with software) will get you a rating 9-10 Common Use programs in a month or two. Heck, buying the hits on 12 dice will get you Analyze R9 in six weeks. Even forgetting hacking programs, Analyze, Command, and arguably Edit are all easy to acquire over R6 and very useful.

And TJ, where exactly is the hardcap on autosofts. I know program options specifically say they're limited to R1-6 unless otherwise mentioned but where does the R4 barrier for autosofts come from?

I'm pretty sure he's just referencing the sales tables in the core book. In other words: if no one put it on the market, it doesn't exist.

*shrug* Then all the example stats in Unwired are wrong. WAR! is war, facrissake. Nothing in it is intended to be used.

I don't know what this 'everyone else' you're talking about is. Technomancers are supposed to be special, and they pay ungodly karma for it; literally everyone shouldn't be able to surpass it for free.

That's also assuming that handwritten programs never degrade (crazy); like I said, either writing your own code is worthless, or totally broken. Either it's fully possible for any decent hacker (and therefore completely available to all corps), or it's too hard to bother with. If it's the former, it's just raising the barrier for entry and making mega-optimization a requirement (not an advantage). Unlike Binky or pornomancers, hackers don't particularly depend on crazy races, Qualities, or massive 'ware.

It's just about the same as giving all your characters milspec armor and crazy weapons for free: arms race. That's not fun, to me.

For the record, my position is 'revamp the coding rules entirely'. People who invest in Logic and Programming should be able to get an edge (a reasonable one). But it shouldn't be a mere question of time (short time, to boot) for Joe Runner to get things that are better than an entire megacorp can make for their military and for ZO.
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There are plenty of things on the market that players still can't get (nuclear subs, or simply rare F gear). There's no great reason to assume that you *can* make (but apparently not buy—even illegally) things that aren't on the gear tables. We know, for example, that there's a solid reason you can't get ActiveSofts above 4.

I think I missed something. What brought this on?

I hear you say this sort of thing about mundanes frequently. Does your GM give you guys inifinite resources and no consequences on a glitch when making availablity tests? To hear you talk Yerameyahu, by the end of the first session everyone in the game has 30 dice in guns, and the awakened chars have bored through Lofwyr's plot armor.

It's the ridiculous time requirements that get in the way. Even with 1/4 intervals, you have 20+ programs (total threshold of... a few hundred for high ratings?) you need to make for a full complement.

I don't understand your question. What do I say about mundanes? Availability tests *are* a complete joke, but I don't remember mentioning them.

More commonly, I see people talking about 1/8 intervals. I think I mentioned earlier that there are 20+ programs total, but you really only need about 4-6 vitally. That's far fewer. (Don't forget the recurrent idea to use coder-drones, too, hehe.) It obviously depends on the exact configuration of rules, optional rules, house rules, etc. in play; overall, though, all the combinations fall into 'worthless' or 'broken'.

'everyone' can get it for 'free' is kind of your catchphrase when it comes to mundane abilities. That makes the whole process sound like the awakened characters can invest in all the things a mundane does at the same rate. Conversely, that implies the magic that awakened characters have is 'free', otherwise they'd be a little behind in terms of mundane investment.

Lets stick with arguing RAW. Otherwise the possibilities branch endlessly.

Ah. I think you're misunderstanding me there, but let's focus on this thread. I'm saying that all hackers (anyone with a commlink and some skill points) can get programs (especially focusing on high-rating ones) for literally free. (Some cost, if you're renting the programming environment, or paying lifestyle—except you're spoofing your lifestyle, duh.) I'm not saying anything about 'mundanes', except to point out that technomancers pay through the nose to have powers that beat normal hackers (usually in one specific area only). That's kind of the opposite of your 'magic is free' point.

1/4 time *is* bad enough, of course. I just wanted to point out the depths of the crazy. It honestly depends on how much time you have. If time becomes a valuable resource, then the GM should strictly allocate it, just like karma and cash. A lot of this discussion does assume that this isn't the case, I admit.

Since you mentioned it: I've never seen anyone roll a glitch. Ever. Even if they did, they simply aren't very damaging.

