Melee is a loose term that isn't strictly tied to being armed, actually, and I'd argue that that the other close combat skills aren't really that much worse than Unarmed for defensive purposes. Sure, Unarmed tends to be my favorite-- especially if you're a troll and netting (relatively) cheap strength-- since short of being incapacitated it should be available. But a lot of the time Clubs isn't all that far behind in usefulness since it covers most improvised weapons--including say, a rifle or pistol-- and in many cases a reach bonus will help offset any improvised weapon penalty present. Even blades isn't so bad given that ceramic knives are pretty easy to get into places and can be laced with toxins while bayonets give you an easy way to nullify an attacker's reach bonuses so you don't get stabbed before you plug them. Beyond that, the defensive damaging disarm combo is one of the few tricks I'd actually consider out of the Martial Arts section and for that you need a weapon.

Have you decided on a MetaType yet?
If not, make it a Fomori Troll Variant.
In Combination with Astral Hazing, you are more or less untouchable for most magical stuff.
Else, i think there's a Dwarf or Ork Variant with Arcane Arrester too . .

Depends. It's been disputed a number of times (and I tend to agree, based on my reading of the book) that Spells cast into the Astral space being hazed aren't affected.

The Dwarf variant with Arcane Arrester is a Gnome.

Arcane Arrester is what would reduce magic cast directly on you. Astral Haze would nerf any Adept or Mage in close range. So, basically, only a ranged adept would be a magical threat to you, and that merely places it circa the threat an equivalent cybered enemy would be.

This is true.

Takes care of Wards, quickened spells, foci, and spirits and other magical critters, if you can hug them.
you'd be one of the few cases where the fire elemental would be reluctant to try and hug you to death.

Great, now I have a character idea for Huggy-Troll

xD

Nothing unrealistic about cyberware, and magic exists in the SR universe, which you just have accept as realistic for the setting.

None of that however should change the relative power between a fist and a bullet though. And the knockout power martial artists got with Arsenal is just plain ridiculous. Melee was fine in relative power, it is a simple fact that a few bullets will take you down fast but two trained fighters in a cage can go round and round for 3x5 minutes - and that's wearing shorts, not armor.

A focused martial artist, however, can do massive damage to an opponent unarmed or with weapons. Bruce Lee trained himself to a degree that was considered beyond human potential, and the build point/quality sink you get into during character creation would indicate this. 35 (or even 20) BP worth of Martial Arts would, realistically, indicate a heavy personal focus and unusual dedication to martial arts by that individual. Combined with appropriate physical stats, this would be a person who could punch about as fast as a bullet (lacking the range), attack weak points for massive damage (obligatory giant enemy crab reference), or wield a long sword with the focus and accuracy of a scalpel and fury of a natural disaster.

The standard character would be unable to reach such plateaus, and the issue of range makes it a disproportionate investment. However, excelling at melee combat, even in the real world, can lead to startling and unexpected results. Also, in the real world, such unusual focus is usually a disproportionate investment, and as such most people, even those with a natural aptitude and the potential to reach such heights, would not pursue such a path.

There are plenty of very gifted athletes who did martial arts most of their lives, train full time for fighting and compete professionally in for example MMA, and none of them have the ability you speak of. They'll easily and quickly walk over joe average, but an average fighter won't be that simple.

Even Bruce Lee's fights often took plenty of time. But we don't know how good a fighter he really was, he didn't compete.

There is also the fact that competition in this time is not lethal. Sport fighters are trained to be powerful, but not trained to kill. In order to guage actual prowess in combat, one would have to look at how they do in actual, combat with the intent of ending the existance of the opponent.

This, however, is very hard to do (especially in any terms of legality).

Also, in many sport fights, the fighters are told to keep it going. Longer fights (as long as it isn't too long) leads to better ratings.

