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Cain
Tactics is up to the players, not the GM. Adapting to the player tactics is a GM thing.

But honestly, anyone dumb enough to simply stand there and take it deserves what they get. Reaction is just as important as body and armor, because it also reduces the damage you take. Even the troll tank in my game has learned the value of cover, because sooner or later someone will show up with weapons that can hurt him. Mages shouldn't be exposing themselves that much anyway. Riggers and deckers can stay in the van. You also don't need the body bonus if you've got a good reaction, which is why elf and human shooters can take down orks without trouble.

If you're using things like cover, smoke, and magical Confusion whenever possible, you don't need to rely on your body to soak damage. You rely on not getting hit in the first place, which is a smarter bet. When I play mages, I tend to pack smoke grenades and flash-bangs, to keep enemy shooters from drawing a bead. Having extra body is nice, but it's not the be-all and end-all of Shadowrun combat. Honestly, extra Quickness is a smarter move, since it enables you to put enemies down faster and quicker. SR4.5 is a game of eggshells with hammers; the sooner you can take out the other eggshells, the less you have to fear from their hammers.
suoq
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 26 2011, 07:30 PM) *
Tactics is up to the players, not the GM.

No. The player's tactics are up to the players. The NPCs tactics are up to the GM.
QUOTE
But honestly, anyone dumb enough to simply stand there and take it deserves what they get. Reaction is just as important as body and armor, because it also reduces the damage you take. Even the troll tank in my game has learned the value of cover, because sooner or later someone will show up with weapons that can hurt him.
No one. NOT A SINGLE PERSON is claiming reaction is unimportant. They're attempting to explain to you that, with proper tactics used by NPCs, characters will need body and armor.
QUOTE
Mages shouldn't be exposing themselves that much anyway.
Mages do not need to be exposed to get hit by indirect attacks.
QUOTE
Riggers and deckers can stay in the van.
Why is the van SAFE? Does the opposition not use detect hidden nodes, trace, etc? Do they never attempt to hack the van, block in the van, blow up the van? It is the tactics being used by the GM that makes the players ability to avoid combat possible.
QUOTE
You also don't need the body bonus if you've got a good reaction.
Players at your table don't. Other players are subject to tactics you choose not to use. You have chosen a playstyle that allows characters to play to their strengths and avoid their disadvantages. At your table, this is fine. But I do not believe based on this thread, that your playstyle is the norm.
Cain
Believe what you like. Fact is, SR4.5 is still eggshells with hammers. No matter how tough you are, you will go down to a good shot or two.

Yes, I encourage the use of cover, visibility modifiers, and other tricks to avoid being hit in the first place. That removes some of the need for a high Body. If your players aren't using cover, then your playstyle is basically "Standoff at High Noon", with everyone in the open, no terrain or lighting modifiers, just keep shooting until people fall down. That encourages high Body and armor. But to be honest, that's kinda boring: using terrain and vision to your advantage is not only smart, it's effective. If your playstyle means that people never get cover, never use smoke or vision mods, and basically becomes a game of who's tougher, then that dictates what builds you find effective. I use a variety of builds, and anyone dumb enough to stand in the open deserves what he gets.

(For the record: I've taught the troll tank several painful lessons about the benefits of cover. Even he's learned, and he's got nearly 30 soak dice.)
Whipstitch
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 26 2011, 07:04 PM) *
Why is the van SAFE? Does the opposition not use detect hidden nodes, trace, etc? Do they never attempt to hack the van, block in the van, blow up the van?


Seriously, 3 more Body is like a fart in a hurricane in those situations. Getting past a blockade on foot is a tough sell even for Samurai, for god's sake. I like Body, I really do, and I love me some orks. I play them all the time. But from here, it seems to me you're saying "So, what happens if you meet someone who can beat you on your own turf AND surrounds you with mooks?" Obviously, the answer is "Probably lose." I mean, really, if some dude sticks his head in my van, I'm mostly hoping that my cocoon holds out while the smart tripod and my steel lynx do their level best to ventilate the poor shmuck. Mind you, I do think low Body will come up sooner or later--weird shit has a way of happening in Shadowrun and playing like you're shackled to your van has limitations of its own. But with that said, it's not like you're getting nothing out of the deal, either.
Marvelous Marvin
Humans are the best edge masters. The guys that really aren't good at anything really save being the best in the world when it counts. No other race can get to 8 edge, pure and simple. And with 8 edge that's 8 dice you get to add to any roll 8 times during a run.

