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KarmaInferno
True. The main advantage of One Inch Punch is usually surprise.

As mentioned earlier, Mythbusters did some testing and found that it generated about half the force of a full-swing punch. So, enough to stagger an opponent, especially if he wasn't expecting it.




-k
Blitz66
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 21 2011, 06:01 PM) *
Sort of like how plenty of convincing demonstrations of mind reading have been carried out, and those experiences aren't cancelled by psychics not being able to do it out under controlled conditions?

Just to be clear, what sort of power do you (all one inch punch believers can reply) think a one inch punch creates? Is it like a good boxer's jab, or half that, or a cross?

That's how you debunk things, yes. Those psychics, when they can't duplicate the feat under lab conditions, have been debunked. People can and have done effective one-inch punches in laboratory conditions.

My own one-inch punch is similar in power to my best jab. My hook blows it clean away, as does my straight. It isn't the One True Punch, but it's useful.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Jul 21 2011, 06:09 PM) *
There are ways to achieve walking through security successfully without ditching 'ware. Opt for bioware and openly available cyberware, maybe permits for a few bits, and you're set. Not missing out on too much.


It's mostly a matter of fluff and not a matter of crunch regarding my team.
Blitz66
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Jul 21 2011, 06:24 PM) *
It's mostly a matter of fluff and not a matter of crunch regarding my team.

I get that, but crunch-wise... Ouch.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 21 2011, 07:04 PM) *
As mentioned earlier, Mythbusters did some testing and found that it generated about half the force of a full-swing punch. So, enough to stagger an opponent, especially if he wasn't expecting it.


Actually, the world's best ninja's one inch punch was half as powerful as the completely untrained host's full swing.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Jul 21 2011, 07:27 PM) *
I get that, but crunch-wise... Ouch.


Looking at the 900 Karma versions with 100k extra creds, I'd say they should be able to put up a good fight, if they have to. Sure they don't fight like Streetsams but like soldiers, what is exactly what they have been before turning to the shadows.
sabs
Given that you can deliver a one inch punch in a micro second, where as a full punch has tons of lead time and is stupidly easy to block or dodge. The power of the 1 inch punch isn't in it's sheer power, it's in it's ability to connect and cause reaction slowdown.

My 1 inch punch isn't particularly strong, although if I center it, and sink into it it's enough to make someone with pads flinch. But I get to land it fairly often, because it comes out of nowhere with almost no warning.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Jul 21 2011, 07:10 PM) *
That's how you debunk things, yes. Those psychics, when they can't duplicate the feat under lab conditions, have been debunked. People can and have done effective one-inch punches in laboratory conditions.

My own one-inch punch is similar in power to my best jab. My hook blows it clean away, as does my straight. It isn't the One True Punch, but it's useful.


Please show me a lab test that demonstrates the power of the one inch punch then. At some point you'll get home to your computer so you won't have to copy paste from your phone.

So, you think it is like your jab, that's not too shabby even if the jab is the weakest punch. How have you tested this? Do you use it in sparring and fighting? Why do you think MMA fighters don't use one inch punches in the clinch or dirty boxing situations, or when a fighter is in the guard and the bottom guy keeps him tugged in so he can't swing his punches properly?

HunterHerne
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 21 2011, 01:49 PM) *
Given that you can deliver a one inch punch in a micro second, where as a full punch has tons of lead time and is stupidly easy to block or dodge. The power of the 1 inch punch isn't in it's sheer power, it's in it's ability to connect and cause reaction slowdown.

My 1 inch punch isn't particularly strong, although if I center it, and sink into it it's enough to make someone with pads flinch. But I get to land it fairly often, because it comes out of nowhere with almost no warning.

And padding is what? PPP gear...
sabs
One inch punch requires sinking, and centering and it's actually a full body punch. It's about explosive strength, and even though your fist only travels one inch before hitting a target, it doesn't stop moving. You still put your hip and shoulder and body weight into it, and you keep extending your arm to keep on going. It's not something you can do while on the ground. Really, very few effective punches can be done from laying prone on the ground.