I don't know if you can call Technos special. There's two kinds of hacking user archetypes: hackers and Technos. Saying that half are "special" kinda ruins the "specialness". And that's ignoring AIs.


Why? Don't get me wrong, megas, especially places like MCT zero zones, should totally have R7+ programs and systems. And we're not talking mega-optimization here (well, longbowrocks and I were but that's hardly typical). Since programming feeds off Logic, skill, program, and ware getting a decent enough dice pool for a R7+ doesn't require crazy optimization, it requires programming software and 7 dice from Logic/skills/ware. Once you're getting 3-4 hits, writing R7+ programs just takes time.


I see it differently. It's not giving out milspec armor, it's allowing you're players to eventually get milspec armor. Even if the hacker started programming after the first run, (presuming 1 run a month which seems standard), they won't have the new programs until the third run and they'll probably be just finishing up the coding. (presuming 6 weeks to program, say Analyze 9-10 and 2-ish weeks to program the optimization). If they want hacking programs, it'll take significantly longer. How is (excepting some of the crazy optimized builds that everyone has) letting the hacker get a moderate boost from an R9-10 program every 2-3 gaming sessions gamebreaking? Even the most optimized hacker is still going to take months in-game to get what we would consider a basic R12 package (like Analyze, Stealth, Exploit, and Blackhammer). Compare that to a techno who's been threading R12 from chargen or a Magic 6 mage or a "Super" Sam.


But we know they exist. In fact, there is no theoretical max on programs. AI's get their inherent programs which they can raise with Karma. Give an AI 70-80 Karma and he'll break R12, give him hundreds of Karma and he'll break R20. Give him millions of karma and he'll have R1,000,000. We know they exist. There's just no obvious way for hackers to get there besides programming.

It *is* ignoring AIs. Too minor (and *different*) to bother with. Technomancers *are* special. How could they not be? If anything, they're more special than mages; at least equally so.

How easy it is to get 7+ (though I think we're usually talking way more than 7) is exactly my point. If it's easy, then everyone else (the corps) already did it, and better. Their basic installations should have it, not their super-max zones.

You can't say 'except for the optimized builds', because they totally outclass the poor normals. And they're not monstrosities that the GM can smack off the table. They're just guys with high Logic and skill, basically. So, optimized is a requirement, and being broken is the norm.

They don't exist. AIs are the special-est of special cases, next to maybe a free sprite or something. AI programs are unique, unless you're saying other people can copy and use them. There's not 'no obvious' way to get there, there's no way at all. (Not that AIPCs have it easy, anyway. Program max = LOG, which they'll have to raise along with all those programs.) With free (non-limited) programming for normal hackers, they'll easily far surpass the AIs. I'd be mad if I paid 110 BP to be a creature of the Matrix, and then get mangled on my home turf by a not-insanely-optimized hacker.

I was ignoring it since I knew what you meant, but it just crops up so often I finally had to comment for anyone who may be misunderstanding.

But people still need a commlink to run their programs on, and quite a few skills in comparison to any other archetype, and five bucks to bribe their GM to give them 4 months of downtime before the next mission.

Really? What sort of people do you play with? Statistically that's unbelievable since someone generally ends up rolling a dump skill/stat.

Still curious. Where did this come from?

Ah, I see what you mean about 'free'. I'm assuming everyone will have a decent commlink—it's a requirement for running, period. I disagree that a hacker needs more skills than others. If anything, I say fewer. They also don't need Wires 3, or Power Focus 4, or to be a SURGEd Dryad, etc. It's easy to be a good hacker, and it's easy to be a great one… which means it's easy to get programs that (fluff-wise) beat anything up to military-grade. … And don't degrade (I disagree, of course), and aren't Registered, and cost 0 Nuyen, and can be copied infinitely to all your friends, drones, devices…

(This is an aside, so I'll be brief, and I'm talking just about my friends/table. People tend to roll what they're good at. The troll doesn't try to face, etc. Few players hyper-specialize either, so they have more skills in the 'decent' range. I'm not saying it's impossible, just relating my experience. As I said, glitches are far from crippling anyway. In programming, the worst they likely do is waste a little more time.)