And you can unlock that 8'th point of edge for less than the cost of taking any other metatype. The best part of the Human Metatype is that they can equally be any build equally well, including filling multiple roles at once.

I currently have a Edge Master/Way of the Speaker/Gunslinger/Face/Mr. Johnson (been playing him off and on for a few years now) that in our home campaign may be winning the 2076 Republican Primary for Governor of Seattle.

He's currently 37 points ahead of "Darth Brackhaven" in the Polls. Witch may be do to Brakehaven's arrest in a hotel room last night after his financial records went public exposing his intricate web shuffling money between his secret accounts, City Hall, the Corps, Organised Crime, and several Street Gangs (which has also connected him to a long string of murders and domestic terrorist attacks). I love bringing down the RINO's.
Cain
QUOTE
Why is the van SAFE? Does the opposition not use detect hidden nodes, trace, etc? Do they never attempt to hack the van, block in the van, blow up the van? It is the tactics being used by the GM that makes the players ability to avoid combat possible.

Forgot this one. The team rigger keeps moving, so using Detect Hidden Node on him is even more difficult. He keeps a low profile, and uses areal drones to make sure no one is sneaking up on him. The team mage sometimes even assigns a spirit to guard the van. Since the decker also operates out of the van, Trace is difficult. And honestly, if someone ever got into a position where they could blow up the van, two points of Body wouldn't make a whit of difference: they'd use a missile, and no amount of body or personal armor would help with that.
Grinder
Did the last 25+ postings lead to anything other then exchanging opinions?
Cain
Sorry. Point is, orks aren't better at everything. Humans are very effective characters, especially if you're not looking at a front-line combatant.
Irion
QUOTE
But honestly, anyone dumb enough to simply stand there and take it deserves what they get.

Yes, obviously.
But the body 4 guy with maxed out armor won't care about the security guard with personalized skill wires and Reflex recorder shooting with wide burst of Gel rounds at him. (For about 6 Stun)
Because HE WON'T take any damage. (Even with reaction 1)
The guy with reaction 6 and body 1 will go down crying.

On the other hand no armor in the world is helping you, if somebody shoots at you with some gausrifle or a sniper rifle with explosive or armor penetrating amunition.
It always depends on what the GM throws at you.
If you play Shadowshoot, yes reaction is more important. If you play Shadowrun body is getting more important.

If your team is always in the offence, attack dice pools get more important. If you are the ones returing fire (or even not shooting at all) defencive pools get more important.
(And yes, there is no problem in building a team focused on getting in and out without a firefight. They will of course be drek in a firefight. But well, this does not do much, if the GM is throwing out Cybercombies as a security response anyway (for a low karma team of course))

Everything about Character optimisation is GM dependend. (Some GMs will for example make it impossible for the hacker to operate out of the van. At some tables everything bigger than a micro drone is out of question. Etc.)
It really depends on the table.
Cain
If you're playing Shadowrun, then running is the most important word.

Honestly, even a low-skill security guard can take down a Body 4 ork, assuming the ork doesn't go for cover or otherwise tries to avoid the shot. Lightly armored trolls will go down to EX ammo and a SMG. It doesn't take much to down a shadowrunner, regardless of armor or body. That's why not getting hit is paramount. Humans may not have the body that an ork has, but they don't need it, if their build is done right.

As for not shooting, every team should be able to do that as an option. You can be good at combat and be good at talking your way out of trouble. Given the fact that the opposition can bring in more force than you can handle (if only by calling Lone Star), being able to talk your way out of a pinch is a needed skill.
Korwin
QUOTE (Marvelous Marvin @ Jul 27 2011, 02:41 AM) *
Humans are the best edge masters. The guys that really aren't good at anything really save being the best in the world when it counts. No other race can get to 8 edge, pure and simple. And with 8 edge that's 8 dice you get to add to any roll 8 times during a run.


