As it says on the tin, why dont we see them as CFs or is it just one that ppl thread since the stealth rolls are usually so high you can avoid a fight?

My GM is making detection rolls cumulative just because I can thread Stealth up to 8 or 9, so I intend to pick up some Black ICE soonest.

ok another (retarded) question: i seem to remember they can but cant find a ruling: technomancer cfs and options yes or no?

Yes they can. It's in Unwired. Can't remember the page, but I'd suspect it's under the Technomancer section. As I recall, each option takes a success on the Threading roll.

IC are agents. You have Sprites. ("Agents, IC, and autosofts may not be learned or used by technomancers.")

Options have their own rules, but yes, they can be CF-purchased, and threaded. Unwired p136 and p148.

But Blackout and BlackHammer are just Black programs, so they are perfectly useable. Not sure he really meant IC. Could be wrong, though.

so i can do a Data bomb cf with biofeedback and psychotropic options

yeah meant the progs not IC technically sry.

Correct... A "Black Pit" CF is acceptable...

What I thought... No Worries...

Not only is it acceptable, it's probably second only to HMMVV when it comes to guaranteed kills. Threading a data bomb up to R9 means the poor sod who triggers it gets to take 9d6 boxes, for an average of 31 boxes of physical damage. You Hand of God or your die.

As if Data Bombs weren't already incredible overpowered.

Yeah gods but Data Bombs are scary for Technomancers.. getting hit by one of those.. even if it is just a Plain Jane Matrix Damage bomb.. is going to HURT!

send in the cannon fodd... ahem sprites first is my motto.

yes but then again i tend to have the mo of swatting flies with automatic grenade launchers... gotta be sure you got them after all

Well as a techno you can't really databomb, databomb has to remain ont he system it's running on, since the only system you can run things on is you databombs complex formsare really only going to be useful against other resonant beings trying to hack your biological node.

I read it as being able to leave one on a file just as a normal one? After all sprites etc can run on other nodes. They just differ in how they are created.

A sprite is it's own specialized ball of fun. It's like your personna. Databombing files is the one thing that is actually by the rules closed to you, realistically it's closed to almost everyone as is order to leave a databomb on something you have to be able to upload a copy of the databomb application tot he target system and leave it running.

Think of it this way, databomb is the equivalent of leaving a physical bomb behind, as a technomancer none of your stuff with the exception of sprites stays behind or even works outside of the presence of your virtual avatar. Therefore nod databomb complex form.

Ya know i actually went and read through the book, and I'm spinning a yarn up there. By the rules there's nothing to prevent anyone from setting an unlimited number of databombs wherever. So a complex form of Data Bomb should cover things nicely. I'm a little disappointed by this fact.

Don't worry about it. There is really no reason that the Technomancer Databomb should not work the same way as a Hacker Databomb. There are already enough differences that you don't have to go inventing new ones. *shrug*

It's not so much a matter of the technomancer, more that there's no by the book limitations on where and when you can set a databomb. Lets say i hack into a system, by the rules I hack into said system I can lay a databomb on the system itself. Then when i trigger an ARC the oncoming security hackers hit the databomb, if they don't know the password I set and don't prescan their own system they likely hit the databomb I set. That has the potential to turn databomb from a defensive trap to an offensive weapon.

Which applies to both Normal Hackers and Technomancers, regardless of location. In fact, this is standard practice for Corps in our campaign. Corp personnel (who have access to the node) have the codes, and anyone else does not. Any hacking attempt usually ends badly for the hacker if he forgets to check for any Databombs and disable them.

I'm sure Technos can use a Databomb CF. The Databomb program leaves databomb files behind, so there's no issue of 'the program not working while you're gone'; the program was already used.

Not a bad idea. I've largely been overlooking Databombs, they seemed too weak (single use program)

With the Pavlov Option, they go off, and then reset. Now they are no longer a Single Use program.

Right, mostly i'm just thinking the ARC Scramble Security hacker is going to be house ruled to be immune to setting off databombs on the node itself. I'm just a little leery of letting my hackers lay traps for incoming security spiders.

And the program itself is inherently *infinite*-use. You can use it to set a new databomb every bloody action. It may well be the most ridiculous and overpowered thing in the entire matrix rules (that's saying something!), and Pavlov incredibly made it worse. Blah. You can even put them in other people's nodes. Jesus.

Yea that's what concerns me, for starters I would require at least security level access to set databombs.

It's actually why I liked the way i had it in my head better, in order to have a databomb set up on a system the system itself must be running the databomb program. I may just keep that. My players will likely thank me even if they loose a few dirty tricks.