There was a video taken of how fast he punched (vs a can). Granted, we have much better filming technology now, but even what was recorded back then was fast enough that most scientists would have sworn his tendons should have snapped. Considering the training he'd put in at that point, you could say a 6 Str, 7 Agi, 7 Skill. Against another person, the punch might not have been effective, but a solid hit would have broken bones and injured internal organs. 14 dice + Aim (x2) (- Called Shot, perhaps) to hit, and 4 + success + Martial Arts DV boosts (+ Called Shot?), an impressive dice pool against most humans, until you call in Magic, Cyber, and body armor (which realistically lends encumbrance, though the RAW compromise is understandable).

i seem to keep doing that ^^

In my opinion, some of these people in reality that break the rules of what would be naturally possible in theory, might count as spike-baby adepts. Obviously, not especially powerful adepts, only effectively magic 1, maybe 2. Still, that's enough to matter at least a little.(one or two "dice" to tests can make one better enough to matter, at least, more often.)

Bruce Lee is an example of a Legendary character. His One Inch Punch is a devastating technique, which can't be properly modeled using SR4.5 rules. If someone wanted it, I could fluff it out a bit to make it work, but it can't be pulled off unless you're exceptionally good at it.

Starting Qualities:
Aptitude (Unarmed) 10 BP
Exceptional Attribute 20 BP

Picked up after creation:
Unarmed 7
Agility 7
Strength 6

Martial Arts Qualities:
Arnis De Mano (+1 Called Shots to Disarm; +1 DV to Clubs; damage on called shots to disarm) 15 BP
Boxing (+2 DV to Unarmed; +2 Defense Vs. Unarmed) 20 BP
Krav Maga (Take Aim as a free action) 5 BP
Kung Fu (+1 to dodge, block, parry, and Unarmed DV) 20 BP
Muay Thai (+2 DV Unarmed, +1 defense vs Unarmed) 15 BP
Pentjak-Silat (+1 to Called Shots to increase damage; +1 on Attacks to Knockdown) 10 BP
Tai Kwon Do (+1 DV Unarmed; +1 Unarmed when attacking multiple targets; +1 on Attacks to Knockdown)


Just on unarmed DV, 3 (Str/2) + 2 (Boxing) + 1 (Kung Fu) + 2 (Muay Thai) + 1 (Tae Kwon Do) + (attack successes) = 9 (stun) + Successes, or 7P + successes if using the Vicious Blow maneuver. 1 More could be added via the Wildcat style, though I did not feel that fit the idea. Bruce Lee was also skilled in counters and trapping (Ripsote, Set Up, and Finishing Move maneuvers), which could increase his DV further. Further boosts from aiming.

That's a large investment compared to a shotgun, but this would be quantifying a person who devoted his entire life to martial arts. As I pointed out earlier, this is not a matter of an efficient or effective build/goal. Both IRL and in Shadowrun, this build would be entirely unrealistic to expect of a character, this was merely my way of quantifying via the game rules what one man had achieved in the real world.

Bruce Lee was probably an adept, guys. : ) Anyway looking at this, you forgot the Martial Arts Specialization for Unarmed, which is practically two free dice.

The interesting thing about Bruce Lee was, he was essentially the father of modern Mixed Martial Arts. His concept of studying many different arts, taking what works from each of them, and putting them into your personal toolbox is the entire basis for MMA today. In fact, almost all modern schools teach the toolbox metaphor. He would have multiple martial arts and maneuvers under his belt. If I was thinking Shadowrum, I'd definitely make him an Adept. Critical strike plus a lot of knockback is a good way of representing the "Show version" of the one inch punch. (The real one is much, much nastier....)

However, Bruce Lee was far predated by the Greek martial art Pankration. Pankration itself was essentially mixed martial arts as a martial art, though Boxing and Greco-Roman Wrestling were the only practiced martial arts in the region from which to directly draw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

Pankration is considered to be the oldest martial art in the world, although the "purity" of the techniques is somewhat in question, as there were quite a few centuries where there weren't any active practitioners. I am familiar with it, although not extensively. But while the idea of taking concepts from other martial arts has been around for a while, Bruce Lee was the first one to come public with the idea. Much of the evolution in fighting techniques and philosophy stem directly from Bruce's writings. What doesn't come from him, mostly comes from Ed Parker, who was responsible for the popularity of karate in the United States. I have some connection to both lineages, so I've studied some of both. There's some interesting ideas that can happen when those two philosophies are combined.