Nitpick: Pixie's too
Irion
Nothing of this really matters.
Orks get 2 points of strengh and 3 points of body for 25 BP.
Humans get 1 point of Edge for 0 BP.
An ork is paying 35 BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
A human is paying 70BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
So lets get this straight: If your table is using the rules in the book, that edge is refreshed one point at a time, high edge is not helping much, since the regeneration of edge in independant.
So if you are not going for at least edge 6, the point of edge is worth nothing for a human.
If you roll a lot of dices, the edge is worth less.
If you are not able to always hide than the body is getting important.
If your GM is using the rules for carrying stuff, strengh 1 does not look that good, now. Does it?

So yes, if your edge refreshes completly, there are just a few rolls in between, strenght and body are not so important because of the style you play, yes under this circumstances a human is equal to an ork, and MR Edge is even better.

But you may construct a situation to the opposit too.

QUOTE
Honestly, even a low-skill security guard can take down a Body 4 ork, assuming the ork doesn't go for cover or otherwise tries to avoid the shot.

Depends on the security guard, the weapon and the ork.
If the security guard has only a base damage of 4 and no armor penetration and the ork got himself a trauma damper it does not look that good. (Thinking only about an armor of 8 points)
Traul
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 27 2011, 07:32 AM) *
On the other hand no armor in the world is helping you, if somebody shoots at you with some gausrifle or a sniper rifle with explosive or armor penetrating amunition.

To be fait, Reaction is not helping here either since the shooter can almost be in another continent. When you see a Gauss rifle and it's not for sale, you should start wondering what you fucked up so badly and the answer is probably "took the pizza slice the GM wanted" grinbig.gif
Grinder
Irion, you don't get it, do you? To make it clear: you, Cain, suoq, TJ, and the rest isn't having a discussion here; you're just repeating your own opinions over and over again. We don't need that anymore. Nobody will "win" here by repeating his point over and over again.So please stop it before the tone becomes aggressive and/ or annoying.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
Meh, I'm inclined to say that those opinions are directly related to whether humans are unDERpowered. Well...

The numbers really speak for themselves, so that's been done to death, too, and then there's really nothing left to discuss.

Now fixing humans is another question, but that again is very table dependant, and will hardly find a consensus, either.
Grinder
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Jul 27 2011, 02:00 PM) *
Meh, I'm inclined to say that those opinions are directly related to whether humans are unDERpowered. Well...


Yeah, that at leat.

QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Jul 27 2011, 02:00 PM) *
The numbers really speak for themselves, so that's been done to death, too, and then there's really nothing left to discuss.


That's it. Repating one's opinion on the topic doesn't add any value to this thread, as no one is willing to really think about the opinion of the other posters.
suoq
- response deleted. The people I'd like to read the response should, in theory, still be able to. wink.gif
X-Kalibur
As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game. I'm just tossing in my 2 nuyen really quick Grinder, futile though it may be.

Orks are discriminated against, heavily. Leaving out the stupid Orxploitation nonsense, which I mention mostly because it appears to me they are treated much worse than the blacks of 1970's America. So you get extra body and strength for a lessened cost? Okay, that's super, but you're now an Ork. All those humans you think you are better than? Most of them, at the very least, don't like you. You are a pariah, and I'm not just talking about the lowered Charisma cap. Trolls only have it mildly better because they are fragging huge and nobody wants to mess with them. At least I know that generally speaking, walking about in Seattle with my human character, I'm not going to get hassled or jumped by Humanis Policlub, given dirty looks by non-metas, or harrassed by law enforcement.

<slots credstick for 2 nuyen>
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I agree with X-Calibur on his above post.

The balancing factors for the Metatypes/Variants, Infected, Sentients and Changelings are the social drawbacks of the Shadowrun Universe. Unfortunately, these are not "Hard Numbers" that can be mechanically enforced (It is Fluff, not Mecahnics). At a table that downplays the Discrimination, Bigotry and Prejudices of Shadowrun, these races have fewer drawbacks than at a table that enforces the Social Fluff.

Anyways... sarcastic.gif

X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2011, 08:38 AM) *
I agree with X-Calibur on his above post.

The balancing factors for the Metatypes/Variants, Infected, Sentients and Changelings are the social drawbacks of the Shadowrun Universe. Unfortunately, these are not "Hard Numbers" that can be mechanically enforced (It is Fluff, not Mecahnics). At a table that downplays the Discrimination, Bigotry and Prejudices of Shadowrun, these races have fewer drawbacks than at a table that enforces the Social Fluff.