Well, you're going to get sec/admin access anyway. You do already need to to modify certain files, which is what you're doing with Databomb, and I'd assume admin access is required to use it on a node directly (which includes the option to *crash the node* on trigger). Technically, I guess, the rules don't mention access permissions.

It raises an interesting loophole if allowed. I set a power one databomb with a response to crash the system. I tell one of my agents to log onto the system and give it the wrong password for the system. Bingo fast no/minimal test system crash.

Yup. So, it's obviously not allowed. Anyway, you should certainly require access privs to place databombs on files and nodes. Probably should also fundamentally change them, making them easier to disarm, or weaker, or both, and Pavlov doesn't exist. Why would you even legitimately need Pavlov, when an agent can replace it for free…

Maybe require players to remember the passwords for every last one, and if they're easy, maybe the enemy just guesses them.

Ha. Set a threshold for an edge+logic test, if you want something somewhat rules worthy.

I still think i like my system better in order to have databombs set up on the system you have to run the databomb program on the system itself. (Crashing the program does not remove the databombs). Also might allow a number of databombs limited by some multiple of the rating.

On the whole databombs are a really bad idea for all but the most secure/low traffic systems. Too easy to fry your brain or crash the security mainframe just because you havn't had coffee yet. I tend to use them sparingly.

Ooh, I almost forgot: they shouldn't do anything-d6 damage. Nothing in the game works like that. They should do Rating damage, *maybe* Rating*2.

Well if their rarer they can be more pucker factor inducing. It's just findign that balance. If everytime your turning around your finding a databomb with 20 some damage quickly makes the game unplayable.

As would I, as a Minimum. That only makes sense.

I like Rating*2 personally. The Rating(d6) damage is excessive, in my opinion. But with that, Hackers are a lot less likely to just zip through a system at whim. Most of the Databombs we encounter are in the Rating 3-5 Range, which are generally lethal, but are not impossible to disarm, since they can only get as many hits on their opposed test as their Program Rating. Of course, Hackers have the same issue, but Databomb Software generally has less dice to throw around (2*Rating) as compared to the Hackers Defuse Dice Pool (Skill+Logic+Bonuses).

i like the way this topic is going. Its pretty much what i envisioned. Playing a loner techno who hates the corps and runs around bombing (kind of the matrix version of the unibomber ).

The problem is as a techno you'll really hate it if your GM reciprocates the same way as you are significantly more susceptible to data bombs then most.

nah im preternaturally paranoid. I always send sprites first and analyze the hell out of the icons.

Ya know, if one of my players tried this, I'd quickly point out that it appears to be a very Dissonant thing to do. And most technomancers generally don't like Dissonants. Making an enemy out of your main source of potential allies is pretty suicidal.

That's great if your team isn't going to die if you don't get that door open right frigging now which is what i traditionally do to my hackers/technos if their taking forever, the trick is to find a balance between speed and safety.

didnt say i do it. but it appeals to me. I gm alot too and this would be a major way to teach the invincible matrix players to slow the hell down . But yeah I might do it as a PC if i had a vendetta etc.

if you are doing it simo though, the speeds in the matrix are waaay faster than in the meat so you can usually run both thing before the door opens in meat.

Lurker, I do appreciate your alternative (much rarer, dangerous, 'puckery' data bombs). Totally. I love the idea of the hacker sweating as he carefully searches for the bomb, carefully disarms it, etc., like a combination bombsquad/safecracker. Still, I feel like there are any number of dangerous and scary defenses already, so it's just easier (not 'better') to make the bombs more reasonable.

Another alternative is to (somehow) make databombs cheaper, 1-use programs. You buy the bomb, you set the bomb. The matrix equivalent of disposable LAW rockets (1000¥ a pop, but worth it), or, more literally, demolition booby traps. The fluff on this might be tricky, but I consider balance much more important anyway.

Sadly, SR4 introduced AR and removed the gray programs all in one go. End result is that the only people threatened by cybercombat are the dumb and the TM. The rest are trading one less pass (wired reflexes or adept) for immunity to black attacks. If the gray programs where still around, at least they would be sweating the loss of a "expensive" comlink. With AR your not even faced with dumpshock when the link goes into forced reboot.

yes but those really arent the ppl that are worried about it, were talking about technos and the serious opposition they will (should) face. besides if you want cheese the techno can always get the trodes and just mind rape them that way.

Requires physical contact tho...

Though the rules for resonance trodes don't actually do anything/make sense.

While they could certainly stand some clarification they seem to work. I've just been going witht he interpretation that usign resonance trodes is a non action, the power would be pretty worthless otherwise. The answer is just not to let a technomancer hug you.