It hurts me when you call boxes of Condition Monitor 'hit points'. But yes, Body is less useless than some are implying. And, once again, Str of *at least* 3 (maybe 2) never hurt any career criminal.

if you're REALLY determined to use Strength as a limiting factor in melee, the more appropriate response would be to run a variation of the carrying rules and add to each weapon a Heft stat. Larger weapons would require more strength to use, such as broadswords, glaives, mauls, etc. Smaller weapons, such as knives, short swords, and gnomes, wouldn't require nearly as much strength. No matter HOW strong you are, you still need to be able to maneuver that weapon to make the most out of it, leaving Agility as the key stat for attacking. With heft, you could penalize the attack pool of somebody with insufficient strength to wield what they claim to wield just as easily as you penalize somebody who's carrying more gear than they can lift.

With regards to using lighter weight materials for melee weapons to make them easier to lift and swing, you'd logically have to penalize DV on them, as weight of a blade or striking head is part of what grants its ability to do such damage.

Make Strength a serious requirement for bigger guns? On the one hand, that brings in troll-pistols (known as heavy rifles by other people..), on the other hand it makes holdouts and tasers attractive to weaklings.

Part of the reason Strength is so marginal is that it only gets used in close combat, or when you have to do Athletics without the 'ware that gives heaps of cheap bonuses to it. If more people need Strength, even ranged characters, it stops being quite so marginal.

There is already an optional rule for reduction of Recoil with high strength, but I agree. The thing is, how to decide what way to do it?

FOr melee weapons, I would argue that in order to use a weapon, you should have strength equal to twice the reach.

Make a table, sorting guns into "weight classes"; if your Strength is less than the weight class, you suffer a -2 to hit, similar to being Encumbered. Unless you're using some sort of tripod or something to handle the weight, of course, but that's awkward in a running battle.

End result: you want a Strength of 4-6 to handle heavier guns comfortably, and there are (ridiculous, scary) guns available that can only be used well by those with Strength 7+ (such as the troll-mounted ballista.)

I mean, ever notice how army guys tend to be more muscular than typical people? and you could have scenes of frail elf damsels knocking themselves down when they try to fire a Ruger Super Warhawk..

Can that troll Backstab with that Ballista? Cause if so that would be awesome..

At your table perhaps, but I rarely, if ever, use it as a Dump Stat, personally.

Those rules roughly, crudely exist for Heavy Weapons in Arsenal. Not the Strength=>RC rule, the 'if your body and strength aren't high enough, take stun damage' ones. I agree, though, that more general and elegant rules could certainly apply to small arms.

I have been firing .44 Magnums since I was a pre-teen (I have owned one since I was 10). It does not take a lot of strength to fire one accurately. That goes for weapons all the way up to a .50 Barrett. Strength has very little to do with it if you are employing good technique. Body type and proper technique are actually more important than muscles in that regard. Strength WILL help with control of Recoil, to be sure, but I would say that your Body type is more important.

Fire… and carry. And run from cops, with loots. Also, I don't really believe you, not for the Super Warhawk, and the huge sniper rifles.

Your choice...
Sniper rifles are not fired from the standing position, so strengh is a non-issue once set up.
The Ruger Super Warhawk is just a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum, nothing more.

Yes, Carrying it (Ruger Super Blackhawk/Redhawk/Warhawk) on your hip is a chore, but again, it is not Strength that resolves that, but Body. To make it a bit easier, I cut my Barrel from 7.5" to 4 5/8th" to shorten the barrel. Gave it a bigger Kick, but easier to carry, as holster does not need to be as long. Carried it for Hunting Purposes, not on the Streets... On the Street, I prefer either a Glock or Colt 1911 (or Clone).

Now, carrying a Sniper rifle into Combat can be cumbersome, which is why the vast majority of Snipers DO NOT carry a .50 BMG type weapon. They are (almost) all variations on Hunting Rifles currently in Production. As such, they are not reallly all that heavy.

As much as I like the Idea of a Barrett Sniper Rifle, I would never actually choose one (to damned heavy), not even in the Game. My Preferred Sniper rifle is the Ed Brown Marine Sniper Custom, or the HK-PSG (of course, there are lots of good choices out there). In Game I prefer the HK-PSG1.

Of course, Personal Preference Varies...

I'd just as soon fold Body and Strength into one attribute rather than try gin up more bennies for Strength. I don't have the motivation to, but if I did, that'd be the direction I'd go.

Back to dumpstatting for a second....