Anyways... sarcastic.gif


DWO - Driving While Ork ohplease.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 27 2011, 02:07 AM) *
Nothing of this really matters.
Orks get 2 points of strengh and 3 points of body for 25 BP.
Humans get 1 point of Edge for 0 BP.
An ork is paying 35 BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
A human is paying 70BP for strength 3, body 4 and Edge 2.
So lets get this straight: If your table is using the rules in the book, that edge is refreshed one point at a time, high edge is not helping much, since the regeneration of edge in independant.
So if you are not going for at least edge 6, the point of edge is worth nothing for a human.
If you roll a lot of dices, the edge is worth less.
If you are not able to always hide than the body is getting important.
If your GM is using the rules for carrying stuff, strengh 1 does not look that good, now. Does it?


For the record, I don't agree with any of the stuff after "Let's get this straight." In the grand scheme of things, there's cheaper ways of accomplishing a lot of the things that strength and body do, so having a low natural strength or body isn't a big deal given the low cost of muscle augs--33 points for equivalent stats but less prejudice and higher Charisma and Edge caps is definitely a fair deal for Faces-- or gaining a second or third point of Strength or Body in play with karma. Further, having a high Edge attribute is useful given that rerolling misses is only useful if you have a decent dice pool to begin with. When dealing with weird outliers or situations that are outside of your expertise, a high Edge is demonstrably better than a low Edge, even with incremental refreshes since each use of Edge is calculated with your full attribute. If anything, I find high Edge less useful at tables where it is refreshed often.

Again, I actually like having a good body score but the absolute terms people keep trucking in is tiresome.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 27 2011, 10:10 AM) *
DWO - Driving While Ork ohplease.gif


Heh... Indeed... smile.gif
suoq
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 27 2011, 11:25 AM) *
As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game.
We discussed racism earlier, so no, we're not ONLY looking at numbers. Please see http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1087692 for my reply to your point, since you appear to be claiming I never posted it in the first place.

"The Orcs got a thing they call Orc Pride. Humans got the numbers. Trolls don't even need knives. Makes you wonder who has the power, the Orcs, the Humans, or the corps in their towers". - Ice-D
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 27 2011, 11:25 AM) *
As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game. I'm just tossing in my 2 nuyen really quick Grinder, futile though it may be.

Orks are discriminated against, heavily. Leaving out the stupid Orxploitation nonsense, which I mention mostly because it appears to me they are treated much worse than the blacks of 1970's America. So you get extra body and strength for a lessened cost? Okay, that's super, but you're now an Ork. All those humans you think you are better than? Most of them, at the very least, don't like you. You are a pariah, and I'm not just talking about the lowered Charisma cap. Trolls only have it mildly better because they are fragging huge and nobody wants to mess with them. At least I know that generally speaking, walking about in Seattle with my human character, I'm not going to get hassled or jumped by Humanis Policlub, given dirty looks by non-metas, or harrassed by law enforcement.

<slots credstick for 2 nuyen>


As pointed out it was talked about. It is table dependent not only in if it occurs but who it occurs to. For example in one game I played in recently humans and elves had the most problems because of the places we normally ran/lived. We just dealt with orcs and trolls more than anyone else thanks to where things were happening and how the adventures were structured. I pretend SR4s Tir Tangerine(Tairngire) doesn't exist but a game set there has different racial pressures.
UmaroVI
It's really more accurate to say that you benefit from having a racially diverse group with more than one "Face." Our regular group has a Mr. Lucky variant human primary face / secondary street samurai, an elf technomancer/secondary face, and a troll mage/secondary face. Usually the human does the talking (because he has more dice) and one or both of the others provide teamwork, but sometimes (like when dealing with the Sons of Sauron) the troll does the talking, and other times (like when dealing with elf supremacists) the elf does the talking.
Cain
That helps, but the fact is, a dryad face or pornomancer has the dice to overcome just about any penalty. Some of it depends on roleplay and cleverness, but a lot of it is having a huge dice pool and playing to it. For example, if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty. And the Critical Success rules being what they are, she gets to narrate in whatever details she likes, so the guy would pass out afterwards, giving them a clean break.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 27 2011, 02:16 PM) *
For example, if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty. And the Critical Success rules being what they are, she gets to narrate in whatever details she likes, so the guy would pass out afterwards, giving them a clean break.