Unwired gives sample nodes/security setups; if it's so easy to get high-rating programs, it's unreasonable for the sample nodes to be so low. It's the 'corps already have thousands of people just like you' concept. Some people think runners are more special than that. *shrug* I think Einsteins are vanishingly rare.

The programming is limited to device rating (or device rating + 6). It seems to me that technomancers have a higher limit than hackers, but fall behind in that time between chargen and high karma endgame. AI's have higher limits than either of them, but fall behind in the short game.

As the thread shows, it's not a very strict limit. System + 6 still lets you do some pretty impressive things; Rating 12 is not 'okay'. Rating 12 is WAR! If you let a nexus program anything (because they're unlimited), then you could build a minimal one for a couple grand. The examples start at just 5000¥.

I guess it still comes down to the GM controlling time as a resource. Otherwise, the point is that a hacker with no karma can (easily) beat the technomancer and the AI, just by taking enough time (and by that we mean a few months, perhaps). While I don't love the way 'awakened' characters tend to trounce, they do deserve something for their investment.

I was thinking: cybercombat; electronic warfare; hacking; software; computer; and data search. This is certainly more than face, techno-anything, mage, or sammy, but you might argue that a good hacker doesn't need all that.

Ah. Well, it's not any easier to get high rating programs if we raise the max for high ratings. It just allows us to go farther.

It sounds like all your players take a bit of hacker. Does each one specialize in a certain area? Our GM gears more toward making/allowing everyone to do a bit of diplomacy, and leaves hacking to the specialized.

Yes, I'd certainly argue that a hacker doesn't need all of those. What skills do you think those other archetypes need, exactly?

I'm not sure what you mean. It's not really any *harder* to get the high-rating programs (I'd love an exponential or otherwise increasing Threshold/interval, for example). But my point was that we're given sample nodes; if you can beat those, you're beating entire IT departments of major nation-corporations. By yourself, armed with a cheap nexus and a few sleepless nights.

(Another aside. I do think everyone in the Sixth World needs a little 'hacker', just as everyone must be able to shoot a gun and dodge. The specialists certainly shine, and they're the ones breaking nodes. But leaving every little data search or security feature to 'the hacker' is as lame as leaving *every* conversation to the face. It makes sense, but only to a point.)

That's mostly cuz no one else took the skills. I also think it's more important for everyone to be capable of handling themselves in social situations, simply because it's more likely you will have to talk to someone than hack something. It's kinda like how 0 level skill is rather competent. I assume you guys can google at 0, but you won't be as good as the guy who has his own search engine that automatically cross-correlates a half dozen databases. You don't need to be This Guy to talk to folks, but he'll do it better.

I think there's a couple different arguments going on and I'd like to summarize them. Please let me know if you think I missed one or misrepresented one.

#1

Maybe, but if so they've already been broken. Technos and AIs already do it, hackers have access to ware which boosts their rolls, and adepts can boost their skills. There might be balance concerns, which I'll address later, but if R7+ is broken then the game is already broken and we should adjust, not pretend that the R6 cap is real when it plainly isn't.

#2

Aren't Sprites, Echoes, Threading, and the Resonance Realm special enough (or awesome qualities like Rootkit and, well basically immortality for AIs)? Unique abilities with interesting effects are good special. Having only one guy having access to some stuff which is just plain superior doesn't make the character special in any useful way, just in a "over 9000" way.

#3

We know these thing exist and we have clear rules for building them (in a system which is usually impossibly vague on how to build things). I don't see a RAW problem here. They exist, we all know they exist, and the rules for coding them are (kinda) clear.

#4

It is just not that difficult to get 12-15 dice on a roll based on programs, skills, Logic, and wares. And getting new, superior equipment every couple sessions isn't breaking the game, it's usually called getting paid and getting Karma. You're not getting the new programs instantly, it'll take a couple of sessions which is about in line with how most games advance: the characters steadily and predictably get more powerful. How is coding an R7+ program fundamentally different from buying a better gun/car/initiating? Yes, the hacker gets more dice in certain areas, so will the other players and so should the opposition.

