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MikeKozar
I'm working on a write-up of my defense-in-depth security template, and I'm looking at my Heavy Responders. This is a tricky slot to write-up in advance, since the whole idea of a HRT is to put the fear of corporate wrath into the PCs; A Heavy Response Team needs to represent unquestionably overwhelming force. At the same time, I'd like to inject some of the corporate personality that Shadowrunners are rebelling against, in the sense that these guys are cookie-cutter cannon fodder, not as special or as tricked-out as the PCs.

My current write-up has them with a bodyware/gear budget of about 100k each, for a team of 12-18. They wind up with full military combat armor with a gas seal, a ballistic shield, an Ares Alpha with Smoke, Flashbang, and CS grenades. Wired Reflexes 1, Reaction Enhancers 3, Muscle replacement 1 and aluminum bone lacing. I like this write-up because it feels like a serious threat, while being individually less impressive then the PCs. With all the soak dice, these guys won't die quickly, and generous use of grenades, supressive fire, and aimed bursts give them a good chance at taking down a PC. Equip a few of them with Panther XXLs, and we have a serious match.

Anyway, that's what I'm kicking around. Not invincible, but effective, if I'm judging it right. I'm curious what you guys use for your ultimate corp team, short of Prime Runners. What do you generally equip your HRTs with?

Dakka Dakka
I don't know your PCs but this team looks like TPK if played tactically sound, especially if your PCs (4 I assume) are confronted all 12-18 of them. Contrary to D&D rising numbers of opponents do not give diminishing returns, quite the opposite actually.

What's wrong with the SpecOps teams form the BBB? Red Samurai and or Tir Ghosts should do alright. You may want to outfit them with some gear form other books though (MilSpec armor, TacNet etc.)

If at all possible, to "put the fear of corporate wrath into the PCs", add a mage/Spirit with counterspelling to the team. Otherwise it might be a pretty onesided encounter.

I don't think they would need more ware, just give them decent to good skills and use them. Infiltration for ambushes (Surprise!) makes even below average shooters very dangerous, especially when there are lots of them. Perception will save their lives, if the PCs try to ambush them. They should also be good in athletics. That way they will probably not tire before the PCs in a chase. A hacker may also be a good idea depending on how secure your PCs networks are.
"Damn my clip just ejected"
"Mine too, and where is my map and FFID?"
"Oh crap!" *sees flashbang rolling in.*
Smokeskin
If your PCs guns and armor make milspec armor and assault cannons necessary, then go with it - I'd go with less, but then I don't like heavy hardware campaigns.

I agree with the power level of the HRT team, but go with fewer but very savvy guys that employ dirty tricks. Spirit support, invisible point men, ambush teams that are concealed, nausea gas, thermal smoke and ultrasound vision, radar sensor sniping through walls.

Imo the ideal encounter with an HRT goes like this: They blindside the runners, runners beat the assault off but are hurt, pinned down and in lots of trouble, but eventually catch a small break and manage to make a dramatic escape before reinforcements close in. Sort of like than scene in Leon.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jul 30 2011, 04:05 AM) *
What's wrong with the SpecOps teams form the BBB? Red Samurai and or Tir Ghosts should do alright. You may want to outfit them with some gear form other books though (MilSpec armor, TacNet etc.)


You mean other then the fact they are a big joke? Seriously the best of the best with more or less limitless government budgets and training have trouble challenging the hacker's some of my players build let alone the street sam. Personally I don't have a problem with TPK if the players take on a high end response force head on or stick it out for a protracted fire fight with milspec armed opposition. The red samurai and tir ghosts to me look about where I'd expect sixth world SWAT to be, not those premier and legendary organizations.

PoliteMan
What corp are you developing this for? Ares should have a different HRT from MCT, which should be different from Shiawise or SK.

Part of this is if you want them to be uniquely threatening but uniform, you need a common theme tying them together. When 6 identical HRT guys burst with medium Machine Guns and military armor, yous should know it's Ares, whereas MCT sends in two Cyborgs. That's what makes the Red Samurai so great, they can be very uniform because of their distinctive appearance and it's easy to tie them into a fighting style, for example, they might easily be the best close combatants out of all the corp HRT teams because of the focus on bushido.
Omenowl
I found the Tir ghosts and special forces teams to have stats simply too high. Seems like these guys were more like 20 year veteran team leaders rather than guys with 10 years of experience.

Anyway, I would go with 3 helicopters each carrying 6 to 8 troops (a team). 2 teams and 1 veteran team. This will help prevent a single missile from taking out the entire HRT. The HRT maybe contracted out with only a few teams available in the entire city. This could give players a chance to do a diversionary run to tie up the HRT, while they do the real run somewhere else.

Basic teams: The basic ware would be similar to the lonestar cybersuite for two teams. Each team would have a mage primarily for counterspelling and banishing and a watcher spirit. Magic probably 3 with spellcasting/banishing of 3+ speciality for counterspelling. Stats would be in the 3 to 4 range with the odd 5 stat to represent a singularized specialty. Each would have SWAT armor equipped with mobility or strength additions and chemical seal. Helmets would contain flare compensation, radio, thermal and low light options. At least one member would have an assault rifle with grenade launcher (equipped with gas grenades). 1 would have a ballastic shield, 1 with an automatic shotgun and underbarrel netgun, the rest would be equipped with SMGs. Each weapon would be equipped with a dual selector for ammo. Stickn N Shock would be one clip and the second clip would be APDS. Goal is to capture the runners first, with the lethal option only if a member goes down. Remember the team may not know who is friend or foe and they don't want to kill their own employees.

The veteran team would be your basic archetypes. Street Samurai, Hacker, Combat Mage, and Drone rigger. Include a specialty type such as a sniper, a summoner/banisher, and/or utility mage. Final is your leader. Assume tacnets are being used and controlled.

Assume initial response is offsite mage sending in spirits and an offsite spider sending in drones to contain the shadowrunners. The idea is to keep the players pinned down until the HRT arrives. The HRT will take 20-30 minutes to arrive. They need to get the alert, suited up and arrive onsite. Once the HRT is onsite they will try to give the characters an escape route to get them out of the facility.
Faelan
I rarely have a problem making the presented NPC Templates matter. Heavy Response Teams are going into a facility or location after the shit has hit the fan. The individual load out and skill of each member while important on a basic level is ultimately not where they make their pay. Their mission is to recover any lost data, material, or personnel, while eliminating or capturing the individuals responsible for the breach in security. They will not fly in guns blazing unless they are 1) 100% percent sure there is no surface to air, air to air, or credible magic threat, or 2) they are retarded and want a flashy way to commit suicide. If they are flying in they will secure the perimeter, cover avenues of approach and escape, with fire, personnel, or mechanical assets. This includes air, ground, water, and underground routes. They will do so as quietly as possible, and utilize any video feeds to prioritize targets. Your runner team has to leave the facility at some point, and when it does the highest threat individual is taking a .50 caliber Raufoss round to the grape. They are not going to rush in and become fodder they are going to wait and ambush your team, and any equipment upgrades would be solely for the purpose of avoiding detection up to and including spirits with concealment. In my games if the team has stuck around long enough for a Heavy Response Team to arrive they are probably looking at a near TPK, unless they have pulled out all the heavy shit, have a big enough team to cover the approaches while they screw around and eat up time, or go completely over the top with prepared explosives, but in general they are screwed.
PoliteMan
Faelan:
You've never had a demolitions PC in a game before, have you?