MMA doesn't do a lot of stuff, using MMA as a benchmark is stupid, because they're not trying to kill each other.
The one inch punch, giving me an opening to do a tiger claw to the throat, isn't helpful in MMA. Because the tiger claw to the throat is illegal. It's like Snake Style. You'll never see someone in a friendly competition use real versions of the various Snake styles. Because Snake isn't about pummeling and rendering someone unconcious. It's about causing massive soft tissue and internal organ damage.
sabs
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 21 2011, 05:52 PM) *
And padding is what? PPP gear...


Padding in this case would be 1.5 inches of rubber and foam covering:
Chest
Head
Hands
Groin
Redjack
Please stay on topic. If you would like to discuss another topic, start another thread.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 21 2011, 01:57 PM) *
One inch punch requires sinking, and centering and it's actually a full body punch. It's about explosive strength, and even though your fist only travels one inch before hitting a target, it doesn't stop moving. You still put your hip and shoulder and body weight into it, and you keep extending your arm to keep on going. It's not something you can do while on the ground. Really, very few effective punches can be done from laying prone on the ground.

MMA doesn't do a lot of stuff, using MMA as a benchmark is stupid, because they're not trying to kill each other.
The one inch punch, giving me an opening to do a tiger claw to the throat, isn't helpful in MMA. Because the tiger claw to the throat is illegal. It's like Snake Style. You'll never see someone in a friendly competition use real versions of the various Snake styles. Because Snake isn't about pummeling and rendering someone unconcious. It's about causing massive soft tissue and internal organ damage.


Which is something I've stated before about how effective using any competition as a means to guage their "martial" (not "martial art") unarmed ability is, regardless of the style in question.
Traul
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 21 2011, 05:42 PM) *
I just realized recently that there is, in fact, actual gear in Runner's Companion. I have had the book for ages now and only looked at the character options and qualities. Among other things, the MAD jammers and Magnetic Diffusion Shielding from the book pretty much mean that cyberware should rarely ever set off a MAD scanner.

The MAD jammer simply reduces the rating of the MAD scanner by it's rating, up to 3 points. The MDS subdermal sheathing increases the threshold needed to detect shielded equipment by it's rating, up to 3.

Since MAD scanners only go up to rating 3, potentially it has to score four successes on three dice. If the jammer is activated at the time of scanning, that's four hits needed on zero dice. It won't help against cyberware scanners, but most low to mid security places only use MAD scanners, since those are "good enough" for day-to-day.

Actually, Cyberware scanners cost the same as MAD scanners, are easier to find ( 4R instead of 6R), have a longer range (15m instead of 5), go up to Rating 6 and can also detect non-metallic weapons. Per RAW, MAD scanners are completely outclassed and should have disappeared. But Runner Companion completely does not mention any way to circumvent cyberware scanners. You're probably better off merging them: MAD scanners go the way of the dodo and the counters presented in Runner Companion work against cyberware scanners.
KarmaInferno
While it is true that Cyberware Scanners SHOULD have supplanted MAD scanners all over, for some reason in the SR universe they have not. You still tend to see MAD scanners in publicly accessible buildings, like offices and shops and clubs. Cyberware scanners in the various books tend to show up in high security areas.

No, I don't know why that is, and the SR fluff makes no explanation. So I guess if your GM follows the books, then anti-MAD stuff is more useful. It depends on your campaign.

SR3 had RAM shielding, but that vanished since then somehow. I suppose it's just rolled into Signature Masking.




-k
Glyph
High skills, martial arts, and other things can make a tough mundane character, but the problem is that anything they can get, the street samurai or adept can get - and add magic or augmentation to it. Sure, you can get +3 DV from martial arts. The street samurai can do that, then get bone lacing and muscle augmentation. The adept can do that, then get critical strike and killing hands.

Unaugmented mundanes can be effective if you are playing in a campaign like Doc Byte's, where they are built on a lot of points, and all light on the 'ware. Or if you are playing a tweaked-out mundane in a campaign with poorly-built or low-powered augmented or awakened characters. Or if you are the sole specialist in a certain area (such as covert ops), meaning no one will be overshadowing you.

But generally, being an unaugmented mundane is a huge disadvantage. You can offset it a bit with a high Edge, decent gear, and some tactical thinking. But it's tough. You ever see Blade Runner? You are basically Deckard, and everyone else is a replicant.
Blitz66
EDIT: topic-squash.
Smirnov
To get a bit back on topic, I'll quote my last question, it seems it was lost in the discussion.