Getting somewhat back on topic, a mundane Unarmed Combat specialist with low cyber could be effective. You've got more points free to pick up Martial Arts edges, and won't need much in the way of gear. You don't have to spend BP on Magic, like an Adept, and you can save the points that a street sam would need to buy cyber. You do, however, need to specialize heavily. Shadowrun is a game about a team of specialists, working together. While glaring weaknesses is never a good idea, you can get away with soft spots in your skill set, knowing that other team members will make it up for you. If you really want to save points, go human and buy Edge as high as you can. You'll need it: it can buy you extra IP's in a pinch, and without initiative boosters, you'll need it.

Getting a bit back to the topic, can a character volunteraly initiate surprise attack? BRB states that 'if there is a surprise, blah-blah-blah' and the elvish martial art has a bonus to surprise attack. Does it mean that I, as a player, can initiate a surprise attack with all subsequent rolls and actions? And if yes, how would Adrenaline Surge affect these rolls? You roll fo surprise as usuall, but go first nevertheless?

The one inch punch is a gimmick. It's a stage trick. It isn't powerful and is more like a shove than a punch. There is nothing going on that couldn't be done much better with a regular punch.

That's because you know nothing about it.

The secret behind the one inch punch, as developed by Bruce Lee, was to generate a lot of power in a very short distance. If someone closes into you to grapple, you need to be able to generate a lot of force to take them out. You don't have the luxury of a full draw, so you have to rely on other tricks.

What you've seen is the stage version. Sending people flying looks good for the audience, but it's really not that effective in a fight. The trick is to leave that power inside the opponent, much like a hollow point round. The real punch leaves all that explosive force inside your body, doing a lot of damage.

The other important thing to realize is what it teaches you. Try this trick: hold a phone book against your chest, for padding. Have a friend punch you from one inch away. You might feel something, but not much. Now, have him repeat the punch, only now at a six-inch draw. You'll feel a lot more power. Next, have him go full-draw and unload. Guess what happens? You're on your butt.

People who learn the one inch punch learn it to increase their punching power. They can generate a lot of power from only an inch away, so what do you think happens when they can get a full draw on you? The answer is: they get even more powerful.

And if you want to know how I know this: I trained under James DeMile. I have an open invitation to train with Patrick Strong. I've never trained personally with Taky Kimura, but I went to his son Andy's first wedding. If you want to look them up, you'll see that they are all original students of Bruce Lee. I am very aware of the Bruce Lee legacy, and I know that what he actually developed and what other people teach is not the same thing at all.

Wrong. A Shove does not manage to break boards as they do with this punch.

In the end its savagery that wins a fight... period.

You say that as if there were something wrong about that o.O

I really don`t think so. Savagery can give you surprise factor, with being the only crazy slot willing to bite the guy with the gun, but in general, smart tactics and better gear win the day.

If what you're saying is, the one inch punch is something you do to learn to punch properly, whatever. People have all sorts of training practices.

As long as we agree that the one inch punch isn't a proper punch. As you say, with a full draw they punch much harder.

One, I said more like a shove, not exactly like a shove.

Second, most board breaking is also just gimmicks. Weak wood broken along the grain.

The idea that you can throw a powerful punch with only an inch to accelerate your arm is just silly. You can put your body behind it and get some whip into it, but you just can't built up proper speed over such a short distance.

Or maybe kung fu monks have magic powers. Chi also hardens their skin to iron so they can block swords with their arms and stop spears with their abdomens.

Training, especially LIFE LONG Training allows People to do silly shit . .

I've seen this proven empirically false. A one-inch punch can be absurdly powerful if you do it right, and crash test dummies agree. It was even on TV last month, some reality show focusing on amazing feats.

Of course, it was no surprise to me, because the principles the monk used were similar to what I teach. I'm most effective and powerful from a range people don't think other people can strike from effectively. Not some esoteric internal style, either. Classic military techniques.

*Cough*The Joker*Cough*

The joker wouldn't last 10 seconds in the shadowrun universe. He only gets to continue to succeed because his primary opponent will never kill him and he has plot armor.

Also the last couple pages I felt like I logged into bullshido.

This is the Internet. Use Google. It's not hard to find proper empirical tests of the one-inch punch. I'd post it myself, but I'm on my phone and typing with my thumbs, and it's a pain.

Along with what Lurker says about the Joker having plot armour and his primary opponent, the Joker also uses brains with savagery. He may not be the brightest in a IQ sense, but he is very capable of reading situations, and acts with a chaotic fashion. It is strategically sound to do the unexpected, but not usually when you are just rushing a group of guys with more armour/firepower.