I think what you've recommended is very sensible but it sounds like something out of a SWAT manual. I don't think that would work against shadowrunners for a couple reasons:
#1 There is no reason to surrender. You can negotiate with modern criminals and they'll generally surrender because jail beats death. Shadowrunners have no legal rights, especially on corporate turf. The odds of them surrendering is low, which causes additional problems because...
#2 They're very well armed. Even excusing the inevitable demolitions enthusiast, your average shadowrunner probably has enough firepower and cunning to cause millions of nuyen in "distractions" before you finally gun them down, which is bad because....
#3 They're probably in a very important area, surrounded by valuable and fragile equipment/people.

Besides, efficiency isn't very dramatic.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Jul 30 2011, 10:33 AM) *
Faelan:
You've never had a demolitions PC in a game before, have you?

I think what you've recommended is very sensible but it sounds like something out of a SWAT manual. I don't think that would work against shadowrunners for a couple reasons:
#1 There is no reason to surrender. You can negotiate with modern criminals and they'll generally surrender because jail beats death. Shadowrunners have no legal rights, especially on corporate turf. The odds of them surrendering is low, which causes additional problems because...
#2 They're very well armed. Even excusing the inevitable demolitions enthusiast, your average shadowrunner probably has enough firepower and cunning to cause millions of nuyen in "distractions" before you finally gun them down, which is bad because....
#3 They're probably in a very important area, surrounded by valuable and fragile equipment/people.

Besides, efficiency isn't very dramatic.


Ummmmm... Surrender is always a better option than Death. Just Sayin'. Besides, you tend to get some great stories resulting from a Capture over a Death. With Death, your Story ends. With a Capture, it may only just be beginning. smile.gif
PoliteMan
Except if the corp captures you, they can do things worse than death to you, overwrite your memories, torture, experimentation. Surrendering only makes sense if you expect some kind of baseline decency out of your captors: a la Geneva Convention or criminal law. Yes, fighting your way out might be a longshot, but the odds on surrendering are probably even worse unless you have someway to assure they won't just shoot you once you drop your gun.

And yes, you can get some great stories out of surrenders. I don't think that would be the norm in SR and based on the TPK comments here, I don't think it's the norm at a lot of tables.
suoq
I'm a little host on how to build a standard HRT for a game with starting characters ranging from the rulebook Street Sam to a dumpshock Street Sam. Unless I know what dice pools your team is throwing (and then everyone starts arguing about that) I can't tell if you're under or overpowered.

From a player point of view, HRT teams don't scare me. They make a lot of noise and my job is to be gone BEFORE they get there. If I'm fighting a HRT, I'm either the distraction or I've messed up so badly I deserve to go back to chargen. From a certain perspective, HRT are an asset to the shadowrunners. If I can get a HRT team to kill my target or simply completely destroy any forensic evidence then so much the better. And the more heavily armored they are, the easier it may be to look like one and not be detected by any onlookers once HRT is on the scene. (Half the team shoots the joint up, HRT gets called, the other half infiltrates as HRT in the smoke and confusion, using as many Stonebrooke Smokeclouds as necessary.)

The main problem with a HRT is that they're designed to assault a defended position and I don't see it as my job to defend any position. I see it as my job to recon, plan, execute quickly, and disappear. My hero is D. B. Cooper, not Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 30 2011, 01:06 PM) *
I'm a little host on how to build a standard HRT for a game with starting characters ranging from the rulebook Street Sam to a dumpshock Street Sam. Unless I know what dice pools your team is throwing (and then everyone starts arguing about that) I can't tell if you're under or overpowered.

From a player point of view, HRT teams don't scare me. They make a lot of noise and my job is to be gone BEFORE they get there. If I'm fighting a HRT, I'm either the distraction or I've messed up so badly I deserve to go back to chargen. From a certain perspective, HRT are an asset to the shadowrunners. If I can get a HRT team to kill my target or simply completely destroy any forensic evidence then so much the better. And the more heavily armored they are, the easier it may be to look like one and not be detected by any onlookers once HRT is on the scene. (Half the team shoots the joint up, HRT gets called, the other half infiltrates as HRT in the smoke and confusion, using as many Stonebrooke Smokeclouds as necessary.)

The main problem with a HRT is that they're designed to assault a defended position and I don't see it as my job to defend any position. I see it as my job to recon, plan, execute quickly, and disappear. My hero is D. B. Cooper, not Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.


I have to agree with you here. The HRT can be as tough as they come, but the players should be given enough time to escape before they show up, even if he uses other means to slow the team down (Drones, spirits, run of the mill security, even a security door or twenty). Regardless, there should be two versions of the HRT, in my opinion. The team that assaults, making themselves known and fortifying a position to block most (if not all) possible exits, and a smaller Tactical Response Team, whose job it is to go in and find the intruders, capturing or killing them as necessary.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 30 2011, 06:37 PM) *
Ummmmm... Surrender is always a better option than Death. Just Sayin'. Besides, you tend to get some great stories resulting from a Capture over a Death. With Death, your Story ends. With a Capture, it may only just be beginning. smile.gif
The problem is, in SR violent confrontations are usually over very quickly - for either side. So any demands for surrender will most likely be met by the PCs either trying to get away or starting to reduce the opposition. The more likely outcome is,if the HTR is successful, that the PCs will be either unconscious or dead. In the former case the GM can freely decide if it is capture or death.

@ HunterHerne: I agree on (at least) two types of teams, but those will rarely operate separately.
Faelan
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Jul 30 2011, 11:33 AM) *
Faelan:
You've never had a demolitions PC in a game before, have you?

I think what you've recommended is very sensible but it sounds like something out of a SWAT manual. I don't think that would work against shadowrunners for a couple reasons:
#1 There is no reason to surrender. You can negotiate with modern criminals and they'll generally surrender because jail beats death. Shadowrunners have no legal rights, especially on corporate turf. The odds of them surrendering is low, which causes additional problems because...
#2 They're very well armed. Even excusing the inevitable demolitions enthusiast, your average shadowrunner probably has enough firepower and cunning to cause millions of nuyen in "distractions" before you finally gun them down, which is bad because....
#3 They're probably in a very important area, surrounded by valuable and fragile equipment/people.

Besides, efficiency isn't very dramatic.


Wrong. I have had demo experts, problem is I have done plenty of demo IRL, so I kind of know what it takes. Most teams can't afford principally the time to set shit up correctly so they have to waste explosives, which are never cheap, and well are not universally accessible.

Not a SWAT manual, basic CQB for which I was among other subjects an instructor. There is no reason sound tactics would not work against runners.
1. Capture was the last option, if you did not notice, and likely after incapacitation, not negotiation.
2. So is the HRT and they have a lot more back up, have probably practiced at the facility prior to the runners attempt to steal shit, and don't have to hack systems to be left alone.
3. Not after they leave it or did you not read the post. I would not hit them in the facility, they have to leave, they are getting ambushed, and I have no problem giving an HRT team whatever they need to remain undetected. Hell they might even be followed to scoop up additional intel. Top priority after being compromised is making sure no one does it again and making examples always helps.