See, this is where you and I would disagree... Social Skills are not an "I Win" button, regardless of how many Dice you throw around. There are some things that some people just will not do, regardless of a situation. smile.gif
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2011, 11:19 PM) *
See, this is where you and I would disagree... Social Skills are not an "I Win" button, regardless of how many Dice you throw around. There are some things that some people just will not do, regardless of a situation. smile.gif


This reminds me of a ridiculous b-movie sequel I dropped in on on TV once, supposedly to "John Carpenter's Vampires", which even had Jon Bon Jovi in it. So this group of hunters are in the wilderness, camping at a cave, and one of them (the braindead alibi black guy) is guarding the van, when a hot babe comes a long, and proceeds to give him a blowjob, which he obviously thinks it's a really good idea to go along with. I mean... what the bloody fuck? eek.gif ohplease.gif
suoq
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 27 2011, 04:16 PM) *
if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty.

The very act of a female dryad attempting to seduce a humanis goon while being tied up is likely to end... badly for the dryad.

Yes, she has a lot of dice. On the other hand, he's also likely to fail his willpower roll to resist, well, let's not go into any detail about what he's resisting. But this is definately one of those cases I would warn the player against using "Seduction".

I think of all the possible scenarios, this may be the one least appropriate for a public forum. The alternative to how your table would be run is... unpleasant.
sabs
It would probably end in a beating and the R word.
Though, he might untie her first, so .. it might lead to an opening.
Mardrax
Commanding Voice will likely prevent too nasty a result from the seduction.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jul 27 2011, 06:41 PM) *
Commanding Voice will likely prevent too nasty a result from the seduction.


The Effect of Commanding Voice lasts exactly 1 Action, no More... Don't really think it is going to make any difference in the above scenario.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 28 2011, 03:20 AM) *
The Effect of Commanding Voice lasts exactly 1 Action, no More... Don't really think it is going to make any difference in the above scenario.

Nothing prevents you from spamming it though. Just hope you have more IPs than the target. nyahnyah.gif
PoliteMan
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 28 2011, 01:25 AM) *
As usual, everyone is only looking at the pure numbers in a roleplaying game. I'm just tossing in my 2 nuyen really quick Grinder, futile though it may be.

Orks are discriminated against, heavily. Leaving out the stupid Orxploitation nonsense, which I mention mostly because it appears to me they are treated much worse than the blacks of 1970's America. So you get extra body and strength for a lessened cost? Okay, that's super, but you're now an Ork. All those humans you think you are better than? Most of them, at the very least, don't like you. You are a pariah, and I'm not just talking about the lowered Charisma cap. Trolls only have it mildly better because they are fragging huge and nobody wants to mess with them. At least I know that generally speaking, walking about in Seattle with my human character, I'm not going to get hassled or jumped by Humanis Policlub, given dirty looks by non-metas, or harrassed by law enforcement.

I'm sympathetic to this, I can just imagine some player arguing,

"Look, Ghouls are awesome. You get a ton of stat boosts for cheap and all that prejudice stuff is just fluff, there's no mechanic for it. And heck, if we run in Asamondo, all the other guys are going to be suffering that prejudice. I'm telling you man, why wouldn't you go ghoul?"

The problem is that racism generally goes over poorly at the table. Assuming you don't offend someone, and assuming the PC is okay with it, then everyone else has to sit back while the spotlight is on Troll. It's just not something I've seen at a lot of tables because there are very few people who want to roleplay a situation where they're a victim of racism. And if they do, and they want to roleplay it regularly, it's just kind of uncomfortable for everyone else.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jul 28 2011, 04:30 AM) *
Nothing prevents you from spamming it though. Just hope you have more IPs than the target. nyahnyah.gif

Admittedly, there's the cumulative -2, but a proper leadermancer shouldn't have too much trouble making it to 15ish uses before racking up the penalties to a point where they become meaningful. Add in Heightened Concentration and Adept Centering for additional cheesey flavour. wobble.gif
Glyph
Fantasy racism should exist, and be used when it adds to the game's atmosphere or enjoyment. Care should, of course, be used. But it has no business being used as a "balancing factor". Hey, your metatype gets a net bonus, so I'm going to go out of my way to make the game less fun for you. No. Just... no.
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2011, 01:19 PM) *
See, this is where you and I would disagree... Social Skills are not an "I Win" button, regardless of how many Dice you throw around. There are some things that some people just will not do, regardless of a situation. smile.gif

In this situation, I'd be inclined to give it to the player. The dryad in question only came up once in game, and the stories about that person are not fit for a public forum. However, a combination of roleplay and a disgusting dice pool counts for a lot, and should count for a lot, in any game. She portrayed the situation convincingly, thus opening the door for the roleplay and the dice roll. Sure, I probably wouldn't have let a troll use Intimidate in that same situation, regardless of dice pool. (And I have a house rule that you can use Strength instead of Charisma for Intimidate, so trolls are actually good at scaring people.)