QUOTE (Smirnov @ Jul 21 2011, 12:23 PM) *
Getting a bit back to the topic, can a character volunteraly initiate surprise attack? BRB states that 'if there is a surprise, blah-blah-blah' and the elvish martial art has a bonus to surprise attack. Does it mean that I, as a player, can initiate a surprise attack with all subsequent rolls and actions? And if yes, how would Adrenaline Surge affect these rolls? You roll fo surprise as usuall, but go first nevertheless?
sabs
It could be that Cyberware scanners are a privacy issue? Where as MAD Scanners are not?
Certain types of Cyberware are legal, and yet embarrassing. It does seem weird that a world like Shadowrun would care about that. It's not a cost issue. Maybe it's a slow moving bureaucracy issue. MAD scanners are installed, they work generally well, and it would cost money to replace them with cyberscanners. So instead, you leave them where they are, maybe as they break and you need to replace you start putting in cyberscanners, but then you have to pay for two different maintenance contracts, and the maintenance software for your skillwired techs.

HunterHerne
As far as initiating surprise, it depends. You can initiate combat when everyone else is talking, but that would require a surprise check for everyone else to be able to act in that first pass, including team mates. It would also give you the ambush bonus, I think (+6). And, again, if you pull out your gun and shoot, your friends have no warning (if you did warn them you might, I would allow the NPC's a perception and/or sense motive test to see something was up). If I were GM, I would also give you a point of Notoriety if you did this in say, a Johnson meet, or another discussion.
Traul
QUOTE (Smirnov @ Jul 21 2011, 09:23 AM) *
Getting a bit back to the topic, can a character volunteraly initiate surprise attack? BRB states that 'if there is a surprise, blah-blah-blah' and the elvish martial art has a bonus to surprise attack. Does it mean that I, as a player, can initiate a surprise attack with all subsequent rolls and actions? And if yes, how would Adrenaline Surge affect these rolls? You roll fo surprise as usuall, but go first nevertheless?

When you plan a Surprise attack, it's an Ambush and the rules for it are right after the Surprise rules: +6 to the surprise test and the ambusher cannot be be surprised. Adrenaline Surge allows you not to read the overly complicated last paragraph since you will always go first grinbig.gif
Stahlseele
Basically, he is asking if he can make it so he is surprised and gets his bonus . .
Rubic
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 21 2011, 12:01 PM) *
Sort of like how plenty of convincing demonstrations of mind reading have been carried out, and those experiences aren't cancelled by psychics not being able to do it out under controlled conditions?

Just to be clear, what sort of power do you (all one inch punch believers can reply) think a one inch punch creates? Is it like a good boxer's jab, or half that, or a cross?

One Inch Punch isn't the same as the psychics, because it CAN be carried out when outside of those controlled circumstances. You tell somebody to take their 1 inch punch into a laboratory with a sensor to detect the force of the blow, and they can still produce that same force exerted on the wooden board, or their associate, or the training pads, or whatever. Now, if you tied the person's arm down so they couldn't move it, that is a situation that would make it physically impossible, like removing the drive train from a car and saying that if it doesn't run, then cars are a sham and don't really work.

Mythbusters had a MMA competitor perform a 1 inch punch for their Kill Bill coffin scene myth, and he was able to produce 1430 lbs of force. Not everybody will be able to do that much, some might be able to do more.
Falanin
Smirnov, I run surprise this way.

If you are undetected when you attack, surprise is automatic. Snipers often get this. If you're hoping to get this bonus for a hand-to-hand attack, your target will generally get a perception check to detect you, which, if successful, drops you from this bonus to the next one. (or possibly to the third state, if they detect you more than a round in advance)

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, AND you detect your enemy before that, you generally get the +6 ambush bonus. You'd also get this bonus if you were being friendly when you whip out your gun (assuming your target believed the friendly act).

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, and you don't detect your opponent either, you roll for surprise as normal. This also happens in situations where everyone is suspicious. but nobody knows when or if the guns are coming out.