Your demo guy just so you understand the reality of demolitions has to have time, access, and equipment. Wireless anything in a high security facility is non existent, assume it is completely jammed, and will require good old fashioned real wires, detonators, blasting caps, detcord, or even blackpowder with pull timers. This all assumes once again time and access, both of which are tight on a run. Blowing additional holes are easily accounted for by the HRT reserve which is left in the air. Once again if HRT shows up you are screwed, and if you are not the GM is simply not running them as a threat.
suoq
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jul 30 2011, 11:58 AM) *
Wireless anything in a high security facility is non existent, assume it is completely jammed, and will require good old fashioned real wires, detonators, blasting caps, detcord, or even blackpowder with pull timers
Assuming normal radio frequenciesare completely jammed that leaves, at a minimum, visual spectrum. So get any device that measures the amount of light. Trigger it with a laser. Point it as some FAB and trigger it with magic. Put a smartlink on it and copy an agent onto the smartlink. (Add autosofts as the GM requires.) Use a microtapper bug as the trigger and use the building's wires to communicate with the microtapper.

Note that if the wireless is completely jammed, the HRT has no standard communication/tacnet. It may well be that the team wants the HRT to come on site to force the area to drop the jamming on HRT frequencies, allowing the detonation to take place wirelessly on those frequencies.

Out of curiosity, how many out-of-the-box solutions do you want to deal with your in-the-box HRT team?
Faelan
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 30 2011, 02:46 PM) *
Assuming normal radio frequenciesare completely jammed that leaves, at a minimum, visual spectrum. So get any device that measures the amount of light. Trigger it with a laser.


Requires line of sight. Who is going to control sight lines? Not your runners.

QUOTE
Point it as some FAB and trigger it with magic.


Once again line of sight. Is your tiny team really going to be spread out enough to cover all these.

QUOTE
Put a smartlink on it and copy an agent onto the smartlink. (Add autosofts as the GM requires.)


Since communicating with the agent is out what determines when he blows?

QUOTE
Use a microtapper bug as the trigger and use the building's wires to communicate with the microtapper.


Assuming you have control of all interior systems and assuming the wires are not cut.

QUOTE
Note that if the wireless is completely jammed, the HRT has no standard communication/tacnet. It may well be that the team wants the HRT to come on site to force the area to drop the jamming on HRT frequencies, allowing the detonation to take place wirelessly on those frequencies.


Except an HRT won't need comm. Comm is nice but real operators don't require it.

QUOTE
Out of curiosity, how many out-of-the-box solutions do you want to deal with your in-the-box HRT team?


What do you think tactics are? They are not some cookie cutter method. Sure if you suck, you might have a checklist you work down covering contingencies, and it ends there. High Threat Response Teams are essentially the Megacorporate answer to Spec Ops. Where do you think a lot of runners come from? They sure as hell don't grow on trees.

My point about all of this is that they are nearly as good as you on a one for one basis with the skills that matter. They outnumber you at least 10-1. They have air superiority. They have all the assets they need, and you don't. They train without comm, they train at the facility you are hitting, they play through tons of different scenarios where your runners are planning to play. They have every advantage. To suggest they have to be in the box idiots who are doomed to be cannon fodder is frankly garbage. Your runners only advantage is surprise. Get in and get out as quickly as you can, and if you don't, if you wait for the big guns to arrive, expect a near party kill at best.
suoq
I only need line of site to devices that have their own line of site to other devices. There is no reason, given the devices in this game that laser sighting can't be used to sync all the timers.

QUOTE
Since communicating with the agent is out what determines when he blows?

He's an agent. He blows when he's programed to blow, be that a detectable event or a timer. He can be programmed based on our recon.

QUOTE
Assuming you have control of all interior systems and assuming the wires are not cut.

I don't need control. I need access. And if they're cutting their interior wires as part of their defense plan, then we can use that to monitor them. If wires are cut, we're blown and need to move.

QUOTE
Except an HRT won't need comm. Comm is nice but real operators don't require it.
Good. The HRT is crippling their communication. That's knowledge we can use to our advantage.

QUOTE
They have every advantage.
No. They have major disadvantages. We are attacking them with our plan based on our knowledge about them. It is our JOB to know who they are, what they do, and how they have been trained to defend the facility and to use that knowledge to OUR advantage. It is our JOB to exploit their training and practices. It's not our job to stand our ground against them, but that's what kind of opponents HRT, by their very name, are designed to fight against. We are not there to play their game and that's their disadvantage.

If we were there to take hostages until our demands were met, yes, we would be dead meat. If if your runner team is taking that job where a HRT operates, then yes, they deserve to die. If your demolition teams sits and slugs it out with HRT then, in my opinion, you should feel free to kill them.
Ascalaphus
Surrender is different depending on who you're dealing with. In an MCT Zero-Zone, there's this nifty No Survivors policy. Those HTR teams probably gas the area with Ringu.

On the other side of the spectrum, Horizon would probably flood the radio spectrum with AR summaries of their extremely reasonable terms of surrender; "If you'll just put down your weapons and not hurt anyone or damage anything, we can find some middle ground that lets everyone live happily ever after..."

MCT is kind of rabid about security; they'd rather lose money on a damaged facility, than let anyone get away. That's a daring business decision, but the result is that very few people dare to attack a Zero-Zone.
Horizon on the other hand has a vested interest (their oh-so-precious reputation) in making sure no employees end up traumatized. They'd employ suave hostage negotiators, and a dash of mind control if your consumer profile indicates they can get away with it. All to limit damages.

Many corporations will be somewhere in the middle; the HTR leader might decide that letting the runners leave the compound would be a tactically better choice, because that gives less chance of collateral damage. But in all cases, it should feel like a sort of cat and mouse game; the HTR team controls all the exits, and is trying to nudge the runners into a killing ground of the HTR's choosing.

The HTR wouldn't assault the runner's location; just close off all the exits, and let the runners come to the HTR's (by then fortified) position, where the terrain will be totally against the runners.



Compare it to a SWAT team in a hostage situation: they surround the hostage-takers, try to find a good angle to shoot, but they don't engage until they're certain they'll win. Unless the runners start shooting hostages/seriously damaging the location; at that point it's a matter of salvaging, rather than preventing damage.
Faelan
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 30 2011, 07:23 PM) *
I only need line of site to devices that have their own line of site to other devices. There is no reason, given the devices in this game that laser sighting can't be used to sync all the timers.


Once again assuming you have had time, assuming you had all of that figured in your combat load out, and assuming unexpected events have not disrupted your line of sight.

QUOTE
He's an agent. He blows when he's programed to blow, be that a detectable event or a timer. He can be programmed based on our recon.


Only good if you definitely want to blow something up.


QUOTE
I don't need control. I need access. And if they're cutting their interior wires as part of their defense plan, then we can use that to monitor them. If wires are cut, we're blown and need to move.


Assuming the system you hacked into is the actual security system. When someone takes over the security of a facility IRL there are often no records of changes. Your comments are based on you knowing everything and them being unprepared.

QUOTE
Good. The HRT is crippling their communication. That's knowledge we can use to our advantage.


Not really you as a runner are more reliant on comm, by killing comm they likely deprive you easy command and control of your drones, they force a small team to become individuals with no support and allow their numbers to speak for itself. You lose the only force multiplier left to you.

QUOTE
No. They have major disadvantages. We are attacking them with our plan based on our knowledge about them. It is our JOB to know who they are, what they do, and how they have been trained to defend the facility and to use that knowledge to OUR advantage. It is our JOB to exploit their training and practices. It's not our job to stand our ground against them, but that's what kind of opponents HRT, by their very name, are designed to fight against. We are not there to play their game and that's their disadvantage.