#5

#1 I absolutely agree that megacorps (or at least certain departments) should have R7+ systems.
#2 While it does seem kinda weird, there are fluffy reasons for hackers to be able to code things that corps couldn't. (1) Hackers can steal and mix-and-match code from various companies. Mix the best of the SK, MCT, and Horizon Stealth systems without worrying about copyright or corporate reprisals. (2) Small user base. If SK releases a new Analyze program, hundreds of millions of people will use it and everyone will be able to study it and patch their Stealth systems to take advantage of it's flaws. Code evolves regularly. Hackers can step outside that and if they find a few unique ways to improve the code, bonus. (3) Money doesn't always equal quality. Yes, mega corp teams have lots of money and researchers but they have a variety of constraints that independents don't have, like marketing people. Compare Linux or Firefox to corporate products nowadays and it doesn't seem too crazy.


And now for something completely different: agreement!

Absolutely!


I'd try to say it more nicely but yeah, the R6 cap system is already broken. I don't think it helps to pretend it isn't, just adjust the setting a bit for corps having more high-end programs and go.

If I'm going to play an archetype, I think I should at least get the skill group that's named after them. Except if I'm playing a sammie. In that case I take one or two weapon skills, and some other supporting skills. I never take dodge. If something ever gets within melee range of me, it's strong enough that it probably could have killed me before I saw it. If I ever find myself in a position where I'm willing to sacrifice an IP for full dodge, I'm going to die anyway.

I guess. By the way. have you seen a mage? He doesn't even need the commlink. Just run stark naked into a major corp and tell your force 12 spirits to kill everyone.
Programmers are the closest thing to mages IRL. I don't see why they wouldn't have similar style in Shadowrun.

Wait. If you think everyone needs to shoot, dodge, hack, and face, there is no way in a 100 port hub that you have never seen anyone glitch before. Their dominant skill would be under 20. Perhaps around 15.

Also, wow that's a nice long post PoliteMan.

Finally, does anyone have any idea why drones in WAR are equipped with tacsofts that they can never use?

>War!
The question contains the answer.

You lost me on that one. Unwired states that drones can be members of a tactical network. Don't remember the page number off hand, but it says something along the lines of members of the network can be people or drones.

Actually, yes, Aaron, it's right in the description of tacnets in Unwired, I believe.
Now, whether they have a sufficient number of sensor channels is another question altogether...

I have never seen a rule that says I can't make a gun that gives me 12P, AP -9 with 23 points of recoil. Neither have I seen a rule that says I can. It is implicit in Matrix rules, and indeed in proving negatives, that if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't do it.
To answer your questions about Autosofts,

A: The hardware rating of drones is used in things other than Autosofts, such as Programs and Combat. The Response can exceed the Autosoft Rating for those things, as those are not capped.
B: The limit is implicit. Ecverything is for sale in the 6th World. If it existed, it would be purchasable. It doesn't, so it can't. To reiterate caps already expressed seems excessive.
C: The limit for Autosofts and Skillsofts are mentioned in the purchase table. It is also mentioned in the fact that no drone anywhere has an Autosoft greater than 4, even in WAR! which has a drone with a Pilot of 5, yet all it's Autosofts are at 4.

As for coding non-Autosofts greater than 10, I think that's in UV node territory, at which point the programmer should be blurring the lines between reality and VR; making addiction tests and trying to run programs in real life because it seems lees real than the node in which they are programming.

… yeah, that's the 'problem'. I'm not saying it's hard, but that it's *easy*.

This is what I meant when I said that all the samples in Unwired must be wrong, then.

Linux is crap. And a truly massive, ancient project. These aren't examples of trillion-dollar nation-corps losing to one criminal mercenary.
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… But *not* coding it! It says strongly that it's insane and you can only get it in crazy situations.

--
longbowrocks, I really fundamentally disagree that hackers are like mages, and maybe that's why we're having so much trouble here. Mages are super-special, hackers are *normal*—only moreso. Hackers are just like sams, in that they're doing totally normal things that anyone can do, but much much better. (And glitches don't exist at the 15-20 DP range. Hell, why would anyone even have skills above that?)