The classic western quick-draw duel (and similar situations) skips surprise entirely, and just goes straight to initiative.
Makki
if A is not an obvious hostile, B should not get a perception check. drawing a gun and shoot is one action phase, there is no time in between, to see what's coming. So unless B is prepared for a fight, A gets +6 to the surprise test. I just don't see it otherwise
sabs
Draw and shoot is one action phase, but it doesn't include take aim. So there are penalties.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 21 2011, 03:45 PM) *
Draw and shoot is one action phase, but it doesn't include take aim. So there are penalties.


Unless you quick draw.
Rubic
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 21 2011, 02:39 PM) *
if A is not an obvious hostile, B should not get a perception check. drawing a gun and shoot is one action phase, there is no time in between, to see what's coming. So unless B is prepared for a fight, A gets +6 to the surprise test. I just don't see it otherwise

It'd probably be a Con check to determine how well you hide your intent.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 21 2011, 03:52 PM) *
It'd probably be a Con check to determine how well you hide your intent.


I agree.
Glyph
It also depends on the nature of the negotiations. If they are actually amicable negotiations, sure, you have a good chance of surprise. But a lot of the negotiations that shadowrunners deal with have the threat of impending violence in the back of everyone's mind - meets with a Johnson, dealings between two underworld factions, gangs, or corporations - drawing a gun won't exactly be a big shock under those circumstances. You might still get the drop on them, though, if you have a high enough initiative.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 21 2011, 05:31 PM) *
It also depends on the nature of the negotiations. If they are actually amicable negotiations, sure, you have a good chance of surprise. But a lot of the negotiations that shadowrunners deal with have the threat of impending violence in the back of everyone's mind - meets with a Johnson, dealings between two underworld factions, gangs, or corporations - drawing a gun won't exactly be a big shock under those circumstances. You might still get the drop on them, though, if you have a high enough initiative.


I might still give them +3. Or, maybe +6 to him, and +3 to everyone else in the immediate area (Maybe only the Johnson, one of his guys, and two PC's are allowed in the room. I've done that, and let the m choose who. But then the Johnson was a troll, and the second was a mage.)
Smirnov
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 21 2011, 11:14 PM) *
Basically, he is asking if he can make it so he is surprised and gets his bonus . .

That's right. I know the rules for ambush, surprise and all. The rules state 'in case there is a chance of surprise...', and I want to know if I can deliberately make that case of surprise happen not only in situations when we are setting an ambush, but also in case of surprise attack. Something iaijutsu-style - kill him before he knows what killed him.


QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 21 2011, 10:53 PM) *
As far as initiating surprise, it depends. You can initiate combat when everyone else is talking, but that would require a surprise check for everyone else to be able to act in that first pass, including team mates. It would also give you the ambush bonus, I think (+6). And, again, if you pull out your gun and shoot, your friends have no warning (if you did warn them you might, I would allow the NPC's a perception and/or sense motive test to see something was up). If I were GM, I would also give you a point of Notoriety if you did this in say, a Johnson meet, or another discussion.

That's pretty much social complications, of which I'm aware, but sometimes it just comes to this. Conserning the team, there can be a code phrase or even mind signal if we have proper spells (and we have smile.gif ), so they will know something is on.


QUOTE (Falanin @ Jul 21 2011, 11:21 PM) *
If you are undetected when you attack, surprise is automatic. Snipers often get this. If you're hoping to get this bonus for a hand-to-hand attack, your target will generally get a perception check to detect you, which, if successful, drops you from this bonus to the next one. (or possibly to the third state, if they detect you more than a round in advance)

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, AND you detect your enemy before that, you generally get the +6 ambush bonus. You'd also get this bonus if you were being friendly when you whip out your gun (assuming your target believed the friendly act).

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, and you don't detect your opponent either, you roll for surprise as normal. This also happens in situations where everyone is suspicious. but nobody knows when or if the guns are coming out.

The classic western quick-draw duel (and similar situations) skips surprise entirely, and just goes straight to initiative.

Thanks for the rundown. Adding to it Con roll to deceive the target, and I have what I need. Thanks!
And with Krav Maga I can aim as free action, so no worries here either.
Rubic
QUOTE (Smirnov @ Jul 21 2011, 05:23 PM) *
Thanks for the rundown. Adding to it Con roll to deceive the target, and I have what I need. Thanks!
And with Krav Maga I can aim as free action, so no worries here either.

Just remember, one free action per turn (2 if you include speaking, though you cannot substitute another action for speaking).
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