You are assuming you know everything about them, where as in the real world that is a very rare occurrence, and in the game as a GM I would make it exceedingly difficult to obtain all that information. As to you not standing your ground, what did I say in my last post...that's right your best bet is to not be there when they get there, if you are, you are likely screwed.

QUOTE
If we were there to take hostages until our demands were met, yes, we would be dead meat. If if your runner team is taking that job where a HRT operates, then yes, they deserve to die. If your demolition teams sits and slugs it out with HRT then, in my opinion, you should feel free to kill them.


Once again if you are there when they get there you are likely dead. If you stick around you deserve what you get. If you took a job asking you to go toe to toe with HRT then you are likely suicidal. My point has always been that 1) you can't really expect to win a direct confrontation, 2) you can only expect to slow them down and buy time to escape, likely at the cost of someone dying, 3) you can always expect things to go wrong, 4) you should always assume they know as much about you as you know about them, and 5) assuming it is a one way information street is a conceit you will only get in a game. Your mileage obviously varies, I can't help but inject some of my real world knowledge and experience into the game. The run that never gets detected never happens. You will get detected the question is when. On a good run you have gotten what you wanted, and are already in the process of vacating the premises. On a bad run they were expecting you. If you don't get detected then security was garbage, or you pulled a perfect con.
suoq
I'm going to try to explain this in a simpler way, in order to try and avoid the pissiness this forum seems to be the egg sac for.

HRT is designed, by the very nature of it's mission, to be applied against OVERT operations.
Shadowrun teams should be, by the nature of their missions, performing COVERT operations.

As such, HRT teams are not the enemies of a Shadowrun team. They are more suited to be the TOOL of a Shadowrun team than the oppressor against the Shadowrun team.

And yes. I am ASSUMING the Shadowrun team knows what they're doing because knowing what they're doing is their job. If they don't know what they're doing, then yes, they're going to die, because they're not doing their job. If the people at your table are the idiots you seem to be saying they are, then yes, the HRT should be capable of killing them.
Miri
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jul 30 2011, 05:46 PM) *
Not really you as a runner are more reliant on comm, by killing comm they likely deprive you easy command and control of your drones, they force a small team to become individuals with no support and allow their numbers to speak for itself. You lose the only force multiplier left to you.


Good ECCM programs.
Faelan
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 30 2011, 07:55 PM) *
I'm going to try to explain this in a simpler way, in order to try and avoid the pissiness this forum seems to be the egg sac for.


I know what you mean wink.gif

QUOTE
HRT is designed, by the very nature of it's mission, to be applied against OVERT operations.
Shadowrun teams should be, by the nature of their missions, performing COVERT operations.


Yes, and one your Shadowrun team has been detected and HRT is called in your cover is blown.

QUOTE
As such, HRT teams are not the enemies of a Shadowrun team. They are more suited to be the TOOL of a Shadowrun team than the oppressor against the Shadowrun team.


If you are the one calling them in to lock down a facility right after you have slipped away for instance, sure.

QUOTE
And yes. I am ASSUMING the Shadowrun team knows what they're doing because knowing what they're doing is their job. If they don't know what they're doing, then yes, they're going to die, because they're not doing their job.


...and I am ASSUMING the HRT team knows what they're doing because knowing is their job. If they don't know what they're doing, they get killed by a bunch of annoying Shadowrunners, see how that works. Tactical decision games are what you do to prepare for combat. WHen a facility is part of your job you will run hundreds of TDG's involving the facility and different scenarios. The facility is one of your primary duties. For runners it is just another facility, and you get one shot to do it right. If the HRT team is not running through all these TDG's then your runners deserve to school them. The runners need to remain COVERT and once they become OVERT they need to disappear as quickly as possible before they become DEAD.
Faelan
QUOTE (Miri @ Jul 30 2011, 07:59 PM) *
Good ECCM programs.


Because all runners have milspec programs, and the security for the corp that makes it does not wink.gif
Blitz66
Faelan, you have a number of well-reasoned arguments as to why HRT forces would completely pwn the face off any group of runners that got caught in a run. Well done.

I don't think I'd ever play a combat-oriented character in a game you were running. If such a character has to do his job, he's already dead, apparently. Just hasn't yet gotten the memo.
Miri
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jul 30 2011, 06:05 PM) *
Because all runners have milspec programs, and the security for the corp that makes it does not wink.gif


Getting hold of a rank 5 or 6 ECCM program isn't THAT hard. It is considered a Hacking Program and thus costs Rating x 1000 and availability (Rating x2)R
CanRay
"I am Heavy Weapons Troll... And this, is Sasha!"
Faelan
QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Jul 30 2011, 08:09 PM) *
Faelan, you have a number of well-reasoned arguments as to why HRT forces would completely pwn the face off any group of runners that got caught in a run. Well done.

I don't think I'd ever play a combat-oriented character in a game you were running. If such a character has to do his job, he's already dead, apparently. Just hasn't yet gotten the memo.


Sorry my combat oriented players understand a couple of things. 1) Violence will happen, 2) when it does happen make sure it is completely overwhelming, quick, and fairly quiet, 3) numbers always win in the end don't be there when that happens, and 4) anything that can go wrong will go wrong, when that happens see 1, 2, and 3. They only get the memo when they underestimate their enemy and stick around to find out.

So to put it simply. Rent a cops local armed security...sure no problem. Bodyguard...sure but it might be a real challenge. Army of dudes in milspec armor who have all the toys you could want and are almost as well trained as you...did you buy a cemetery lot because you will likely need it in the near future.
LurkerOutThere
All attack/defense situations basically boil down to this:

Defender chooses terrain. He may change and modify that terrain according to his ability and requirements. You can turn the corp lab into a fortress where the scientists live on site and nothing gets in or out, but it will raise it's own set of problems. Likewise a mall has to remain open to it's customers.

Attacker chooses time and circumstances of attack.

Now Shadowrunners are traditionally the attacker, for most people a HTRT response presumes the Shadowrunners have become the defenders, either defending their safehouse from a corp cleaner squad or the corp facility from oncoming forces while they finish cracking the safe/hacking the mainframe/whatever.

In the above scenario the HTRT will have lots of advantages but all of them are not guaranteed. For example lets say the HTRT is a subcontractor, a KE swat or firewatch team. Chance are they havn't drilled specificly for that building and instead have a set of blueprints and operations plan. They may have some level of security access but in all likelyhood the building will either be working agaisnt them or in some cases will have had it's defenses subverted by the runners (at least a good runner team).

So zgain, in a stand up fight your average runner team should get mauled by a HTRT if the HTRT has a chance to shift the conflict to where it's optimal. A shadowrunner teams job is to make the situation as non optimal as possible. Sometimes the simplest way to do that is not to stick around for the fight, cover your tracks when you leave, and not cause so much property damage it becomes financially attractive to send a HTRT after you.
MikeKozar
For me, the HRT should definitely be a TPK in a head-to-head fight. These guys are the reason why the anarchists and rival corps haven't simply blown the hell out of the megacorp. The big difference between Shadowrun and other RPGs is that you are almost always on a hit and run mission - you shouldn't be able to fight your way to the top of a skyscraper, killing everything in your way, and then loot the CEO's office. You're not the first one to think of that, and the last guys to try all got killed, probably by the HRT. The threat of HRT dictates a lot of the interesting mission objectives in Shadowrun - we need to infiltrate, block the alarms, silence the guard, and get out fast in case we missed something. To that end, if the PCs blow the objective, trigger the alarm, and ignore warnings to run, they need to meet something that will make them regret it.