Social skills aren't an auto win at my table, but they are very powerful. I'm forbidden from using Commanding Voice on my players ever again, after a Leadermancer got away from them for the third time.
Critias
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 27 2011, 09:37 PM) *
Fantasy racism should exist, and be used when it adds to the game's atmosphere or enjoyment. Care should, of course, be used. But it has no business being used as a "balancing factor". Hey, your metatype gets a net bonus, so I'm going to go out of my way to make the game less fun for you. No. Just... no.

While I don't strongly disagree, I'd argue that as long as that's made clear in advance to folks wanting to play that (hypothetical) metatype, why not? I'm not necessarily saying that's the case with Orks and other core Shadowrun races...but the more exotic metavariants, for instance, are (in theory) partially balanced by racism, as are the Infected. If shouldn't ever be used to ambush a player character with a bait and switch (offering them a super awesome race, then only revealing to them that the super awesome race is reviled by all once gameplay has started)...but in cases where metaracism is a known factor, I don't see the issue.

If someone wants to play a fantasy ork because it's stronger and tougher than a fantasy human, knowing that the adventure's going to take place in human lands (and they'll face some trouble for it), why not? Or drow, or a human in an elf game, or a Viking outside of his home realms, or whatever? Folks who knowingly sign up for it in advance likely don't see it as "less fun," do they?

Hell, I live for it when a couple uppity round-ears mouth off to one of my Shadowrun PCs with talk about daisy-eaters, fairies, and keeblers. wink.gif
Glyph
I think racism should be part of the overall quasi-dystopian atmosphere. Yeah, it can be fun, but citing it as a "balancing" factor gives off the wrong vibe to me. It feels like the GM is saying he feels compelled to make an ork's life harder to compensate for him getting those Body and Strength increases. Maybe I'm being too sensitive, after listening to all of the passive-aggressive GMs on the threads about negative qualities (you know, the ones who allow sensitive system, only to have your character kidnapped and forcibly implanted with cyberware in some contrived situation).

But honestly, I don't think racism is even supposed to be a balancing factor - it would be stated more explicitly, if that were truly the case. It's simply part of the overall noir atmosphere. I certainly don't think that GMs who don't play it up are cutting metatypes an unintended break or anything, as some people are saying.
Cain
Having had faced real-world racism (and recently, disability prejudice) I can safely say that it's a balancing act. Orks and trolls do need a mechanical penalty to offset their bonuses; trolls do have them, in the form of metahuman adjustment costs. Orks are less so, and I don't often see them, but I have made orks feel the squeeze of trying to fit into booths at restaurants and other made-for-human places. I've been known to inflict a small penalty for big orks trying to operate small equipment. Which is actually fair: my roommate is 6'6, 400 lbs, and sometimes does work as an auto mechanic. He has a lot of trouble working on small engines, because of his size.

Here's an example to consider. Thanks to the ADA, all public places have to be adjusted for people with disabilities. Now, how many of you have actually tried to push a wheelchair up a ramp? Or gimp up stairs in crutches? It's not as easy as it looks. The world simply isn't made for you if you're not a certain height. Orks should have to face that.
Irion
QUOTE
but the more exotic metavariants, for instance, are (in theory) partially balanced by racism, as are the Infected.

Thats so not true for the infected.
The infected go two directions:
First: Ignore.
Second: Kill the character.

I think this has been talked about here several times, and most agreed that if they would be staying in character most of their characters would shoot the infected character, just to be on the save side.
You do not work together with someone considering you dinner.
Critias
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 28 2011, 02:02 AM) *
Thats so not true for the infected.
The infected go two directions:
First: Ignore.
Second: Kill the character.

I think this has been talked about here several times, and most agreed that if they would be staying in character most of their characters would shoot the infected character, just to be on the save side.
You do not work together with someone considering you dinner.