As per RAW, strength is the best one to dumpstat. If you don't plan on getting into melee, then you don't need it at all. Heck, if you don't plan on knocking out people in melee, you don't need it; you can still get an effective melee defense with a very weak Strength. There's really no other RAW reason to raise strength. And even wandering into house rule territory, making a minimum strength requirement for certain weapons doesn't help: usually, in my games, only trolls are interested in the big melee weapons anyway, so they already have the strength to deal with those sort of things. If you absolutely need to hit someone in melee and have a crap strength but decent quickness, you can always fall back on shock gloves: your strength doesn't matter. Heck, if you really want to melee, grab some skill in exotic weapon: monowhip-- you deal a ton of damage without any strength at all.

Charisma is not such a smart one to dumpstat. It forms the basis for your resistance to social combat; and the way the critical success rules are written, someone with a Charisma of 1 is more likely to be hit by the "Mind control" aspect of social skills. A critical success vs critical botch would come close, at least in my games.

Reaction is the basis of your entire physical defense, and factors into your initiative. Bad idea to dumpstat.

Quickness is the core of your physical combat ability. You can soften things here, if you're not going to be relying on physical combat; but anything less than a 3 is asking for trouble if you do have to shoot someone.

Intuition is linked to two critical things: your Perception, and your initiative. Bad idea to skimp here.

Logic can be dumpstatted, but at a cost. Almost every knowledge skill is logic-linked, so you lose in that area. I make frequent use of "common knowledge" rolls, so a low logic can hurt you there as well. You can be a scriptkiddie decker without logic, but the extra you need to spend in programs offsets the costs of dumpstatting somewhat.

Willpower: as with Charisma, it forms your basis for a lot of defenses, including social and magical combat. Going too soft here means you'll fall for anything.

What's that leave us with? Body. Body isn't the ideal attribute to dumpstat, but you can get away with it. Taking a soft body of 2 is practicable, since damage resistance tests rely on armor just as much as body; and wearing heavy armor gets you too much attention. A body of 3 is better, if only for the extra hit point; but you can get away with it if you plan carefully.

2 Things...

This Quickness you keep talking about. What is this thing you speak of?

The problem with shorting your Body is that you are then restricted to wearing less armor. You cannot have a Low Body and High Armor, it just does not work out that way. You want decent Armor, you need decent body. Note that I am not talking about having a Body of 6+ here. But a standard Armored Longcoat is 6/4. To wear that with no penalties, you need a Body of 3+. Armor 6/4 is really the absolute minimum you want to be wearing on a 'Run.

Could always convince the GM to let you go with the optional rule of "Not encumbered by armor if what you are wearing is one item, ie that Longcoat."

Not a fan of blindly allowing no encumbrance when wearing a single article of armor. Not a house rule I use, either.

But one could use a full suit of FFBA with a Body of 2. Kinda limited on what you can add for ballistic protection after that, but you could add most of the PPP items and have armor at least at 7/5 and no encumbrance (and practically unnoticeable underneath your regular clothing). The ratings could be potentially higher, depending on how a GM rules the armor mods with FFBA.

Softcheese the FFBA to get some more leverage. Although a low Body character is likely to have low Strength as well.

Do note Softweave is an excellent way of making Strength meaningful outside of hurting people.

You're going to have to explain that one to me because I'm not seeing it. If by "meaningful" you mean encouraging people to have a 2 instead of a 1, sure, but that's not exactly what I call "meaningful".

3 strength will drop a Softweave polar survival suit for instance down from counting as 3/1 encumbrance to counting as 0/1 encumbrance, which neatly adds on top of the generally low Impact armor of a FFB, which counts as 3/1 encumbrance in itself. Giving you a total of 3/1+6/2 =9/3 armor, for a total of 0/1+3/1 = 3/2 encumbrance, to be rounded out to 3/3 with PPP, and some even number with whatever you feel like stacking on top. A point of limb armor comes to mind. 10/5 armor on a Body 2 character is very nice indeed, like 12/7 on a Body 3. He'll need the 3 Strength for it though.

If you're not a shooter, the penalty to Quickness can be dealt with. It's the Reaction penalty that's the problem; but assuming Body 2 and Armor 6, you actually gain one defensive die that way. This is a worthwhile move to consider for mages and others who don't rely on physical attacks. Riggers, especially: they can wear full body armor while in their cocoon, and never have to worry about getting hit or losing combat effectiveness.

@Mardrax
And why not just leave strength at 2 and take a body of 3?

At least until their ride gets killed. Good luck running from that one.