Using a large squad of augmented soldiers seems to drive that home pretty well for my table - if they're not outnumbered 3:1, they usually can carry the day. Someone suggested using a pair of cyberzombies for MCT; Prime Runners don't last very long against our team, and I can't imagine cyberzombies would fair much better. I would be interested to hear about a build that could wipe out a shadow team, though.
HunterHerne
After re-reading some of the manatech section in Arsenal, might I suggest giving HTRT pointmen a Lucifer Lamp? Not sure how anyone else runs these, but it seems like it would allow anyone to "see" astral forms.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 31 2011, 05:32 PM) *
After re-reading some of the manatech section in Arsenal, might I suggest giving HTRT pointmen a Lucifer Lamp? Not sure how anyone else runs these, but it seems like it would allow anyone to "see" astral forms.


Ok, as HunterHerne said correctly, it's a High Threat Response team, not Heavy Response Team.

This, quite frankly, also means they get called in - more or less automatically - when the shit hits the fan, and they are not just good at assaulting fortified positions. They are good at doing everything that normal corpsec can't do: Counter-infiltration, hostile submission, hostage rescue, etc. Basically whenever a few corpsec bio-monitors go blank these guys will get flashing lights in their centers of operation.

However, it also means they will need to do stuff to make sure they meet the threat in the correct manner, which is recon. And that gives PCs some time to get the hell out, or prepare a counter-strategy. Of course, it's always the question of whether you wish to roll or simply decide these things. I would do a mix - maybe give them one meaningful roll for each round or other time interval the PCs dillydally.
In the end, I think it's a question of information:
Can the HTRT get enough info quickly enough to apply the correct tactics? If so, then pure numbers won't matter so much: Surpise and prepared tactics will do the trick.
If not, they will make mistakes, their numbers will matter more. And then the runners just have to plow through their ridiculous personal defences, while being pounded by ridiculous firepower - whether backed by high DPs is a seperate matter, and depends very much on the table. In those cases where they basically did not get enough info, they can also just fly in with a big show of force, because ultimately, scaring the enemy is better than getting killed. I think that's part of their public face: Everyone knows HTRT will come in with heavy weapons blazing. What they don't know is that while Team 1 is flying in with a fully lit up gunship and heavy personal armour, team 2 is actually inflitrating the compound. (If there is a point to that, valuable infrastructure or personel, for instance.)

IMHO their dice pools are secondary, they can be lower, even by a good deal, than PC DPs. What you can do is simply metagame their tactics (that is, use a direct counter to prepared PC tactics), or really just play them smarter. Of course equipment also plays a part: hardened armour and the like are good for the showy Team 1. And the other team gets full stealth gear, silenced weapons, spirits with concealment, etc.

So you end up with a two-fold threat: One team with high defences, the other with high stealth. Both have good firepower and above average DPs. So if the PCs are caught in the middle, they should be toast. However, if they manage to either overrun or sneak by the showy team, of out-smart or out-gun the stealth team, then they have a chance for escape.


suoq
I must be missing something here.

1) What is the goal of the HRT/HTRT? My impression is that it's to secure the area that they are tasked to protect.
2) What is the goal of the Shadowrun team? My impression is that it's to do a job undetected and then get out.

From my point of view, once HRT/HTRT is Oscar Mike, the Shadowrun team has either: a) failed to do their job undetected or b) has deliberately pulled HRT/HTRT to a location as part of their plan. At that point, the objective of getting out matches nicely with HRT/HTRT securing the now abandoned area.

Why are the two groups fighting each other. What happens at your tables that causes this to happen?
onlyghostdanceswhiledrunk
QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 1 2011, 04:43 PM) *
I must be missing something here.

1) What is the goal of the HRT/HTRT? My impression is that it's to secure the area that they are tasked to protect.
2) What is the goal of the Shadowrun team? My impression is that it's to do a job undetected and then get out.

From my point of view, once HRT/HTRT is Oscar Mike, the Shadowrun team has either: a) failed to do their job undetected or b) has deliberately pulled HRT/HTRT to a location as part of their plan. At that point, the objective of getting out matches nicely with HRT/HTRT securing the now abandoned area.

Why are the two groups fighting each other. What happens at your tables that causes this to happen?



In the case of my table it would be that the players get cocky, forget immersion or really REALLY roll an ass-ton of glitches. Plus I have quite a few guys who arent good at common sense and therefore have to be taught that certain things can be done but will also be done to them.

Faelan
QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 1 2011, 07:43 PM) *
I must be missing something here.

1) What is the goal of the HRT/HTRT? My impression is that it's to secure the area that they are tasked to protect.


Securing the area generally includes taking tactically important positions surrounding the area in question. These include natural egress and ingress points, high ground, any easily defensible positions, or doing so with fields of fire, on call air support, or indirect fire. Once assuming these positions dedicated teams will retain covering positions, while other teams begin the process of either direct assault, or infiltrating and then assaulting, while ongoing drone reconnaissance, humint reconnaissance, hacker probes, and satellite overlook. They will then clear the facility systematically, and after the area is cleared they will then pull in outlying units and finish securing the facility in question. At this point they have hopefully recovered any assets and potentially captured those responsible. If they have not captured them, other teams will begin a manhunt, forensics units will arrive, and everythign will be documented. If the Shadowrunnners did things right they go on the lam and disappear in the night because they were already gone, when the HTRT got there.

QUOTE
2) What is the goal of the Shadowrun team? My impression is that it's to do a job undetected and then get out.


My impression is that going undetected is an occurrence which movies and literature have made to seem far more common than they realistically would be. If that is how you like your Shadowrun, good for you. For me I like a balanced approach, and in this case Shadowrunners will almost always be detected, what matters is when they are detected. The earlier they are detected the greater the chance of failure. If you have ever had to infiltrate into a fortified position, you will understand what I am getting at. It takes hours to get in, and once you do, you better be silencing the opposition, and while you are doing that something is bound to go wrong, hopefully by then your job is almost done.

QUOTE
From my point of view, once HRT/HTRT is Oscar Mike, the Shadowrun team has either: a) failed to do their job undetected or


In my games they almost always fail to do things completely undetected, so the Corporate Po-Po is on the way.

QUOTE
b) has deliberately pulled HRT/HTRT to a location as part of their plan. At that point, the objective of getting out matches nicely with HRT/HTRT securing the now abandoned area.


Generally speaking calling the enemy and getting him to show up intentionally is most often going to be a waste of time, unless they are 1) poorly trained, 2) don't understand their job, or 3) the team has an inside guy to run interference. It's kind of like letting a rabid dog loose in a room you happen to be in, and assuming it will bite the other guy.

QUOTE
Why are the two groups fighting each other. What happens at your tables that causes this to happen?


At my table this has not happened very often. Usually it occurs when the reward is spectacular, and the runners greed gets the better of them, instead of leaving like they should. If they play smart the two never meet.
PoliteMan
QUOTE (Faelan @ Aug 2 2011, 09:30 AM) *
Securing the area generally includes taking tactically important positions surrounding the area in question. These include natural egress and ingress points, high ground, any easily defensible positions, or doing so with fields of fire, on call air support, or indirect fire. Once assuming these positions dedicated teams will retain covering positions, while other teams begin the process of either direct assault, or infiltrating and then assaulting, while ongoing drone reconnaissance, humint reconnaissance, hacker probes, and satellite overlook. They will then clear the facility systematically, and after the area is cleared they will then pull in outlying units and finish securing the facility in question. At this point they have hopefully recovered any assets and potentially captured those responsible. If they have not captured them, other teams will begin a manhunt, forensics units will arrive, and everythign will be documented. If the Shadowrunnners did things right they go on the lam and disappear in the night because they were already gone, when the HTRT got there.