Uhh, yes. I'd say being considered a "shoot on sight" to quite a few NPCs (and even some PCs) would count as, y'know, something that's a bit of a balancer. In fact, I'd wager that quite a few Infected characters have never been made for just that very reason, which means it's balancing quite nicely, and like it should, in my opinion. wink.gif
Traul
QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 28 2011, 06:41 AM) *
but the more exotic metavariants, for instance, are (in theory) partially balanced by racism, as are the Infected.

It is more rarity than racism, and it is stated out: all the weird folks get Distinctive Style for free.
Cain
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 28 2011, 02:17 AM) *
It is more rarity than racism, and it is stated out: all the weird folks get Distinctive Style for free.

Distinctive Style is not the same as racism. Just because you stand out doesn't mean you face prejudice and hatred.

I know someone who is truly albino. He goes around with an Islamic woman's headwrap all the time, because even cloudy sunlight can cause severe burns. He's distinctive, and sometimes gets flak by idiots who think he's a muslim. But that's not the same thing as facing real prejudice and bigotry.
Korwin
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 27 2011, 10:16 PM) *
For example, if a female dryad pornomancer wanted to seduce the Humanis goon into untying her, so they could have a quick tryst, she'd pull it off even with a racism penalty.

Bad example? Why untie her? If it was my NPC, he would'nt even try to resist. Maybe an check if he wants to invite an friend...

QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 27 2011, 10:16 PM) *
And the Critical Success rules being what they are, she gets to narrate in whatever details she likes, so the guy would pass out afterwards, giving them a clean break.

She has such an high Agi or Rea and Acrobatics (or Body and Endurance?), too?

But maybe, I should read the Critical Success rules wink.gif
Cain
QUOTE
Bad example? Why untie her? If it was my NPC, he would'nt even try to resist. Maybe an check if he wants to invite an friend...

It was the way the situation was presented. The roleplay was convincing, the dice pool was astronomical, so why screw over the player?
QUOTE
She has such an high Agi or Rea and Acrobatics (or Body and Endurance?), too?

But maybe, I should read the Critical Success rules wink.gif

According to the critical success rule, the player gets to narrate in whatever cool details they like, and the GM cannot override them. Someone scoring an overwhelming success on a seduction test can fairly narrate in a lot of details not appropriate for a public forum. Saying the guy passed out is well within reason. Honestly, it could have been a lot more graphic than that.
suoq
It's interesting to read a page after denying that one's table style has anything to do with the balance they've experienced, how that same person has changed their table style to add in one-directional racism and extend the Size Customization rules (SR4A 310) past where they are in the books in order to achieve the balance they claimed was there.

Yes. If there is prejudice against orcs AND no reverse prejudice against humans and everything is sized for human comfort and less comfortable for elves and orcs and players can play to their strengths and avoid their weaknesses, then humans become not only a valid choice, but the preferred choice.

-----------

Can I request we find another example other than a tied up dryad pornomancer seducing a humanis goon before this crosses the "No sexually explicit or offensive material" line? Because it's really a choice between a bad porn movie and a snuff film and I'm not comfortable with either on a public forum.

Edit: Never mind. Too late.
Traul
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 28 2011, 10:29 AM) *
Distinctive Style is not the same as racism.

Who said it is? Distinctive Style is the balancing factor that comes with the exotic types. Racism is not.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Korwin @ Jul 28 2011, 10:51 AM) *
Bad example? Why untie her? If it was my NPC, he would'nt even try to resist. Maybe an check if he wants to invite an friend...


Maybe she's trying to convince him that she give really good head, and for that, you need your hands free.


On a side note, I'm consindering disallowing "Human looking" for any of the non-standard metavariants. You want that free Ogre stomach? Here you go, but you'll keep your Shrek looks.
Cain
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 28 2011, 03:15 AM) *
Who said it is? Distinctive Style is the balancing factor that comes with the exotic types. Racism is not.

Racism is supposedly part of the package. It's part of the game world, even if it doesn't have a mechanical factor. Distinctive Style really only comes into play when you're tracking the person down, so it's only a penalty when you've already messed up and people know you're responsible. Really, metavariants should get racism plus; try being a gay black man in a conservative area today. Or, in my case, being a minority male dating a white girl; you get all kinds of stares in even liberal neighborhoods.
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