One Camera At Rating 6 can power an entire Tacnet rated at 2 (with the right mods on the camera) or 3 (based upon the Sensor Rating of the Camera)...

The only drone I can find that has a TacNet built in is the GCR-65S with its tacnet 1 software. Since it has a sensor rating of 2 and thus two channels, that's high enough to pass. I will admit getting drones on a higher rating tacnet is tough. Why couldn't they make it drone sensor = rating of tacnet it could join is beyond me. If drones can qualify like metahumans, it isn't as bad, but still annoying since you'll have to mod the heck out of their ill-defined sensor suites.

Edit-grammer and style

What they should have done was make it exponentially harder to code programs the higher the rating.

A rating 7 program should be /hard/ but potentially doable by a dedicated hacker.
A rating 8 program should be /hard/ but potentially doable by a group of dedicated hackers
A rating 9 program should be nearly impossible, except by a group of specialized programmers working with state of the art technology, and requiring at least 1 person with a 7 programming skill.

Anything above that, should be wacky AI shit.

The rules for rushing jobs isn't harsh enough on glitches.

Technomancers should not be able to thread and improve existing complex forms, without spending karma.
Threading should allow you to do 1 of 3 things
1) Create a temporary Complex Form from 0
2) Improve an already existing complex form, for the purpose of increasing it's permanent rating. (by spending Karma)
3) Create a Rank 1 permanent Complex Form (by spending karma)

Nexus need to be completely re-written.
Persona Limits MAKE NO SENSE, and it needs to change from, "number of people who originate from here to" "Number of Icons that can be in the system at any one time."

You always count as being "in" the node you originate from. That's fine. But every Node you have a subscription to, should count you in it's "persona" limit.

The key with drones is to throw out the 'sensor rating' and instead use individual sensors independently.

So a Fly Spy has
Camera R6 = 1 sensor
Thermographic Modification = 1 sensor
low-light vision modification = 1 sensor
Ultra Sound mod = 1 sensor
Microphone R 6 = 1 sensor
Augio Enhancement = 1 sensor
Spatial Recognizer = 1 sensor
Olifactory Sensor R6 = 1 sensor

That gives it 8 channels, or enough for a TacSoft Rating 4.

That's plenty

Technomancer issues would be fixed if you use the CF as the limit on hits that you can achieve. Under the Optional Rule of Skill + Attribute (Hits capped by Program Limit), you do not have any of the above issues at all, since your CF does not add to your DP...

Just a plug for the optional rule...

You still have issues with Stealth rating of 12 but.. that just means that Technomancers are SUPER GOOD at hiding in plain sight in a node.

Only on initial Penetration, where the CF/Program sets the threshold to be noticed... Afterwards, the test is opposed, and you are rolling your Logic + Skill with caps limited by CF/Program. It is an opposed test.

And what's stopping a technomancer from threading it to 11? Or 12?

Because Logic(6)+skill(6)=DP 12. Sure, if he yahtzees he can count all 12 dice, but how often is THAT gonna happen.

Why would he need to? Since the CF is the CAP for hits, there is less incentive to thread to insane levels. A System with programs rated at 6 is not going to detect that rating 7 Stealth on Insertion, and will be contested thereafter. Why would it need a Rating 11 oer 12? I have noticed that the optional Rule GREATLY reduces the need for insane levels of Programming/Threading. And actually makes sense of the lower rated programs that are out there. Also, for tyhose Military/Secret Research Facilities that DO have programs rated higher, they have the personnel available that will allow their full use.

My personal Experience anyways... Anecdotal though it is Yerameyahu

TJ

I agree, sabs: higher ratings need to get harder faster.

I've never really pondered the influence of the Skill+Attr (Max Prog/CF) rule on technomancers.

Do you think it makes hacker advancement (karma/cashwise) and technomancer advancement more similar? I.e. technomancers a bit less karma-draining, and hackers a tad more?

What about using rating squared as the base threshold? It'd make lower rating software really easy, but you can get those as freeware anyway. Once you start trying to do milspec stuff you're looking at 49+ difficulties. Then tack on a little more for hacking software, autosofts, and the other types that are supposed to be harder.