There's three things about this that are bugging me:
#1 It sounds like it works well on your table but it seems a little...hardcore to me, especially for new players, many of whom come in with a very combat-centered mindset. I think for most groups, running HRT like this is asking for a TPK.
#2 On the realism, I just don't buy this from a business perspective. If you're dropping a dozen elite guys with PC+ level gear on a target area, complete with magical, matrix, and drone support, and you have enough of these to respond to a threat to any of your facilities within 10 minutes (a random number, but it seems pretty quick for response) then you're probably spending more on security than you're making off the facility. Remember, not only does your facility have all the usual business expenses, the HRT doesn't include regular security to keep people from getting in. This is in my opinion the most hardcore option and also the most expensive, and a global megacorp focused on the bottom line is probably going to find a cheaper alternative.
#3 Again, megacorp policies will differ. Say your PCs are kidnapping Researcher Frank when HRT rolls in, now they're trapped in a room full of delicate, expensive things: research equipment, nexi, people. MCT might bust the door down and eat the loss but Shiawise or Horizon is probably going to let the runners get out and track them down later; better to let the dangerous criminals steal one researcher that they might be able to recover later than watch all the researchers get gunned down in a firefight.
Blitz66
What gets me is, once you accept Faelan's premise about the infallibility of HTR teams, there's little reason why you can't extend it to on-site everyday security. Do they have home-field advantage? Of course they do - they work that facility every day, the security system is theirs, they have every territory-related advantage the higher-paid guys have plus more, because their unit is specialized in this one location. Do they have a procedure to handle intruders? Sure they do. They just aren't issued their gear and kicked out into the hallway to keep suspicious-types away. Training happens. Do they have access to sweet gear? Of course they do. Maybe they don't have top-notch milspec stuff, because that's expensive, but there's not much chance a group of runners is going to out-resource them. Are they motivated enough to do the job properly? Of course they are. They're on-site security. Anybody who wants to commit crimes in the facility might just kill them to get the opportunity to do so.

You don't find mall cops pulling serious security duties in a sensitive area. Mall cops are mall cops because you don't see serious action at a mall. Maybe on-site security is not the best-trained or equipped in the world, but at worst they're like regular infantry compared to elite forces. Regular infantry with a defensive position and a numbers advantage is not to be trifled with.

Unless, maybe, you can thwart them with some combination of stealth, speed, power, cunning, and judiciously applied mayhem. And once you accept that, for all their advantages, soldiers are fallible and strategies confoundable, then why is HTR granted such extreme reverence? They're not any less mortal than the rest. The unit is not a plot device. They're just more enemies trying to stop you from accomplishing your objective and getting out clean. Highly trained and well equipped, sure, but not guaranteed defeat by any means.
crash2029
Personally I see HRT vs Runners as Merrimack vs Monitor rather than Cortez vs Montezuma. But that's just me.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Aug 2 2011, 09:33 AM) *
What gets me is, once you accept Faelan's premise about the infallibility of HTR teams, there's little reason why you can't extend it to on-site everyday security. Do they have home-field advantage? Of course they do - they work that facility every day, the security system is theirs, they have every territory-related advantage the higher-paid guys have plus more, because their unit is specialized in this one location. Do they have a procedure to handle intruders? Sure they do. They just aren't issued their gear and kicked out into the hallway to keep suspicious-types away. Training happens. Do they have access to sweet gear? Of course they do. Maybe they don't have top-notch milspec stuff, because that's expensive, but there's not much chance a group of runners is going to out-resource them. Are they motivated enough to do the job properly? Of course they are. They're on-site security. Anybody who wants to commit crimes in the facility might just kill them to get the opportunity to do so.

You don't find mall cops pulling serious security duties in a sensitive area. Mall cops are mall cops because you don't see serious action at a mall. Maybe on-site security is not the best-trained or equipped in the world, but at worst they're like regular infantry compared to elite forces. Regular infantry with a defensive position and a numbers advantage is not to be trifled with.

Unless, maybe, you can thwart them with some combination of stealth, speed, power, cunning, and judiciously applied mayhem. And once you accept that, for all their advantages, soldiers are fallible and strategies confoundable, then why is HTR granted such extreme reverence? They're not any less mortal than the rest. The unit is not a plot device. They're just more enemies trying to stop you from accomplishing your objective and getting out clean. Highly trained and well equipped, sure, but not guaranteed defeat by any means.


Personally, I don't think anyone is infallible.

What is the major problem with ANY kind of security? Lazy people. And that's that. People get lax, because they go to work there EVERY DAY doing the SAME BORING ROUTINE. Standing guard somewhere is probably the most boring job in the world, until something happens. You don't see smart people taking these jobs because smart people probably would be completely destroyed by the boredom. Unless they have constant drills or the installation is in a high risk area where people are always looking for trouble, guard duty sucks, as a job. It's not even like soldiers, who probably do guard duty on rotation, and other stuff in between. These guys do these stupid jobs all the time, all their lives.

So there might be some who go out of their way looking for trouble, but others will just settle into this comfortable routine, where every bit of extra work just distracts them from their method of dealing with the boredom. (Image linked trids, for instance. Especially the oh so powerful security rigger will probably have a penchant for sideline entertainment.)

There is also that other thing: If you are a security guard, doing a crappy job, do you really WANT to find trouble? Do you really look hard for it? The rigger might, because he's far removed, and trashing a few drones won't hurt him. But a meat guard, IMHO, just really doesn't want to find the trouble, or else the trouble might find him. In any case the biggest line of defence for a guard is his RFID tag biomonitor. (Never take a job where you don't get one.)

And all these things are the reason you need an HTRT: A team that attacks never has these problems of actually NOT being on the alert. No doubt they will need a while to get there, during which the normal security is hopefully whipped into shape and does their part in stalling the intrusion - all the while hoping they don't get killed. I would say that they definitely need a while to arrive on site - even hours. But then I would also say that most runs shouldn't realistically be over in five minutes. Getting in and out takes time, and if they raise an alarm it might even take longer.
Faelan
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Aug 2 2011, 01:48 AM) *
There's three things about this that are bugging me:
#1 It sounds like it works well on your table but it seems a little...hardcore to me, especially for new players, many of whom come in with a very combat-centered mindset. I think for most groups, running HRT like this is asking for a TPK.


Sticking around for the HTRT should likely result in TPK, especially with new players.

QUOTE
#2 On the realism, I just don't buy this from a business perspective. If you're dropping a dozen elite guys with PC+ level gear on a target area, complete with magical, matrix, and drone support, and you have enough of these to respond to a threat to any of your facilities within 10 minutes (a random number, but it seems pretty quick for response) then you're probably spending more on security than you're making off the facility. Remember, not only does your facility have all the usual business expenses, the HRT doesn't include regular security to keep people from getting in. This is in my opinion the most hardcore option and also the most expensive, and a global megacorp focused on the bottom line is probably going to find a cheaper alternative.