That's why you always keep a backup ride handy. But honestly, if your heavily-armored van gets blown up that well, you're probably dead no matter what you're wearing.

This whole obsession with armor is getting ludicrous in the first place. This isn't TankRun. It doesn't fit the fluff all that well for everyone to be happily strolling along, even while shot multiple times. Getting shot should be scary. Should make you want to stick to the shadows.

What I'm getting at is, overemphasizing resilience isn't the way to go. Sure, you want to walk away from a fight with security guards, but in the end you're supposed to be avoiding combat with the heavyweights anyway.

A healthy Intuition+Reaction, to win initiative and high Agility+Firearms (or Magic, or...) to quickly gun down the most threatening enemies in the first IP, then some IP boosters to mop up the rest, and quick First Aid, should be the way to go.

With medium armoring, you should be able to survive 1-2 hits from normal shooters, although it'll hurt. Drawn out firefights are a losing situation anyway.

And that's why humans aren't underpowered. Body is important, you shouldn't completely dumpstat it; but it's not the be-all and end-all of combat. Quickness is much more important, as is Reaction.

For the record: when I started the most recent SR4.5 game, the troll's player came in with a character designed by the local munchkin. The munchkin has since been banned from my table; but the troll he handed me had all 1's in his mental stats.

I looked at the player. He's a special needs guy, so he requires extra patience. "Are you sure about this?"

"Yep, I'm sure."

"Ohhhkay, then."

Now, since he's a special needs guy, I can't set out to make his life miserable. I can, however, show him exactly how bad his choice was. Even with counterspelling, magic takes him down fast. His stun damage track is crappy, so the hold-out with stick-n-shock dropped him in a hurry. He can stand up to sustained rocket fire, but even low-force spirits can ruin his day with mind-affecting powers. He has learned since, and has spent all his earned karma boosting his mental stats.

You're preaching pacifism at a gunshow mate. There's people getting off on 'look at my soakpool.' Regardless of flavour.
Although, that big frakkin troll taking gunshots and not even flinching is flavoury as well. It might not be your Shadowrun, but pink mohawk tends to dig it. Need it to survive, even. *shrug* To each his own, eh?


Flavour!
Also, cybermuscle is cheap, as opposed to cyberBody, which even tends to be forbidden.

Muscle Augmentation bioware is good value for money yeah. You could safely start with STR2, and if it turns out STR actually matters in the campaign, just buy an upgrade.

Ok, late to the game.

As a GM I require all players to take at least one point in every stat except edge and magic (automatically spend 80 bps). This cuts down on some of the worst min-maxing and creates a reasonable character who can default on most skills. I do prefer the Karma generation at this time, but again I require 1 additional point in each of the base stats, which seems to even out the races.

The other point for humans is it is like having the quality bland (try getting that quality with a troll and see how well it works out). In 90% of the situations humans blend in. Trolls have a very small community and being large makes it a huge pain to hide plus they are huge so they have other issues. Orks and trolls do not make the ideal spellcaster or technomancers.

Now edge does make a huge difference. I tend to go with the optional rule that your dice gain is based upon your unspent edge. Even if you don't then when you need to spend edge that final point can be the difference between success or failure. Try it with an extended test by putting the difference in BP cost into more edge for the human and you see players can really do more damage to the game if they are human (enchanting, equipmemnt design/modifications, etc.).

Example
Ork/dwarf edge 1 Human edge 3
Elf edge 1 Human edge 5
Troll edge 1 human edge 6

Then pick an extended test with similar build points into said stat and identical skills. In most cases ignoring strength or body tests the human will come out ahead if edge is used. They can also have some edge left in reserve.

Yeah, okay, see, now at that table, humans would be dead to me. Like, Rasputin dead. Well, with bp generation, anyway.

1) Define "medium armoring". Since 6/4 contains possibly the widest range of useful armors, I consider that the sweet spot, requiring 3 body. With the addition of FFBA, an extra 1 body (for a total of 4) seemed a worthwhile investment for the extra armor FFBA provides. With softweave, I can accept 2 body and all armor softweaved or 3 body with all softweave and FFBA, but personally, I still like that body 4 sweet spot for just getting armor off the shelf or for going with the softweave armor jacket and FFBA (something I consider more than "medium armoring").

2) Even with cover, indirect fire hurts. Hurting impacts the ability to hurt back and leaves blood behind for DNA and magic. Armor prevents hurting.

3) Even in the shadows, a firefight only happens when someone shoots. If you are the unaware target in the opening round, armor pays off.