You are presuming i care, again this is dumpshock not Bullshido, I don't mind the discussion I am just amused by the placement of it. We could always resurrect the Krav Maga thread

When you want to do the unexpected, keep in mind that people usually don't expect things because they would be silly. Prepare and have something ready that people think you CAN'T do, not that you WOULDN'T do.

"You can't prepare for the unexpected. All you can do, is prepare to be surprised"

You, of course, are right. And the Joker still does that, more often then not. Even if he remains within the boundaries of human capability, he breaks the rules of strategy by doing things that no one can properly think to do, because they are weighed down by logic.

If a rational person can't think of it, that's because it's not a rational thing to do. That doesn't mean just conventional or unconventional. It means that the action is or is not beneficial to you. The Joker pulling out clever surprises, sure, no problem. The Joker winning on pure crazy off the cuff? Doubt it.

The character I've mentioned isn't a 'low-dog' at all. In fact he's a member of a themed team of 6 Ex-MET2Ks I've created and has his role in the team.



I don't know how the charakter would work in a 'normal' team. Like I said, he's part of a themed team. All of them are very low on ware. That was part of the concept as well. All of them should be able to board an airplane without being arrested at the front door.

---

Unfortunately I lack the time to translate the band into English.

There are ways to achieve walking through security successfully without ditching 'ware. Opt for bioware and openly available cyberware, maybe permits for a few bits, and you're set. Not missing out on too much.

I agree. And that's what I mean. The Joker wins the victories he does because of crazy savagery and thinking, not just the crazy savagery.

Also the inexplicable lack of willingness of a lot of people to kill him dead, or even fail to save his life sometimes.

I do agree with the idea that sheer aggression will do a whole lot to win a conflict, which is what the 'savagery' thing was about, but it's not a magic bullet.

Yeah, it is amazing that people believe such myths in this day and age. Jamie hyneman from mythbusters could punch with twice the force of the world greatest ninja's one inch punch.

I see what you did there.

One-inch punch isn't difficult, it's effective, and has been demonstrated repeatedly. Sure, there are negative tests. They test some people who can't do it. But then there are positive tests, and when you're testing a technique that some know and some don't, you have to debunk the positive tests, because finding a million people who can't write a symphony is not proof that symphonies can't be written.

There are a lot of BS myths about martial arts. The idea that a lot of power can be generated in a short distance is not one of them. You are claiming to know more about kung fu than Bruce Lee, and it is amazing.

I just realized recently that there is, in fact, actual gear in Runner's Companion. I have had the book for ages now and only looked at the character options and qualities. Among other things, the MAD jammers and Magnetic Diffusion Shielding from the book pretty much mean that cyberware should rarely ever set off a MAD scanner.

The MAD jammer simply reduces the rating of the MAD scanner by it's rating, up to 3 points. The MDS subdermal sheathing increases the threshold needed to detect shielded equipment by it's rating, up to 3.

Since MAD scanners only go up to rating 3, potentially it has to score four successes on three dice. If the jammer is activated at the time of scanning, that's four hits needed on zero dice. It won't help against cyberware scanners, but most low to mid security places only use MAD scanners, since those are "good enough" for day-to-day.




-k

I looked at those, and did some of my own research on other factors (like how hard it is to break a rib, etc.), and while no, the one inch punch may not be as powerful as a full punch, a trained person using it can be effective. And that's all it needs to be, is effective. You may not break their jaw, but if you crack a rib, they guy squeezing you to death will still likely back off a little.

A lot of people mistake One Inch Punch with Dim Mak or some other crazy devastating attack. Kill Bill showing one-inch punches breaking heavy wood planks probably does not help much.

It's an attack designed to stagger an opponent and catch him off guard. That's really all. You usually expect to follow it up with additional attacks while the opponent is recovering.



-k

Sort of like how plenty of convincing demonstrations of mind reading have been carried out, and those experiences aren't cancelled by psychics not being able to do it out under controlled conditions?

Just to be clear, what sort of power do you (all one inch punch believers can reply) think a one inch punch creates? Is it like a good boxer's jab, or half that, or a cross?

That's every attack.