Having a team of these within 10 minutes essentially means in Shadowrun that you have a team like this covering a roughly sixty mile radius of a major metropolis. I am sure lesser facilities in out of the way places have response times reaching upwards towards the hour mark and beyond.

QUOTE
#3 Again, megacorp policies will differ. Say your PCs are kidnapping Researcher Frank when HRT rolls in, now they're trapped in a room full of delicate, expensive things: research equipment, nexi, people. MCT might bust the door down and eat the loss but Shiawise or Horizon is probably going to let the runners get out and track them down later; better to let the dangerous criminals steal one researcher that they might be able to recover later than watch all the researchers get gunned down in a firefight.


You might attempt to negotiate with them, hahahaha. The expensive equipment you refer to, and the researcher are all replaceable, your reputation is not. Usually loss of said researcher to the competition or the data in question is a far greater loss.
Minimax le Rouge
QUOTE (Faelan @ Aug 2 2011, 12:19 PM) *
The expensive equipment you refer to, and the researcher are all replaceable, your reputation is not.

The 100.000.000 Nuyen equipement and the Genius who lead your 1.000.000.000 Nuyen research investment are surely repleaceable.
Your reputation could always be preserved, thanks marketing and com. spec.

Let them out, try to negociate, cover it up with your communication specialists. At least, blow them up outside if the negociation go wrong for you.
PoliteMan
QUOTE (Faelan @ Aug 2 2011, 07:19 PM) *
Sticking around for the HTRT should likely result in TPK, especially with new players.

Have you actually had good experiences with TPKs for new players, people just learning the system and setting? Because it seems like the sort of thing that makes people quit.

QUOTE (Faelan @ Aug 2 2011, 07:19 PM) *
Having a team of these within 10 minutes essentially means in Shadowrun that you have a team like this covering a roughly sixty mile radius of a major metropolis. I am sure lesser facilities in out of the way places have response times reaching upwards towards the hour mark and beyond.

60 miles? Ignoring assembling the team, distributing the equipment, briefing, unloading, organizing with the local corpsec, and setting up those wonderful positions you discussed, ignoring all that, you need to be traveling 360 mph minimum to get that 60 mile radius. And in SR, with all the different corp owned airspace, there's no way they're going in a straight line. All that, an expensive helicopter with a skilled pilot to cover, adds a lot to the units cost and you're only going to get than 10 min response time within a 10-20 mile radius.


QUOTE (Faelan @ Aug 2 2011, 07:19 PM) *
You might attempt to negotiate with them, hahahaha. The expensive equipment you refer to, and the researcher are all replaceable, your reputation is not. Usually loss of said researcher to the competition or the data in question is a far greater loss.

Aztech sure seems to find their reputation easy to fix. Do you think SK or Horizon can't spin this stuff? Corpsec teams should respond and do respond but there's limits, and one of those is that they have to be aware of collateral damage. There is absolutely no point in calling in HRT to prevent the Shadowrunners from making off with a researcher if the entire research team dies in the ensuing firefight. Especially not when you can just pay that same SR team (or another one, if you're vengeful) to go steal the researcher back tomorrow.
suoq
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Aug 2 2011, 03:03 AM) *
What is the major problem with ANY kind of security?

Efficiency. Security, by it's nature is not only expensive, it makes a facility less efficient. In order to prevent unauthorized access, it frequently prevents or delays authorized access and a mistake on someone's part means an impact to production.

In security there are three types of requirements for access. Low security requires one type, higher security requires two, heaviest security requires all three:
1) Something you have (key,passcard)
2) Something you are (biometric)
4) Something you know (password)

For all intents and purposes, in Shadowrun, we can add:
3) Something you ccast (spell)

(Just to make the mnemonic "hack").

Assuming the location is spending X on a HRT/HTRT then it seems that they need to be spending an equal or greater amount preventing and detecting intrusion first. This makes for a very inefficient and expensive facility, made even more expensive by the private team that, if the facility is secure, does nothing but train. Given the relative cheapness of building a SCIF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitive_Compartmented_Information_Facility) the size and value of a facility to have a private HRT/HTRT team strikes me as being a very expensive high-risk target. Mentally, I'm thinking Building 500 at STRATCOM, but NORAD is an equally good example. In such a facility we're dealing with multiple layers of security, multiple types of requirements for access and minimal entrances per layer. (Underground, shielded, one or two entrances to the facility, with a single monitored entrance to higher security areas, onion security layers, etc. etc. All of that is cheap compared to a private HRT/HTRT team as described above.)

In such a facility, passing through the layers of security is time consuming and inefficient. To me, one sane way to approach it from a Shadowrun standpoint is to become the HRT/HTRT team and respond to a threat the Shadowrun team themselves creates. Accepting Faelan's premise of facility wide communications shutdown and jamming, the ability to anyone to verify or question the HRT/HTRT's identity is seriously compromised. Then, accepting his premise that they will "clear the facility systematically", that means complete access to HRT/HTRT team, something very hard to fake up for a normal facility employee given the multiple types of requirements. By being the HRT/HTRT team the Shadowrunners can have access to the facility for as long as they can avoid/confuse/keep busy the real HRT/HTRT team. This won't be long, but making sure it's long enough should be part of the planning phase.

As I see it, the presence of a HRT/HTRT team means the facility should be secure. In order to be secure, the facility will end up being inefficient, due to passwords, passcodes, biometrics, etc. In order to do their job efficiently, the HRT /HTRT team needs to bypass that security. In short, such a team is possibly the weakest link in the security of the facility, being easy to misidentify, obeyed by the locals, and granted access above that of the locals.

-----------------

I would like to second Polite Man on his disbelief of a 10 minute response to anything within 60 miles. I would also like to note that in order to have such a response AND have teams trained that means you need a team for every shift sitting ready, plus rotations for teams that are training, plus replacements for individuals either resting or recovering from action or training accidents. So figure out how many people are getting there within 10 minutes and start multiplying by the number of teams to do this 24/7 to find the facility cost of gear, training, personnel, etc.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
@suoq: I would agree with those initial assessments, mostly. However, I think most runners won't be able to pull off such a stunt as you described, easily, seeing as how corps will have means of (more or less) secure identification of their HTR teams - security tags, passkeys, etc. Quite possibly, if a facility goes into high alert it will lock down, and ONLY the HTR team or management reps will have the proper keys to reopen it.

I disagree that the facility will be completley jammed. Rather, heavy ECM might be prescent, but this should be modulated to enable private communications for the HTRT.

Impersonating such a team will not only require looking like them, the entire matrix and security package has to fit, too. (As with, for instance, impersonating soldiers.) While it might be possible to bluff your way past a few guards, the electronic security measures present will simply have to be overriden normally, and at that point you would have been better off to not alert the HTRT in the first place. Also, the investment into impersonating an HTRT could very well be significant, in the range of several 10s of thousands per runner (armour, weapons, commlinks, tags, etc., let alone getting the specifics of these items), so it's clearly only an option for the most lucrative jobs.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Aug 2 2011, 12:33 AM) *
What gets me is, once you accept Faelan's premise about the infallibility of HTR teams, there's little reason why you can't extend it to on-site everyday security. Do they have home-field advantage? Of course they do - they work that facility every day, the security system is theirs, they have every territory-related advantage the higher-paid guys have plus more, because their unit is specialized in this one location. Do they have a procedure to handle intruders? Sure they do. They just aren't issued their gear and kicked out into the hallway to keep suspicious-types away. Training happens. Do they have access to sweet gear? Of course they do. Maybe they don't have top-notch milspec stuff, because that's expensive, but there's not much chance a group of runners is going to out-resource them. Are they motivated enough to do the job properly? Of course they are. They're on-site security. Anybody who wants to commit crimes in the facility might just kill them to get the opportunity to do so.