---------------------------

Every time I read "Quickness" in this thread I twinge.

Medium would be the 6-11 total ballistic armor range (assuming FFBA). I don't have War!, so I can't speak about the softweave.

My favorite is the Auctioneer Business Suit along with FFBA, which requires Body 4; a bit more buff than the average Joe, but nothing excessive.



Your point being? I never said you should try to get shot at.




If you're caught unaware (as in, couldn't Edge the surprise test), you're DEAD. Because anyone who is good enough to sneak up on you (given typical PC Perception levels, which are quite high) will certainly kill you with a single shot if you can't even dodge. And they'll probably use some sort of sneaky weapon to do it too, like SnS.

Surprise kills.

You stated: "This whole obsession with armor is getting ludicrous in the first place. This isn't TankRun.".
Now, I'm not sure what you meant by "obsession with armor" because as far as I can see, the armor discussion has simply been a debate about how much body is preferred for basic armor with the lower limit being "1" (human minimum) and the upper level of the discussion being "4" (orc minimum).

If, as you later say, you're preference is for a body of 4 for basic armor, then you're on the high side (the same side you appear to be calling "ludicrous" and calling "TankRun").

The reason for the armor discussion, in case you were just skimming, is that from a numerical perspective, humans are at a disadvantage to orcs unless they're dumpstatting body and/or strength OR they need to hardcap (at human maximum) edge. In your case, since you prefer a body of 4 (orc minimum), it's hard to make a human (again, from a numerical perspective) cost effective.

I like Body 4, but 3 will do. I wouldn't want to dump body though. I've seen what happened to the (Body 2) Reaction-oriented Adept when they used wide bursts against him...

Dumping Strength seems fine with me. It's the 21st century, Strength is for backwards people; we have robots for heavy lifting, and shock gloves for hand-to-hand.

What I meant with TankRun is that people seem to be seriously considering making a "Tank" character (mostly Troll), but to me that sounds a lot like making a character who's only really shining when things are going quite wrong. And even a really heavy tank shouldn't expect to last long if HTR gets going for real.



The point I'm trying to drive at is, that this discussion is obsessing about resilience, and yeah, Orks are good at that, but it's only a part of the game, and not necessarily the biggest part.

Like I said, dumpstatting Body (as in, Body of 1) is a bad idea. However, trading Willpower or Charisma for body is just as bad of an idea, as the troll demonstrated. Even though he's got a ton of soak dice, he doesn't have the stun condition points to really take much damage. Going soft on Body is perfectly workable, though. With a body of 2 and Suoq's "sweet spot" of 6/4, you actually gain one defensive die even with the Quickness and Reaction penalty. Since the dodge test and soak test do essentially the same thing (reduce the power of an attack), they amount to the same thing.

Ascapelus is also right that Body is not the optimal stat for Shadowrun combat. If you're going to fight at all in SR4.5, you need a high Quickness. That is your most important stat, as all your combat abilities, no matter what they are, are linked to it. It doesn't matter how tough you are; if you can't hit, you can't take down an enemy faster than they can take you down. Reaction is almost as important, since it factors into Initiative, and speed kills in Shadowrun. It's also your primary defense in SR4.5, so you can't cut that one. If you don't rely on physical combat, Reaction is actually more important than Quickness.

Really, the best stats to dump are strength and logic; with strength being a better choice. Orks can't dumpstat strength, so they're less useful in that regard. You can go soft on a few attributes, though, and body is one of them.

Can someone PLEASE give me a book and page number in Shadowrun 4.5 for this stat Cain keeps talking about?

Check the quickness with which I kick this.

He is obviously referring to agility which in past editions was combined with reaction to create quickness.

Yeah, sorry, the kicking thing? The bottomless hole to kick people into is still covered. The painters are still working on the roof. Seems some smarthoop told them we wanted a painting of "The Creation Of Adam" with Dwraves and Orks rather than just bare grey wireless defeating paint so they're taking forever.

Thank you! That helps immensely.

Ups, was wrong. Nothing to say here.

You know, all this talk of adding "balance" and "disadvantage"... You guys aren't trying to fix the blatant unfairness in my favourite rpg are you? That's against canon and I'm telling!

In my opinion if your going to be making the tank troll you really need to grab a pain editor, because your stun pool will really never be where it needs to be to keep up and extra stun resistance seems a lot harder to pick up.

I'm a grognard. I call it like it is. They didn't "split" it, they pointlessly renamed it. If you like classic Shadowrun you use the proper terms, not your newfangled stuff.

This is really getting childish.

Yep.