You don't find mall cops pulling serious security duties in a sensitive area. Mall cops are mall cops because you don't see serious action at a mall. Maybe on-site security is not the best-trained or equipped in the world, but at worst they're like regular infantry compared to elite forces. Regular infantry with a defensive position and a numbers advantage is not to be trifled with.

Unless, maybe, you can thwart them with some combination of stealth, speed, power, cunning, and judiciously applied mayhem. And once you accept that, for all their advantages, soldiers are fallible and strategies confoundable, then why is HTR granted such extreme reverence? They're not any less mortal than the rest. The unit is not a plot device. They're just more enemies trying to stop you from accomplishing your objective and getting out clean. Highly trained and well equipped, sure, but not guaranteed defeat by any means.


Here is the thing about an Urban Defensive Force that many may not truly understand. A propperly trained security Force can generally handle odds greater than they are (Often on several orders of magnitude). I did extensive work in such areas when I was in the Marine Corps. I remember an exercise, at Fort Ord, where an Agressor Squad (12 men; armed with some explosive devices (Flashbangs simulating Grenades and explosive packets), M16's, 3 Squad Automatic Weapons (LMG) and a M60 Gunner (MMG)) defended the Town against an attacking force. These men were given a day to prep the town and familiarize themselves with the layout. This is the scenario that the Fort Ord Facility was designed for, complete with buildings, sewer and storm systems, city hall, the works (it is a complete small town, for all intents and purposes). These 12 men decimated almost an entire batallion prior to their defeat. It took them about 8 hours to do so. Home field advantage is a powerful thing, and training on that home field gives a great deal of control to those defending it.

In Shadowrun, this means that the Shadowrunners MUST rely upon speed and stealth (often mutually exclusive) to accomplish their missions. Once discovered, the odds will be continuously stacked against them until they are captured, they are dead, or they escape. This will not take as long as many think it will. On-site security will likely have their contingencies such that a few minutes is all that is needed to secure the facility. Backup is probably only 10-20 minutes or so away, with Heavier backup likely inbound shortly thereafter if the facility warrants such things.

Now, in a pink Mohawk game, well, the action is the thing. And it can be quite fun, with over the top action, gun play, and explosions controlling the field. In anything else, the characters just cannot afford to be hung up in the area. They need to complete their mission and disengage as fast as they can do so or be overwhelmed by the opposition. No matter how good you think you are, Numbers will eventually matter.

Just my perspective, of course, and your mileage may vary... wobble.gif
Aku
I'm not sure I'd give HRT home field. After all, these teams are allocated to EVERY building that corp owns in a given area. They may have a few guys in the squad that have it for a given building (simulating the "This guy rose the ranks from this place")
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aku @ Aug 2 2011, 06:05 AM) *
I'm not sure I'd give HRT home field. After all, these teams are allocated to EVERY building that corp owns in a given area. They may have a few guys in the squad that have it for a given building (simulating the "This guy rose the ranks from this place")


Maybe, maybe not. But the In-Place Security Force should definitely have such an advantage. Which was the point of my above post. Any force with such an advantage is a force to be reckoned with.

And yes, not all security forces are created equal. But the point still stands. wobble.gif
Traul
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Aug 2 2011, 01:03 AM) *
This, quite frankly, also means they get called in - more or less automatically - when the shit hits the fan, and they are not just good at assaulting fortified positions. They are good at doing everything that normal corpsec can't do: Counter-infiltration, hostile submission, hostage rescue, etc. Basically whenever a few corpsec bio-monitors go blank these guys will get flashing lights in their centers of operation.

I think you are missing an intermediate step here. First, this would make the HTR extremely vulnerable to diversion. Second, the HTR is not the appropriate response to every situation. It is against runners, but the corp has to defend against many other scenarios: gang rampage, AI or spirits on the loose, industrial accident,... The HTR will not move without a confirmed and quantified threat.

The first response should be focused on rescue (we're talking about a biomonitor, right?), recon (drones, offsite security hacker, projecting mage,...) and maybe an intermediate response team designed to assess the situation, handle a small gang on their own and call in the appropriate reinforcements (HTR, riot control, mana hazard,...)
Aku
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 2 2011, 09:07 AM) *
Maybe, maybe not. But the In-Place Security Force should definitely have such an advantage. Which was the point of my above post. Any force with such an advantage is a force to be reckoned with.

And yes, not all security forces are created equal. But the point still stands. wobble.gif


And even with the standard security, I would say maybe, maybe not. To me, part of the (unwritten) aspect of home ground is caring or being interested enough in an area to look for and know where all of it's advantages and disadvantages are. If you're the type of person that can walk the same route for 5 years and go "Huh, i didnt know there was a water fountain there!" You're probably not noticing the little things that give a location it's home ground.

And again, not all corp sec are equal, so while Azentech may have "Fort Az" which is an exact replica where every corpsec unit goes and trains before being let out into the wild, Horizon may not have Fort Hor (pun intended if you say it outloud)
suoq
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Aug 2 2011, 06:46 AM) *
I think most runners won't be able to pull off such a stunt as you described
Agreed. After all, we are, for reasons I don't begin to understand, talking about facilities that appear to be specifically defended against Shadowrunners.

QUOTE
I disagree that the facility will be completley jammed. Rather, heavy ECM might be prescent, but this should be modulated to enable private communications for the HTRT.
If you read above, you'll see I said the same thing as you did. Rather than repeatedly argue against the same point over and over, I just ignored it and went with what I considered was a bad assumption.

QUOTE
Impersonating such a team will not only require looking like them, the entire matrix and security package has to fit, too.
Agreed. The problem with such a facility is that those restrictions are likely to apply to all personnel. With the exception of expense, going in as the HTRT/HRT seems the easiest and safest option to me. I'm open to other suggestions however, but I suspect you'll find that security in this thread is at least as disproportional as the HTRT/HRT team is. If not, I'd like to understand why.
Blitz66
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I'm familiar with the scenario, as I'm prior service military myself. And you'll notice that my post does point out that home-field advantage SHOULD be assumed for on-site security, not just HTR. I am giving on-site security more credit, relative to HTR, than other posters.

My point is that, when you've got speed, stealth, firepower, and a good plan on your side, you can introduce a lot of entropy to the system in a hurry if in need. Still being there when the alarm sounds is Bad News, for sure, but it's time to GTFO, not to shrug and set off the cranial bomb because you're already dead. That is the level of screwed you are when Faelan's version of HTR shows up, and my question is, if HTR is capable of that, why is the on-site security, with as many advantages, something you can fight your way past if things go pear-shaped? Once you accept Faelan's premise of invincible HTR bringing inevitable death or capture, logically, all the other corporate opposition is nearly as capable, so you will never escape if you ever sound the alarm. Never bother taking a combat skill, because it is complete stealth or ruin. This is not a Shadowrun I want to play in.

Though really, I do have to agree that if you're fighting for 15-20 minutes or so, you're probably stuck and therefore screwed, whether or not HTR is called. It's the alleged infallibility of HTR itself that's getting under my skin.

@Aku, again I remind you that on-site security for a sensitive location is not made up of TV mall cops who don't care to see what's in front of them.
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